L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
All you have to do is highlight it and change the size from a 4 or 5 or whatever it is and downsize it to a 2 or 3. The size box is right next to the type of text (3rd icon box from the left on top).
- Status
P
pnewton
Guest
Before anyone considers this “balance”, this links to the website of ValtortaPublishing, those who sell the book.
I think I will still stick with Fr. Pacwa and the good people here at CA. After all, there is always the Bible to read if I had extra time to read some spiritual work.
E
Eliza10
Guest
But its not possible that she told the story of Jesus in her own way. One who has read it nad the story of how she wrote it knows thins is not possibile. Plus there are definative opinions of experts that say it cannot be natural origin. Its just not reasonable that a sick women could have written this all freehand one word after another without crossing out and name all these towns that archeologists only discovered later - for just one example.
If some people want to shut there minds to it because of this letter then thats their perogative. But for those of us faced with this evidence, its not enough. When the Vatican banned Padre Pio, did that make him not of God? It is obvious to many that there is more than meets the eye here. If you haven’t read the books then you have no idea what those of us who have are dealing with.
All I can say for sure is that it is no longer on the forbidden book list. How it even got on that list is pretty suspect, as CharacterZero tells us in post #40:
"The arguments against it derive from a campaign against it led by Joseph Cardinal Siri, Archbishop of Genoa, who thought it made Our Lord seem too human. It is true that you see His sacred humanity quite clearly but you are also overwhelmed by His awesome divinity. The story has three phases.
First, the Poem was brought to Pope Pius XII who read it in its entirety and said: “Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion on its origin, if it be extraordinary or not. Whoever reads it will understand.” Thereafter, it was published throught Italy and other countries in various forms e.g. 14 thinner volumes in Italian in excerpts in magazines and Catholic newspapers, etc. This publication was very popular in Italy (and elsewhere) with clergy and laity. The fact that they were published in Italy with the papal imprimatur is quite exceptional.
The second phase began when two priests, who later, in retirement, admitted that they were modernists, asked Blessed Pope John to put it on the Index 'til the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Pope Benedict’s old bailiwick) could review it. Their problem, and the problem of many modernists, was that it portrayed Our Lord as clearly Divine, which is not acceptable to modernists.
**
When Pope Paul abolished The Index, it was still “under review”; so there was never an opportunity for it to be taken off The Index, as many books were -which icluded writings of Thomas Aquinas and John of the Cross. Publishers started publishing it again and started publishing more books which derive from it. Its resurgence in popularity bothered Cardinal Siri’s coterie and Siri decided to play a shrewd gambit. He asked Card. Ratzinger whether or not the old principle that one should be cautious about reading books that had been on the Index but had been taken off. Cardinal Ratzinger replied that in most cases, the cautionary practice should still apply, implying that this would be good for pastors dealing with individuals who were “less-well prepared”, i.e. the uneducated or imbalanced."
I agree with Cardinal Radzinger that in most cases, because of people bieng “less-well-prepared” its good to be cautious in all matters of faith and even for some stick with the no-longer valid forbidden list. I can see for example, that someone who is not strong in faith and has perhaps struggled with homosexuality might become fixated on words like “caress” and jumpt to wrong conclusions. We can see people have already madesuch ridiculous conclusions! These people would be better off just sticking with the “basics”. I know I was criticized here for calling the Bible and the Catechism basics but what else to you call it? Our foundation? It won’t do anyone harm to stick with that and certianly one can become a Saint with that.
So you see it is not all that clearcut as the one letter you quoted. But again it won’t harm you to stick with that. It all comes back to the fact no one needs to believe that Valtorta was a true mystic writing supernaturally. But please remembver that the Church allows belief in private revelation.
If some people want to shut there minds to it because of this letter then thats their perogative. But for those of us faced with this evidence, its not enough. When the Vatican banned Padre Pio, did that make him not of God? It is obvious to many that there is more than meets the eye here. If you haven’t read the books then you have no idea what those of us who have are dealing with.
