I Need Help with Poem of the Man-God

[Greg11430]

Your certainly adrift. Slander? How? I didn’t write the CBS News article about the Cardinal who placed the Poem on the Index, therefore subverting a Papal order:

cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

Publishing Maria Valtorta’s writing was in full obedience to the church. The Code of Canon Law: Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I, gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power. Canon law clearly requires that this Papal order to Publish Maria Valtorta’s writings must be embraced with unconditional acceptance and submission. Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, even Canon Law.

 

[Victorious]

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, even Canon Law.

Not true. Canon 1323 states in relevant part:

The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:…2/ a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance…

 

[thistle]

Your certainly adrift. Slander? How? I didn’t write the CBS News article about the Cardinal who placed the Poem on the Index, therefore subverting a Papal order:

cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

Publishing Maria Valtorta’s writing was in full obedience to the church. The Code of Canon Law: Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I, gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power. Canon law clearly requires that this Papal order to Publish Maria Valtorta’s writings must be embraced with unconditional acceptance and submission. Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, even Canon Law.

Why are you attaching so much importance to these private revelations instead of focussing on the public revelations of the Apostles, i.e. Holy Scripture trumps any private revelations.

 

[childofmary1143]

Furthermore, how did the serpent entice Eve? He led her to believe she could be like God. God is omnipotent - all powerful, not all sexful.

God created sex, he inspired Pope John Paul to write Theology of the body and it is mind blowing view of human sexuality. To say that God does not know about sex is heresy.

Furthermore does the bible say what Eve was thinking when she took the apple? So you would have no idea what her reason was for eating the apple. You could say she wanted to be like God but for what specific reason? It could be to experience a deeper sexual experience. After all God did tell them to be fruitful and multiply. Is it not totally inconceivable that she pondered them when she took the forbidden fruit??

 

[Greg11430]

Hi Thistle,
It’s kind of the topic of this thread. Anyhow, I’m well aware that Public Revelation is greater than Private Revelation. It is a sin to not accept Public Revelation, not believing in Private Revelation is certainly not a sin. But in some cases it can be considered foolhardy, but not a sin. God didn’t stop communicating with us 2,000 years ago, and when He does so, I don’t take it lightly. I decided to make a couple of entries when I discovered this thread, and observed some outnumbered Valtorta readers getting pummeled. I felt bad and kind of jumped in.

 

[adrift]

Publishing Maria Valtorta’s writing was in full obedience to the church. The Code of Canon Law: Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I, gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power. Canon law clearly requires that this Papal order to Publish Maria Valtorta’s writings must be embraced with unconditional acceptance and submission. Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, even Canon Law.

What papal order? Can you produce a document? It is my understanding that none exist. All you have is a disobedient priest who says that the pope approved all written evidence proves otherwise.

However, in 1949, two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr.
Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the “Poem,” ordering
Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it.
Father Berti returned the manuscripts to Valtorta and handed over only his
typed versions
However, when Fr. Berti tried to have the Vatican Press publish the work, it was rejected by two commissioners of the Holy Office who had studied the works.
Pope Pius XII did nothing to stop this rejection, which was followed later by a condemnation, when Fr. Berti went to a lay publisher to publish the works (even though he had signed an agreement not to publish the works).

 

[Greg11430]

Disobedient to Cardinal Ottaviani (and we all know about his integrity), but obedient to Pope Pius XII. There is only one sworn statement from FatherCorrado M Berti available on line, because it is the only one that was translated into English, and posted.

exdeo.com/brC/berti/index.php

The sworn statements of Father Migliorini and Father Andrew Cecchin, (the Prior of the International College of the Servites of Mary in Rome, are in Italian. An Italian priest from our parish said the original handwritten copies are in Isola del Liri, Italy and have not been translated or posted on any web sites. He said he also saw a handwritten reinforcement letter in Italian by Cardinal Edourd Gagnon testifying that he logged the Pope Pius XII approval at the Vatican in 1948, he was the recorder at that time.

