I Need Help with Poem of the Man-God

[shannyk]

People are using Pope Pius’ alleged approval of the books publishing to bolster their argument in favor of the Poem , but the book never had his formal approval. All it had was Fr. Berti’s account of what HE REMEMBERED Pope Pius Xll saying…(and how good and unbiased was his memory???)

Standing in St. Peter’s Square after the
audience, Father Berti wrote down Pope Pius’ words as he remembered them.
These words were “not” printed in L’Osservatore Romano, but Father Berti
remembered the Pope saying:

“Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion about its
origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Who reads it, will understand.
One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all
authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are.”

CEDIVAL calls this a “Supreme Pontifical Imprimatur,” where “he took upon
himself to pass the first official judgment on these writings.” CEDIVAL
glues this inside the cover, though the publisher does not print an
imprimatur. The reason: it has none!

The book’s condemnation however, DID have the approval of Pope John XXlll.

When volume four appeared, the Holy Office examined the “Poem” and
condemned it, recommending that it be placed on the Index of Forbidden
Books Dec. 16, 1959. Pope John XXIII signed the decree and ordered it
published. L’Osservatore Romano, on Jan. 6, 1960, printed the
condemnation with an accompanying front-page article, “A Badly
Fictionalized Life of Jesus,” to explain it.

This discussion, in all it’s arrogance should humbly end.

 

[adrift]

Self judgement? Not at all, the original Papal Judgement. The Church hierarchy is the very basis of those who support the Poem. .

From post 298

There was never an imprimatur given by any pope.
This imprimatur was claimed by a disobedient Father Berti which is well documented. Other than these three who claim what the Pope said is there any other evidence that the Pope read and gave approval? That answer is obvious.

From post 296

However, in 1949, two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr.
Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the “Poem,” ordering
Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it.
Father Berti returned the manuscripts to Valtorta and handed over only his
typed versions
However, when Fr. Berti tried to have the Vatican Press publish the work, it was rejected by two commissioners of the Holy Office who had studied the works.
Pope Pius XII did nothing to stop this rejection, which was followed later by a condemnation, when Fr. Berti went to a lay publisher to publish the works (even though he had signed an agreement not to publish the works).

Love4Mary2
The forum rules states that you may not post messages from unapproved apparations. The forum regards this as unapproved and you are being disrespectful in doing so.

Read some of the previous postings. The Poem was under attack by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, who placed it on the forbidden book list out of spite, because he was irate at being bypassed. He was unquestionably well known for being an enthusiastic challenger Papal authority, particularly as outlined by Cannon Law. As far as Cardinal Ratzinger, he was groomed by Cardinal Ottaviani to be his successor. Obviously when he was asked, he refrained from nullifying the judgement of his former mentor.

This allegation is unfounded. Made by those who are disobedient and wish to justify it.
I agree with the previous poster this thread should end.

 

[Leeta]

Valtorta contradicts the teachings of the Church concerning our Lady. She is purported to have wished that she might sin mightily in order that He could forgive her more!

This is clearly over the top.

The book was never published with imprimatur from the Holy Father. It was investigated in the good old days in 1949, when the faith was still practiced in a unified way, by Jesuits who were true children of St. Ignatius

Forget Valtorta and read a good Catholic novel, such as Quo Vadis and use approved books for your daily meditation. Conversation with God is really good. Burn Valtorta!
To go after unapproved alleged revelations is to place your soul in great danger of leaving the Church. The devil uses such ‘good’ things to get people to believe in them rather than in the Church and its teaching. You are becoming protestant and saying that you feel this is so inspirational and so what what the Holy Father says about it. The Church is infallible in its teaching. the public revelation given to it can not be added to by anyone!

 

[nilofc]

Do not read “Poem of the Man-God” - this is a deception.

Do not believe in Medjugorje - this is also a deception.

You’d be better off reading books of St. Louis de Montfort, and other Catholic-approved Books.

 

[thistle]

Do not read “Poem of the Man-God” - this is a deception.

Do not believe in Medjugorje - this is also a deception.