All I can say for sure is that it is no longer on the forbidden book list. How it even got on that list is pretty suspect, as CharacterZero tells us in post #40:
"The arguments against it derive from a campaign against it led by Joseph Cardinal Siri, Archbishop of Genoa, who thought it made Our Lord seem too human. It is true that you see His sacred humanity quite clearly but you are also overwhelmed by His awesome divinity. The story has three phases.
First, the Poem was brought to Pope Pius XII who read it in its entirety and said: “Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion on its origin, if it be extraordinary or not. Whoever reads it will understand.” Thereafter, it was published throught Italy and other countries in various forms e.g. 14 thinner volumes in Italian in excerpts in magazines and Catholic newspapers, etc. This publication was very popular in Italy (and elsewhere) with clergy and laity. The fact that they were published in Italy with the papal imprimatur is quite exceptional.
The second phase began when two priests, who later, in retirement, admitted that they were modernists, asked Blessed Pope John to put it on the Index 'til the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Pope Benedict’s old bailiwick) could review it. Their problem, and the problem of many modernists, was that it portrayed Our Lord as clearly Divine, which is not acceptable to modernists.
**
When Pope Paul abolished The Index, it was still “under review”; so there was never an opportunity for it to be taken off The Index, as many books were -which icluded writings of Thomas Aquinas and John of the Cross. Publishers started publishing it again and started publishing more books which derive from it. Its resurgence in popularity bothered Cardinal Siri’s coterie and Siri decided to play a shrewd gambit. He asked Card. Ratzinger whether or not the old principle that one should be cautious about reading books that had been on the Index but had been taken off. Cardinal Ratzinger replied that in most cases, the cautionary practice should still apply, implying that this would be good for pastors dealing with individuals who were “less-well prepared”, i.e. the uneducated or imbalanced."
I agree with Cardinal Radzinger that in most cases, because of people bieng “less-well-prepared” its good to be cautious in all matters of faith and even for some stick with the no-longer valid forbidden list. I can see for example, that someone who is not strong in faith and has perhaps struggled with homosexuality might become fixated on words like “caress” and jumpt to wrong conclusions. We can see people have already madesuch ridiculous conclusions! These people would be better off just sticking with the “basics”. I know I was criticized here for calling the Bible and the Catechism basics but what else to you call it? Our foundation? It won’t do anyone harm to stick with that and certianly one can become a Saint with that.
So you see it is not all that clearcut as the one letter you quoted. But again it won’t harm you to stick with that. It all comes back to the fact no one needs to believe that Valtorta was a true mystic writing supernaturally. But please remembver that the Church allows belief in private revelation.
E
Eliza10
Guest
Thanks. I would change it, but now there is no “edit” box available for me on those posts, as there sometimes is after you write a post.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Well, this statement is pretty reflective of a class of Catholics who feel that they are better prepared to determine what is good for themselves than Holy Mother Church, who has had 2000 years of refinement.
It comes in the form of an argument for or against something. In this case, you argue in favor of the book. On the opposing side of the debate is the Holy See itself, represented by the CDF.
Christ promised that he would protect the Church. He instituted a Church knowing that if each and every one of us had to discern the worthiness of something regarding faith and morals, there would be potentially tens of thousands of interpretations. The Holy Spirit can only be leading one of those interpretations. So, which one is it?
It takes pure, humble and obedient faith to abandon one’s will with regards to the book (your will Lord, not mine), and give the Holy See, which has spoken numerous times on the subject, the benefit of the doubt. It takes pride (my way no mattter what your Church says Lord) to retain one’s will over that of Holy Mother Church.
Myself and others have given you material which comes straight from the Holy See itself - the CDF. The people you name as supporters can have a personal opinion. If I have to choose between having faith in the Holy See or any indivivual or group of theologians/experts, I trust the Holy See. That is because Christ promised us that Holy Mother Church will not lead us astray on matters of faith and morals. You seem to trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding this woman, but you do not trust that the same Holy Spirit would guide the Church which Christ instituted?