“The advice given to Father Berti by Monsignor Carinci and Reverend Bea to bypass the levels of Church hierarchy and go straight to the Pope came at a great cost. Apparently this circumnavigated Papal Imprimatur snubbed those heading the Holy Office, who considered it their responsibility to discern the nature of this private revelation, and evidently considered it an evasion of the authority of the Magisterium. As any person in a bureaucracy is well aware, going over a supervisor’s head to the CEO can often have dire consequences. One year later, in 1949, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani who then headed the Holy Office, summoned Father Corrado Berti and Father Andrew Cecchin to the Holy Office. Furthermore, during this meeting both Priests were forbidden to speak or communicate in any way. Monsignor Pepe and Father Berruti, officials of the Holy Office were entrusted with informing both Priests of the new judgment that reversed and undermined the Papal Imprimatur. This reversal commanded Father Berti to deliver to the Holy Office all of Maria Valtorta’s manuscripts and typescripts to be destroyed or kept shut away forever. Although Father Berti brought all the typescripts in his possession; he could not deliver all the copies, because some were in the possession of other people who declined to be deprived of them. The Holy Office, headed by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, forbade the publication of these writings and threatened to place them on the Index of forbidden books in the event of a publication. The order of silence cleverly restricted Father Berti from informing Monsignor Pepe and Father Berruti of the Papal Imprimatur given by Pope Pius XII.”

 

[adrift]

Papal Imprimatur given by Pope Pius XII

There was never an imprimatur given by any pope.
This imprimatur was claimed by a disobedient Father Berti which is well documented. Other than these three who claim what the Pope said is there any other evidence that the Pope read and gave approval? That answer is obvious.

As to the aspersions on Cardinal Ottaviani, there is no evidence that he did anything wrong. The link to CBS(and we all know how they love the Clhurch) is a slanted piece and if you read carefuly it is obvious that what is being said is the actions of a priest in confessional. It also needs to be pointed out that the Cardinal was not alone in his obejections what you can’t get around is the Pope did nothing when Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the “Poem,” ordering Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it. This silence and failure to act is a denial of any supposed imprimatur.

 

[corvidae]

I think what seems to be causing the most problems here is this.

In the original post, there was a group trying to get the poem essentially put on a par with scripture. That I think we can all agree would be wrong. There is a reason that private revelation is not put on the same level of public revelation.

In my opinion, public revelation is always beneficial to all, however, private revelation is not always beneficial to all. So Catholics should be free to believe or not to believe.

It seems that the Cardinal Ratzinger, who had the authority to say so, said that this has no supernatural origin. I think you should pay attention to that. A man given authority to comment on it, not just any priest or bishop, but someone with real authority and relevance to this issue has said that.

I sincerely believe you as Catholic’s should be free to believe it is supernatural, you may believe it is private revelation. However, you must acknowledge that the Church does not support it, and you should not promote it as supernatural revelation, for that would be a denial oif Church authority.

I do not deny that iut may be beneficial for some to read this poem, and it may be beneficial to your own spiritual life, but as Fr. Groeschel stated, so can music, or football. Many things are beneficial to us, and I believe that some of these things are in fact God trying to inspire something in us.

However, as far as the Church is concerned, it would seem that the Church using its delegated authority has spoken on the fact that it is not supernaturally inspired. That does not mean that it is never helpful.

A lone Raven

 

[Greg11430]

The testimony of the three Priests obviously differs from what you have permanently fixed in your mindset. They had nothing to gain, they only grievously suffered for telling the truth. When they were directed by the Pope to carry out an order, an order they heard with their own ears, they obviously could not succumb to contradictory orders from lower authority. Apparent your loyalty to Cardinal Ottaviani supersedes all reason.

Regarding CBS News on Cardinal Ottaviani’s directive:

“It’s an instruction manual on how to deceive and how to protect pedophiles, and exactly how to avoid the truth coming out."

Advanced Christianity:

“The policy authored by Cardinal Ottaviani mandated the Church Hierarchy, under the penalty of excommunication, to protect pedophile priests that repeatedly molested young children. His directive imposed an order of absolute silence on the violated child victims, their aggrieved families and witnesses to the crime, also under penalty of excommunication. Furthermore, it served as a guide to insulate pedophile priests from civil authorities by moving them from parish to parish. Many investigating agencies concluded that this Ottaviani policy was the single greatest cause of the recent child molestation scandal in the Roman Catholic Church.”

If both Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Ottaviani were still alive, who would you trust babysitting your kids?

 

[mosher]

The testimony of the three Priests obviously differs from what you have permanently fixed in your mindset. They had nothing to gain, they only grievously suffered for telling the truth. When they were directed by the Pope to carry out an order, an order they heard with their own ears, they obviously could not succumb to contradictory orders from lower authority. Apparent your loyalty to Cardinal Ottaviani supersedes all reason.

Regarding CBS News on Cardinal Ottaviani’s directive:

“It’s an instruction manual on how to deceive and how to protect pedophiles, and exactly how to avoid the truth coming out."