You’d be better off reading books of St. Louis de Montfort, and other Catholic-approved Books.

I totally agree.

 

[Love4Mary2]

It is evident that these Valtorta detractors just keep repeating the same nonsense just to pad away arguments that they are unable to counter, like the inexorable reasoning on pages 6 & 7.

“All it had was Fr. Berti’s account of what HE REMEMBERED Pope Pius Xll saying”:

There were three Priest witnesses, Father Corrado M. Berti, Father Migliorini and Father Andrew M. Cecchin, Prior of the Servites International College. Immediately after the meeting, they wrote down the exact wording of the Papal order, “Publish this work as it is.” Furthermore, this Papal Order was historically documented by Cardinal Edourd Gagnon in 1948, who referred to Pope Pius twelfth’s action as an official Imprimatur granted before three reliable Priest-witnesses. This makes a total of four credible witnesses.

Anyone Roman Catholic with half a brain knows that a Papal Order supercedes an Imprimatur. Whether it has an Imprimatur or not is irrelevant. It has a Papal Order witnessed by three Priests and a Cardinal.

“The forum rules states that you may not post messages from unapproved apparitions. The forum regards this as unapproved and you are being disrespectful in doing so.” Sure, but it’s okay for Valtorta detractors to compile misquotes to make Jesus sound like a Homo? It’s okay to take Mary’s quotes out of context as is done in #353? I guess its okay with you if it is for deceptive purposes.

One of the greatest advocates of Maria Valtorta’s writings is the Blessed Gabriel Allegra, who is the ONLY Scripture scholar beatified by John Paul II.

 

[Love4Mary2]

I’m aware that this is off the given topic, but it is brought up by a Valtorta detractor in posting #355. I’m not a big follower of Medjugorje, but anyone who believes that God could allow something masquerading as his Mom for 25yrs without even lifting His pinky finger against it, must also believe that God is dead.

 

[mosher]

It is evident that these Valtorta detractors just keep repeating the same nonsense just to pad away arguments that they are unable to counter, like the inexorable reasoning on pages 6 & 7.

“All it had was Fr. Berti’s account of what HE REMEMBERED Pope Pius Xll saying”:

There were three Priest witnesses, Father Corrado M. Berti, Father Migliorini and Father Andrew M. Cecchin, Prior of the Servites International College. Immediately after the meeting, they wrote down the exact wording of the Papal order, “Publish this work as it is.” Furthermore, this Papal Order was historically documented by Cardinal Edourd Gagnon in 1948, who referred to Pope Pius twelfth’s action as an official Imprimatur granted before three reliable Priest-witnesses. This makes a total of four credible witnesses.

Anyone Roman Catholic with half a brain knows that a Papal Order supercedes an Imprimatur. Whether it has an Imprimatur or not is irrelevant. It has a Papal Order witnessed by three Priests and a Cardinal.

“The forum rules states that you may not post messages from unapproved apparitions. The forum regards this as unapproved and you are being disrespectful in doing so.” Sure, but it’s okay for Valtorta detractors to compile misquotes to make Jesus sound like a Homo? It’s okay to take Mary’s quotes out of context as is done in #353? I guess its okay with you if it is for deceptive purposes.

One of the greatest advocates of Maria Valtorta’s writings is the Blessed Gabriel Allegra, who is the ONLY Scripture scholar beatified by John Paul II.

The point is moot until the official line from the CDF is changed.

I’m aware that this is off the given topic, but it is brought up by a Valtorta detractor in posting #355. I’m not a big follower of Medjugorje, but anyone who believes that God could allow something masquerading as his Mom for 25yrs without even lifting His pinky finger against it, must also believe that God is dead.

To think that God intervenes in such a way is a grave misunderstanding of the economy of salvation.

 

[Love4Mary2]

The Code of Canon Law: Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I, gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power. The CDF authority falls short of nullifying a Papal Order.

“To think that God intervenes in such a way is a grave misunderstanding of the economy of salvation.” It is a grave misunderstanding to think that God would fail to defend His Mother.