This will be continued in the next post…
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
This is simply a weak argument to undermine the teaching authority of the Church. Once again, most saints must be tested as part of the discernment of spirits test. Our leaders must vigorously test those claiming to be engaged in supernatural phenomena in order to protect the Church. We view the man’s supreme obedience to his authorities with the example you give. This, I believe, was the ultimate reason why God permitted it to happen. Highly virtuous levels of piety or obedience became visible through that period in Padre Pio’s life, regardless of the motives of his superiors who may have played right into God’s hands. You will find many accounts of how saints were challenged in such ways. In the end, it is the virtue of the saint during that time period, and cult following of that person that provides a boost for sainthood. The Holy Spirit not only graces a saint, but also the saint’s followers and therefore, they too are subject to a test unbeknownst to them. Do they obey the local Ordinary who has jurisdiction? If so, they show grace. If not, it is less likely to be coming from God.
Yes, and you must have missed what Cardinal Ratzinger stated about the forbidden list book. Here it is again from the letter above:
**On this subject I have the honor of expressing to Your Eminence – you will judge the opportuneness of informing the Father …] – that in fact the Work in question was placed on the Index on 16 December 1959 and defined by “L’Osservatore Romano” of 6 January 1960, as “A Badly Novelized Life of Jesus.” **The provisions of the Decree were re-published with an explicit note again in L’Ossservatore Romano of 1 December 1961, as can be reviewed in the documentation herewith enclosed.
Since some have subsequently held that after the abrogation of the Index, the printing and diffusion of the Work in question is licit, L’Osservatore Romano (15 June 1966) had presented what was published in A.A.S. (1966) Acta Apostolicae Sedis]: **that, although abolished, the “Index” retained “all its moral value,” for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. **
This is not some theologian with an opinion speaking; this is the Prefect for the CDF speaking. His words carry weight over that of anyone else who is not in a position of authority. That is why people wrote to him. **Notice that the founder of Caritas did not write to any of the people on the list of supporters you added. That is because they are not in a position to make the discernment. **
It’s quite clear to me, and someone help me if I’m wrongly interpreting the Cardinal’s words, but this tells me that “the index ‘retained’ all its moral value”. The statment that follows that is even bolder coming right out and acknowledging “potential damages to unprepared faithful.”
How do we define prepared and unprepared? I’d say at the very least, one ought to have a MA in Theology. A theologian can view this document, in light of church teaching, examining it for error or what not, but the average Catholic does not have the expertise to do that. They are “unprepared”. And, I’ll go so far as to say there are some degreed theologians who are unprepared as well.
As far as I can see, the Church has spoken on the subject. To continue to argue “for” this book, puts one at odds with Holy Mother Church.
The worst thing anyone can do when it comes to private revelations not yet approved by the Church is to let their emotions get involved. There are three possible sources of such things: Divine, diabolical, and human. Two out of three of those do not come from God. When it is human and not a sick individual (mentally or otherwise), then it gets into lack of virtue and sometimes downright sinfulness, such as pride or greed when a hoax is involved.
C
Character_Zero
Guest
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Eliza,
In your list of “supporters” there are only two who have comments made after 1995, at least what you show here. That would be following the 1993 clarification coming from Ratzinger through the Cardinal Raymond Boland. Here they are:
John Haffert, author, (1995)
"I have the 10 volumes of The Poem of the Men-God in Italian and French. It is the most wonderful work I have ever read and I consider it a blessing of God. I’m in my seventies. And in my entire life, among all the books I’ve read, The Poem of the Man-God is the one that has done me the most good in my spiritual life."
Now, both this comment and the one below are not worthy of disregarding the Holy See in favor of the book’s author’s “revelations” being divinely inspired. They are highly subjective and are nothing more than mere opinions. In fact, this is very dangerous to put stock in such subjective information. Most of that which is pasted from that particular site is all based on subjective opinion of people who have no jurisdiction. Some are not even Catholic by the sounds of it.