Advanced Christianity:

“The policy authored by Cardinal Ottaviani mandated the Church Hierarchy, under the penalty of excommunication, to protect pedophile priests that repeatedly molested young children. His directive imposed an order of absolute silence on the violated child victims, their aggrieved families and witnesses to the crime, also under penalty of excommunication. Furthermore, it served as a guide to insulate pedophile priests from civil authorities by moving them from parish to parish. Many investigating agencies concluded that this Ottaviani policy was the single greatest cause of the recent child molestation scandal in the Roman Catholic Church.”

If both Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Ottaviani were still alive, who would you trust babysitting your kids?

Your argument does not follow logic nor does it follow the proper procedure and authority of the Church. Something as significant as granting of Papal approval of a private revelation (which first of all is never done nor has ever been done) has a formal procedure. Said procedure was not followed and as such no such approval exists except in hearsay which is not a benchmark of authority.

However since further question was brought to the Church concerning this work it was generously looked at by the Church a number of times after the Pontificate of Pius XII. Each formal investigation determined that it should remain on the Index. Further, even after the abolition of the Index by Paul VI the matter was again reviewed by the competent authority and again it was found to not be private revelation and in fact in error in many respects.

So in effect one can accept hearsay and say that it is something good or one can accept repeated investigation by the competent authorities of the Church and say that it should be avoided. The choice is obvious for anyone who has an ounce of rational thought.

 

[Greg11430]

I guess for someone who considers sworn statements from three distinguished Priests (one being a Prior of the International College of the Servites of Mary in Rome), in addition to a sworn statement from the Cardinal who held the position as Vatican Recorder in 1948 to be hearsay. This support would not be taken lightly by anyone who has an ounce of rational thought. Do you have a Last-Will-And-Testament? That is supported by only two witnesses, (not even Roman Catholic Priests or a Cardinal, as in this case)., and that would be valid, in the USA, even if you were a billionaire.

The three Priests were advised in 1947 by His Excellency Monsignor Alphonse Carinci, who was then Secretary of the Sacred Congregation of Rites and Reverend Augustin Bea, who was then confessor to Pope Pius XII to present typed copies to His Holiness Pope Pius XII. They were specifically steered around Cardinal Ottaviani who was famous being contemptible and vindictive.

The validity of Valtorta’s writings have been argued by competent authorities for years, just as we are doing now, so I pasted a couple of supporting competent authorities below.

Father Padre Pio was a great advocate of Maria Valtorta’s writings, and known to recommend reading the Poem on many occasions. There is even a book on the subject; “Maria Valtorta and Padre Pio”, this is why the Knights of Columbus are such avid Valtorta supporters. One year before Padre Pio’s death, a woman named Mrs. Elisa Lucchi asked him if he advised reading Maria Valtorta’s writings. He replied, “I don’t just advise you, I order you read them!”.

members.aol.com/fmrega4/Valtorta.htm

“Still feeling subject to acceptance of, and submission to, the original Papal order that they heard with their own ears, the Servite priests gathered a huge amount of support to present to the Vatican. This backing included certifications of Maria Valtorta’s writings from The Secretary Of The Sacred Congregation Of Rites Archbishop Monsignor Alphonse Carinci, from Father Bea, S.J., from The Dean Of The Lateran Theological Faculty and Consultant To The Holy Office Monsignor Lattanzi, from The Dean Of Consistorial Counselors for the Holy See and a teacher at the Lateran Professor Camilo Corsanego and from the renowned Mariologist Of The Pontifical “Marianum” and Lateran Theological Faculty Father Gabriel Roschini, OSM. (As a note, Pope John Paul II called Father Gabriel M. Roschini one of the greatest Marioligists who ever lived. He was a decorated professor at the “Marianum” Pontifical Faculty of Theology in Rome, and an advisor to the Holy Office. He wrote over 130 Books on the Blessed Mother, all of which are in the Vatican Library. His last book, which Gabriel said was his greatest, was “The Virgin Mary In The Writings of Maria Valtorta”.”

 

[adrift]

Do you have a Last-Will-And-Testament? That is supported by only two witnesses, (not even Roman Catholic Priests or a Cardinal, as in this case)., and that would be valid, in the USA, even if you were a billionaire.

This illustrates the point I have been making. An unwritten will cannot be witnessed. :whacky: A will has to be written and so does an imprimatur. The Pope would not have given an oral approval. Except for these men saying they heard the pope there is no other evidence that he did. There is evidence that he did not approve. Since we cannot hear for ourselves what the pope said it is quite possible that these men misunderstood him. Since The pope did nothing to stop the censure of this book, speak volumes.
I never heard of Cardinal Ottaviani until you posted about him.