 

[JimG]

A papal order? What is a papal order? What if the pope orders the chamberlain to bring in some coffee? I guess that would be a papal order. To the best of my knowledge, Valtorta’s writings have no Church approval and never will have.

 

[Love4Mary2]

Very silly, I guess he should get the coffee. All joking aside, Father Corrado M. Berti, Father Migliorini and Father Andrew M. Cecchin presented a typed copy to Pope Pius XII for his assessment in 1947. After spending a year studying Maria Valtorta’s writings, Pope Pius XII granted a special audience to these three Priests on February 26, 1948 to express His personal evaluation. The Pontiff ordered the Priests “to publish Maria Valtorta’s writings without omitting anything”. Immediately after the meeting they wrote down the exact wording of the Papal order. This Papal audience was historically documented by Cardinal Edourd Gagnon in 1948, who held the position of Vatican recorder at that time. The three Priests and the recording Cardinal wrote sworn signed statements to this fact. Father Corrado Berti’s is posted on the internet, the other original handwritten copies are in Isola del Liri Italy, and have not been translated from Italian or posted on any web sites. I’m told that the documents are also available at the The Basilica of the Annunciation in Florence Italy, where Maria Valtorta’s mortal remains are buried under the altar.

As far as Church approval, the buck stops at the first Papal approval.

 

[Eliza10]

Here shannyk quotes the SAME quote that has been requoted and requoted perhaps 30 times on this SAME THREAD. Anyone want to count how many times exactly???

I don’t.

Here is the same tired quote:

…"When volume four appeared, the Holy Office examined the “Poem” and
condemned it, recommending that it be placed on the Index of Forbidden
Books Dec. 16, 1959. Pope John XXIII signed the decree and ordered it
published. L’Osservatore Romano, on Jan. 6, 1960, printed the
condemnation with an accompanying front-page article, “A Badly
Fictionalized Life of Jesus,” to explain it.
.

And shannyk adds this:

…"This discussion, in all it’s arrogance should humbly end.

And I have to say, to me it seems arrogant to keep quoting this quote over and over to make the same tired point “And that should end it!”

That quote has been refuted as many times as its been posted in this thread.

I think we are all done with it now.

John Haffert, founder of the Blue Army, was widely read, and he spoke glowingly of Poem of the Man-God. Here he writes of how he found it:

I happened to he in Rome with the Most Rev. John Venancio, the Bishop of Fatima, when he sought out a special bookstore to purchase the ten volumes of the Italian edition. It had been recommended by a highly esteemed friend in Paris, the celebrated author-editor, Abbe Andre Richard.

Years later, after Bishop Venancio retired, whenever I visited him our conversation seemed to turn to the *Poem. *Inhis last years *the Bishop read from it every day. *He must have read all ten volumes over and over. *I began to wonder what could be so special about it. *The Bishop was widely read and had a sizable library. He had been a professor of dogmatic theology in Rome before becoming the Bishop of Fatima. Yet now, when he had ample time to read anything he wished, he seemed to spend all his time on this one book.

At the time it was available only in Italian, which was not my best language. But I found my way back to the same bookstore in Rome and bought the ten volumes. Next I bought each volume in French (my "second" language) as it came out. Finally I read the entire work a third time (3,327 pages) when the English edition became available. Today I continue, like Bishop Venancio, to read it over and over.

Contrast this to the statement, “badly fictionalized novel.” Something isn’t matching up here! A professor of dogmatic theology at Pontifical University wanting to read nothing else but The Poem over and over again in his retirement years? Well, call it anything, but you can’t possibly call it badly-fictionalized!

Its not humble at all to make such a strong stance, and accuse others of beign disobedient, over what you yourself haven’t read.

 

[Eliza10]

The point is moot until the official line from the CDF is changed…

Wow, mosher, its been a year and a half since I posted on this thread with you and now that I reread how you make your points I can’t believe I ever bothered to spend so much time haivng a discussion with you. For Love4Mary2 to write all that and you to say her point is moot is arrogant.

You say we all need an official line from the CDF but thats your conjecture. Thats what YOU need. Why don’t you say it, instead of coming across like an expert in how the Vatican works? Because you aren’t.