Jean Aulagnier, specialist in ancient calendars, author of a book on Valtorta’s work (1995)
"Having established a scientific chronolgy of all events and occurrences in Maria Valtorta’s work, I cannot but say it remains unexplainable otherwise than by divine intervention." Wayne Weible, International reporter and Christian preacher, South Carolina (1987)
Now this one I can’t even tell whom it was - Jean Aulagnier or the Christian “preacher”? “***unexplainable otherwise than by divine intervention” ??? ***
How about diabolical influence? Contrary to popular mythical belief, Satan more often comes in the form of honey than in vinegar. He is even capable of driving some to be more holy, but in the end, it is their refusal to submit to holy Obedience that gives them away because Satan is incapable of obedience.
Experts certainly may submit their opinions to the Holy See for consideration, but once the Holy See speaks, that’s it - its done.
And, then there is this comment:
**Fr Peter Mary Rookey, a well known healing priest based in the Chicago area, had a conversation with Fr. Cecchin in the 1990’s who recalled that the pope did indeed order the work to be published, but that the pope also advised them to try to find a bishop who would give it an Imprimatur. **
This tells me nothing beyond someone attempting to get an imprimatur. Did they ever get one through 2005? What proof is there that the pope told anything to anyone? However, there is proof that Cardinal Ratzinger addressed the issue as Prefect of the CDF - it comes in the form of a formal letter.
In your list of “supporters” there are only two who have comments made after 1995, at least what you show here. That would be following the 1993 clarification coming from Ratzinger through the Cardinal Raymond Boland. Here they are:
John Haffert, author, (1995)
"I have the 10 volumes of The Poem of the Men-God in Italian and French. It is the most wonderful work I have ever read and I consider it a blessing of God. I’m in my seventies. And in my entire life, among all the books I’ve read, The Poem of the Man-God is the one that has done me the most good in my spiritual life."
Now, both this comment and the one below are not worthy of disregarding the Holy See in favor of the book’s author’s “revelations” being divinely inspired. They are highly subjective and are nothing more than mere opinions. In fact, this is very dangerous to put stock in such subjective information. Most of that which is pasted from that particular site is all based on subjective opinion of people who have no jurisdiction. Some are not even Catholic by the sounds of it.
Jean Aulagnier, specialist in ancient calendars, author of a book on Valtorta’s work (1995)
"Having established a scientific chronolgy of all events and occurrences in Maria Valtorta’s work, I cannot but say it remains unexplainable otherwise than by divine intervention." Wayne Weible, International reporter and Christian preacher, South Carolina (1987)
Now this one I can’t even tell whom it was - Jean Aulagnier or the Christian “preacher”? “***unexplainable otherwise than by divine intervention” ??? ***
How about diabolical influence? Contrary to popular mythical belief, Satan more often comes in the form of honey than in vinegar. He is even capable of driving some to be more holy, but in the end, it is their refusal to submit to holy Obedience that gives them away because Satan is incapable of obedience.
Experts certainly may submit their opinions to the Holy See for consideration, but once the Holy See speaks, that’s it - its done.
And, then there is this comment:
**Fr Peter Mary Rookey, a well known healing priest based in the Chicago area, had a conversation with Fr. Cecchin in the 1990’s who recalled that the pope did indeed order the work to be published, but that the pope also advised them to try to find a bishop who would give it an Imprimatur. **
This tells me nothing beyond someone attempting to get an imprimatur. Did they ever get one through 2005? What proof is there that the pope told anything to anyone? However, there is proof that Cardinal Ratzinger addressed the issue as Prefect of the CDF - it comes in the form of a formal letter.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Character Zero said:
And the above post reply reads as follows:
My uncle is a priest, he used to live at the Vatican, and he was good friends with a lot of the cardinals. His bishop, Bishop Hnilica, was friends with Pope John Paul the Great, and that is how my uncle found this out.