477
Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:

*** of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;**

• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons **who did not know them;**279

• of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.i

Why would you even bring him up in such a derogatory way speak of your character not his.
To impeach his reputation does nothing to prove that this poem was a revelation from God. However, if this is the fruit of the poem it does a lot to say it is not from God.

 

[Greg11430]

Cannon Law 333.3 says: “There is neither appeal nor recourse against a decision or decree of the Roman Pontiff.” Although not required to do so, the faithful are certainly permitted to believe Pius XII’s verbal approval. Although I could not find information regarding a verbal Imprimatur (Latin: “let it be printed”) in the Canon Law Documents, I contacted two local Priests who assert that a verbal Imprimatur is still an acceptable form of theologian censor. You are simply choosing not to believe the sworn testimony of three distinguish Priests and the Cardinal who acted as Vatican Recorder in 1948. Notwithstanding that 2 Corinthians 13:1 says: “Any charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses.”

As far as your claim that the three Priests and the Cardinal misunderstood Pope Pius XII: “Immediately after the meeting, Father Berti, Father Migliorini and Father Cecchin wrote down the exact wording of the Papal order, “Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion on its origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Whoever reads it will understand. These days we hear of so many visions and revelations. I am not saying that all of them are true, but there can be some of them that are authentic.” Furthermore, this Papal audience with Fathers Berti, Cecchin and Migliorini was historically documented by Cardinal Edourd Gagnon in 1948, who referred to Pope Pius twelfth’s action as an official Imprimatur granted before three reliable Priest-witnesses.”

The reason I brought up Cardinal Ottaviani is because of his relevance to the topic, as he is the chief force responsible for spearheading Valtorta’s writings and placing them on the Index of forbidden books, therefore making his character pertinent to the issue. You and those attacking Valtorta readers on this thread have not reserved from berating, condemning, disparaging and slandering the Cardinals, Bishops and Priests supporting the Poem, as demonstrated in your last posting. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Greg11430]

As per your comment: “The pope did nothing to stop the censure of this book, speak volumes.” He couldn’t, Cardinal Ottaviani waited until Pope Pius XII passed away before placing the Poem on the Index. In Italy “The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me” (“The Poem Of The Man-God” in USA because that title was already copyrighted), was published in 1956 with the Popes approval affixed to the inside front cover. Cardinal Ottaviani laid in wait for three years until Pope Pius XII past away in 1958. As soon as the next Pontiff, Pope John XXIII took office, he hastily had Valtorta’s writings placed on the Index in 1959, manipulating the new Pope who was unaware the approval, into signing the decree.

 

[adrift]

You and those attacking Valtorta readers on this thread have not reserved from berating, condemning, disparaging and slandering the Cardinals, Bishops and Priests supporting the Poem, as demonstrated in your last posting. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I have not attacked anyone. I point out the error in your reasoning and I think I have done it with charity. Again I ask you why must you make attacks all the time. If I had said the witnesses lied, and deliberetly misled than you would be right to say I slandered but this is not what I have done. Because I don’t believe that the Pope intended to give an imprimater does not mean that I am attacking these men. It is human nature to hear what we want to hear. These men waited until the audience was through before they wrote down the words. I think it likely that their own wants entered into it. It doesn’t make them evil but it does make them human. It seems odd to me that this is the only time the Pope said anything. It is my opinion that more likely he said something a lot less commital. We don’t know but we do know that he did nothing to promote it. When you make attacks, as you have done in each of your post, you diminish your argument.

As per your comment: “The pope did nothing to stop the censure of this book, speak volumes.” He couldn’t, Cardinal Ottaviani waited until Pope Pius XII passed away before placing the Poem on the Index.

AS I have pointed out to many times, this is untrue.

However, in 1949, two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr.
Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the “Poem,”

The Pope died nine years after this condemnation and the prohibition of printing.

was published in 1956 with the Popes approval affixed to the inside front cover.

You are correct to use the word affixed.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/valtorta.txt

CEDIVAL calls this a “Supreme Pontifical Imprimatur,” where “he took upon himself to pass the first official judgment on these writings.” CEDIVAL glues this inside the cover, though the publisher does not print an imprimatur. The reason: it has none!.. Though aware of the Holy Office’s opposition, Pisani printed the first volume in 1956, and a new volume each year through 1959.