*The truth is simply that YOU want a new official line from the CDF. *

If you state that truth, there is no argument.

At least Thomas was honest when he said “I won’t beleive it till I see the nail holes.”

He didn’t try to say that* no one should* believe it till everyone sees the holes!

To think that God intervenes in such a way is a grave misunderstanding of the economy of salvation.

Honestly, mosher, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about here. I think you are just trying to sound like you know more than everyone else. And its just coming across as arrogant. And that’s my honest feedback.

 

[Eliza10]

There were three Priest witnesses, Father Corrado M. Berti, Father Migliorini and Father Andrew M. Cecchin, Prior of the Servites International College. … Cardinal Edourd Gagnon …Pope Pius XVII…

According to mosher and other detractors here, these people must all be liars!

Its easier to say that than look for the truth. It takes too long. Its easier to say the subject is closed.

One of the greatest advocates of Maria Valtorta’s writings is the Blessed Gabriel Allegra, who is the ONLY Scripture scholar beatified by John Paul II.

So how do the detractors explain this one???

Oh, I see, they just ignore it, and requote the old anonymous CDF office quote: “Badly fictionalized novel”.

I guess it seems to them that you can still be Blessed even if you love spending your time reading and studying “bad fiction”!

 

[Love4Mary2]

Thanks Eliza10, I am so happy that you came back to this thread. I read all your postings and admired the rational, stamina and wisdom of your arguments. The words “badly fictionalized” instantly discredits the source of the assertion. No other statement could be more contrary to the truth. I would also like to inform you that HMWN.net Catholic radio has a program Poet’s corner by Mary Angela Nangini at 6:05pm on Monday and Friday nights in which she typically reads from the Poem.

 

[Eliza10]

Thanks Eliza10, I am so happy that you came back to this thread. I read all your postings and admired the rational, stamina and wisdom of your arguments. The words “badly fictionalized” instantly discredits the source of the assertion. No other statement could be more contrary to the truth. I would also like to inform you that HMWN.net Catholic radio has a program Poet’s corner by Mary Angela Nangini at 6:05pm on Monday and Friday nights in which she typically reads from the Poem.

Thanks Love4Mary2! It has certainly taken stanima to hang in with this thread. 8 pages! But I don’t know about an abundance of wisdom. Because I think that a good portion of the people I was debating with are people who like to argue for the sake of argument - and that’s it! What a waste of time. I assumed there was a desire to get at the truth of the matter, when in fact there was just a desire to pontificate, and this thread was the podium. I won’t say it was this way with all the detractors though. But if I had discerned more where some of the posters were coming from there would be less pages of type here.

Yes, its true about that phrase being an instant discredit.

Can I get HMWN.net on the net, or do I need that special satellite radio?

I think it would be nice to hear it read. I would love to hear it discussed, too. I have wondered if there was an internet discussion group anywhere just on the books?

 

[Love4Mary2]

No one has more stamina than you! I truly admire how you hung in there. I’m aware that debating with Valtorta detractors is useless if the fundamental objective is to edify their perspective of one of God’s most wonderful gifts, Maria Valtorta’s writings. They aren’t dubbed the frozen chosen without reason. The core rationale of perseverance in this thread; is thwarting Valtorta detractors from blinding those who are seeking a higher understanding of our Lord Jesus.

We seem to go on and on, simply countering false claims with nullifying facts, such as the famous screwdriver, with archaeological finds that proved beyond reasonable doubt that they actually existed. The result seems to be a copious padding of postings that keeps repeating the same disproved fallacies, almost like a chant intended to drown out the overwhelming facts. They are not arguing for the sake of argument, they are burying evidence! There is no desire to get at the truth of the matter, but only to conceal it.

As far as HMWN.net, just go to: hmwn.net/ and click on “Listen Live” in the upper right hand corner. Mary Angela Nangini also has a site: Nangini.com/ and many of her recordings can be found on AdvancedChristianity.com

 

[shannyk]

I’m not a big follower of Medjugorje, but anyone who believes that God could allow something masquerading as his Mom for 25yrs without even lifting His pinky finger against it, must also believe that God is dead.