So, I suppose you could say it is purely anecdotal, and I don’t expect opponents of the book to believe me, but I know that it is true.
Anyway, yes, it does not surprise me one bit that they would be devoted to these books.
First of all, this is pure hear-say. Once again, should we all discount the Holy See in favor of this?
Secondly, is this the same Bishop Hnilica?
D. Under the influence of Bishop Hnilica, who has been involved with the propagation of a number of non-recognised and even condemned “alleged apparitions,” i.e., Teresa Lopez, of Denver, also Vassula Ryden, and Medjugorje) and Rev. Father P. Klos (now suspended by Cardinal Simonis and revoked by his s.s.s. order), the public devotion to Mary under the title “Lady of all Nations” was authorised by Bishop Bomers and assistant Bishop Punt on 31.05.1996. At this time a distinction was expressly made between the title and the "apparitions’ and “messages”. No judgment was passed about the supernatural character of the “apparitions” and the contents of “the messages”.
And, other interesting reads about Bishop Hnilica,
unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TheresaLopez.html
And, of course the “God’s Banker” scandal…(scroll all the way down to the bottom to the heading: "The Vatican Bank Scandal"
There was a curious footnote to the IOR scandal. In 1993, an Italian court convicted Slovak-born Bishop Pavel Hnilica of losing $2.8 million of Church funds by trying to buy a suitcase supposedly containing documents that would absolve the Vatican of blame. The seller who decamped with the cash was one of the men now charged with Calvi’s murder.
E
Eileen_T
Guest
I originally posted
It will be interesting to contrast them to The Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda which I am reading at present.
I guess after all I have read from those on both sides of this controversy, I am just going to have to get the books and read them from start to finish and make up my own mind.
It will be interesting to contrast them to The Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda which I am reading at present.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Eileen T:
Will it be in light of the teachings of the Church or in the absence of it? By that I mean, what is your background with regards to theology?
Will it be with an open mind as to the authenticity of it, or do you give assent to what the CDF has already proclaimed, that the visions and dictations are not of supernatural origin?
I must say that in light of the what has been revealed from the Holy See itself, why not spend that time diving into more of the writings from those whose revelations are confirmed and supported by the Holy See?
It’s kind of like the Medjugorje issue. Some who visit there have done so many times, but will not invest one trip to Fatima or Lourdes, both of which are approved. Medjugorje is so clouded in controversy and the local Ordinary and the Bishop’s conference ha already ruled.
I’m just curious. When you make up your own mind…
Will it be in light of the teachings of the Church or in the absence of it? By that I mean, what is your background with regards to theology?
Will it be with an open mind as to the authenticity of it, or do you give assent to what the CDF has already proclaimed, that the visions and dictations are not of supernatural origin?
I must say that in light of the what has been revealed from the Holy See itself, why not spend that time diving into more of the writings from those whose revelations are confirmed and supported by the Holy See?
It’s kind of like the Medjugorje issue. Some who visit there have done so many times, but will not invest one trip to Fatima or Lourdes, both of which are approved. Medjugorje is so clouded in controversy and the local Ordinary and the Bishop’s conference ha already ruled.
C
Character_Zero
Guest
Wow… now you are digging up dirt on Bishop Hnilica? One of JPIIs close friends? Modernists do not like people like Bishop Hnilica who still believe in miracles.
The Holy See has never authoritatively declared that Catholics are not to read Il Poema dell’Uomo-Dio, or that it contains heresy.
It was widely distributed in Italy with papal imprimatur until 2 MODERNISTS decided to launch a campaign against it.
If the Index were abolished at a different point in history, I wonder if you all would be arguing that we should “stay away from that Aquinas heretic” or “don’t read the Bible.”