IThe printing of the last volume coincides with the placing it on the index. It makes more sense that placing it on the index would wait until the complete publication not the death of the Pope.

The Poem Of The Man-God” in USA because that title was already copyrighted

This really doesn’t matter but I would point out to you that you cannot copyright titles.

therefore making his character pertinent to the issue.

Detraction and rash judgement is not pertinent and it is not good for your soul.

 

[Greg11430]

I apologize, after going back and reviewing the entries, your comments were essentially more reserved than other Valtorta challengers. As far as criticizing Cardinal Ottaviani, I did get a bit caustic. When I first read the CBS News report, there was a link to the English translation of the actual Ottaviani Policy (which doesn’t seem to be functioning now), I found it to be just as CBS News described, it made my blood boil, as it was evident of being the foundation of the recent Church scandal. There was only a tiny segment referring to the confessional. If I have any luck locating the original translation on line, I think you would be inclined to concur. A local Italian Priest told me additional Cardinal Ottaviani stories that contributed to fueling my comments. Such as that he was known for going off on tirades at the pulpit, one in which all the Priests listening to him turned their chairs around facing away from him, another where they cut off his microphone and the whole congregation applauded. But I think you are right, and I’ll try to refrain myself.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I believe the memo written by the three Priests immediately after the Papal meeting would be fairly accurate, as also the letter of testimony by Cardinal Gagnon.

The three Priests were summoned by Cardinal Ottaviani. Monsignor Pepe and Father Berruti were officials of the Holy Office who were only entrusted with informing both Priests of the new judgment, they did not author the judgement.

The significance of the year the Poem was put on the Index is also a fundamental difference of opinion. Supporters hold that it was placed on the Index because Cardinal Ottaviani would not be able to obtain Pope Pius XII signature, obviously the Pontiff would realize that his approval was being reversed. Challengers hold that Cardinal Ottaviani waited until the completing of the entire printing. I think that the sequence of events makes it quite clear that the former scenario is more plausible. As demonstrated by the immediate action taken as soon as Cardinal Ottaviani got wind of the private meeting with the Pope.

Try to think of it this way; If you were a Priest and the Pope ordered you to do something, and afterwards a Cardinal told you to do the exact opposite, whose orders would you follow?

 

[corvidae]

Try to think of it this way; If you were a Priest and the Pope ordered you to do something, and afterwards a Cardinal told you to do the exact opposite, whose orders would you follow?
-quoted from greg 11430

I would go back to the pope and ask for clarification. If that Pope were dead, I would go to the present one, and follow his instructions.

A lone Raven

 

[Greg11430]

Exactly, and that is what they did.

“Still feeling subject to acceptance of, and submission to, the original Papal order that they heard with their own ears, the Servite priests gathered a huge amount of support to present to the Vatican. This backing included certifications of Maria Valtorta’s writings from The Secretary Of The Sacred Congregation Of RitesArchbishop Monsignor Alphonse Carinci, from Father Bea, S.J., from The Dean Of The Lateran Theological Faculty and Consultant To The Holy Office Monsignor Lattanzi, from The Dean Of Consistorial Counselors for the Holy See and a teacher at the Lateran Professor Camilo Corsanego and from the renowned Mariologist Of The Pontifical “Marianum” and Lateran Theological Faculty Father Gabriel Roschini, OSM. (As a note, Pope John Paul II called Father Gabriel M. Roschini one of the greatest Marioligists who ever lived. He was a decorated professor at the “Marianum” Pontifical Faculty of Theology in Rome, and an advisor to the Holy Office. He wrote over 130 Books on the Blessed Mother, all of which are in the Vatican Library. His last book, which Gabriel said was his greatest, was “The Virgin Mary In the Writings of Maria Valtorta”.

It is in our opinion that Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani was so blinded by indignation over the circumnavigated Church approval, that he never considered that these revelations could actually be authentic. The sequence of events strongly supports and verifies this premise. Persistent attempts by Fathers Berti, Cecchin and Migliorini to gain another audience with Pope Pius XII was strategically and tightly blocked. If the Holy Office allowed any of these Priests to have another audience with the Pope, it would be a forgone conclusion that He would realize that His Imprimatur was being subverted. That would put Cardinal Ottaviani in a very precarious predicament. The Servite Priests were eventually chastised and separated.”

 

[adrift]

I apologize,

You don’t know how deeply I appreciate your apology. If I offended you please accept mine as well. We disagree but we each have points on our sides. A private revelation does not have to be believed so we are allowed to disagree. I believe all that is to be said has been said. God Bless You
Adrift