God has allowed the evil one to deceive us since Adam and Eve. He lets us make choices. It’s called free will.

Here shannyk quotes the SAME quote that has been requoted and requoted perhaps 30 times on this SAME THREAD. Anyone want to count how many times exactly???

I don’t.

Nor did I want to read through the 8 pages of peoples opinions on whether or not Valtorta and her book are ‘real’. I responded to the OP. i don’t have time to waste sifting through peoples opinions when the Church has been clear on the matter of approval of Poem.

And I have to say, to me it seems arrogant to keep quoting this quote over and over to make the same tired point “And that should end it!”

To me, it seems arrogant and uncharitable to assume someone does something out of arrogance, when, in all likelyhood they just weren’t inclined to read through the whole, rediculous thread. Like I said above, I responded to the OP.

Next time you can feel free to skip my post altogether

Also note, that the last post on this thread was over 1 month ago…I think we are, like you said

all done with it now.

 

[Love4Mary2]

Deceiving and impersonating God’s Mother for such a long time are not on the same level. That would be an intolerable personal attacked aimed straight at the Mother of God. There are lines in the sand that the evil one cannot cross. Again, anyone who believes that God could allow something masquerading as his Mom for that long, without even lifting His pinky finger against it, must also believe that God is dead. Sure the evil one can tempt, but masquerade as God’s Mother for 25 years? Things that are the same are equal. Jesus had respect for His Mother here on earth. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that His first miracle was worked at Her request. It only stands to reason that He will also have respect for His Mother in Heaven. There are only a few conclusions that can be surmised, God is dead, He lost respect for His Mother or the apparitions of Medjugorje must be authentic.

The head of the Church at the time of Maria Valtorta was Pope Pius the XII. He was the first to make an official Church judgement on the authenticity of her writings. When he made his verdict and gave his order in 1948, that is the only relevant Church position that matters. According to Cannon Law, anything after that is meaningless. Lower levels of the Church hierarchy have no authority to overturn the Papal Order, no matter how slighted they were at being bypassed by the three Priests.

 

[mosher]

The Code of Canon Law: Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I, gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power. The CDF authority falls short of nullifying a Papal Order.

“To think that God intervenes in such a way is a grave misunderstanding of the economy of salvation.” It is a grave misunderstanding to think that God would fail to defend His Mother.

You are correct but no official recognition has been given to the attested statement and so juridically the statement is null.

Wow, mosher, its been a year and a half since I posted on this thread with you and now that I reread how you make your points I can’t believe I ever bothered to spend so much time haivng a discussion with you. For Love4Mary2 to write all that and you to say her point is moot is arrogant.

You say we all need an official line from the CDF but thats your conjecture. Thats what YOU need. Why don’t you say it, instead of coming across like an expert in how the Vatican works? Because you aren’t.

*The truth is simply that YOU want a new official line from the CDF. *

If you state that truth, there is no argument.

At least Thomas was honest when he said “I won’t beleive it till I see the nail holes.”

He didn’t try to say that* no one should* believe it till everyone sees the holes!

Honestly, mosher, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about here. I think you are just trying to sound like you know more than everyone else. And its just coming across as arrogant. And that’s my honest feedback.

No, I’m just tired of people not following the juridical process of the Church. I am well aware of the discussion on all its levels and it has become tiresome. The point is that we must be obedient to not only the theological and moral teachings of the Church but also the juridical proclamations under its proper form as given in canon law. As Catholics we must assent internally and externally in obedience to Her. In this aspect it seems that people feel that their feelings about the issue are more valid than the canonical form. This is not the case. Nor is it the case that an attested statement overrides the juridical right of a latter pope or even a current pope. Rather recognition must be given or else it is null. Also, I strongly doubt that the evidence that has been here presented is something that has not been given the competent authorities. I am sure they are aware of all the arguments and as of yet not change in Vatican disposition has been made even after a number of new popes have been reigning.

We must learn to be more like the Saints and in this case St. Pio is a perfect example. Submission to juridical authority until the same authority lifts its judgment.