Yes, what my uncle told me is “hear-say.” I heard it when he said it. And like I said before, I would not expect opponents of Valtorta to believe me? Why would you? Anecdotal evidence doesn’t hold up in arguments. But I know these facts to be true, if you do not want to believe them, so be it.
Mitch Pacwa is a great priest, but I respect the opinions of Padre Pio, John Paul the Great, Gabriele Roschini, and Mother Theresa much more.
Frankly, I would love to hear Pope Benedict’s personal opinion on these books. He was so close to JPII in so many things.
The Holy See has never authoritatively declared that Catholics are not to read Il Poema dell’Uomo-Dio, or that it contains heresy.
It was widely distributed in Italy with papal imprimatur until 2 MODERNISTS decided to launch a campaign against it.
If the Index were abolished at a different point in history, I wonder if you all would be arguing that we should “stay away from that Aquinas heretic” or “don’t read the Bible.”
Yes, what my uncle told me is “hear-say.” I heard it when he said it. And like I said before, I would not expect opponents of Valtorta to believe me? Why would you? Anecdotal evidence doesn’t hold up in arguments. But I know these facts to be true, if you do not want to believe them, so be it.
Mitch Pacwa is a great priest, but I respect the opinions of Padre Pio, John Paul the Great, Gabriele Roschini, and Mother Theresa much more.
Frankly, I would love to hear Pope Benedict’s personal opinion on these books. He was so close to JPII in so many things.
C
Character_Zero
Guest
By the way, I’m seeing my uncle tomorrow, and I am going to ask him about these accusations against Bishop Hnilica.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Character Zero:
Posted and chopped for space since it was already posted fully once, are the words of, Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Ratzinger.
SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
Prot. N. 144/85 Roma, 31 January 1985
Most Reverend Eminence,
…
**On this subject I have the honor of expressing to Your Eminence – you will judge the opportuneness of informing the Father …] – that in fact the Work in question was placed on the Index on 16 December 1959 and defined by “L’Osservatore Romano” of 6 January 1960, as “A Badly Novelized Life of Jesus.” The provisions of the Decree were re-published with an explicit note again in L’Ossservatore Romano of 1 December 1961, as can be reviewed in the documentation herewith enclosed. **
Since some have subsequently held that after the abrogation of the Index, the printing and diffusion of the Work in question is licit, L’Osservatore Romano (15 June 1966) had presented what was published in A.A.S. (1966) Acta Apostolicae Sedis]: **that, although abolished, the “Index” retained “all its moral value,” for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. **
…
For Your Most Reverend Eminence,
Most Devotedly,
(signed) Joseph Card. Ratzinger (with enclosure)
Lets dissect just a piece of this:
**that, although abolished, the “Index” retained “all its moral value,” **
[Keep in mind, he is referring to “Poem of the Man-God”. This means that even though the list was done-away with, there were morally relevant things there]
for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially
**
but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful.
[Translated: Danger! Danger! Danger! for the common Catholic]
Of course, supporters will believe what they want and will use every source available to support their desire to cling on to the idea that what is in that book comes from a divine source, even to the point of discounting the authority we should give greatest weight - Holy Mother Church.
If the former Cardinal Ratzinger felt a need to review the material personally and comment on it, he would have. He trusted that the work had been done. I’m sure he investigated much of that work, but there is no need for him to physically take a copy and read it.
Well, Pope Benedict XVI has spoken. Apparently, you simply don’t want to hear it. Its not like new information came out between 1985 and 1993 when he reaffirmed this letter when he instructed the Bishop of Birmingham Alabama to relay the bad news to the founder of Caritas (posted fully further up the thread).
Posted and chopped for space since it was already posted fully once, are the words of, Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Ratzinger.
SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
Prot. N. 144/85 Roma, 31 January 1985
Most Reverend Eminence,
…
**On this subject I have the honor of expressing to Your Eminence – you will judge the opportuneness of informing the Father …] – that in fact the Work in question was placed on the Index on 16 December 1959 and defined by “L’Osservatore Romano” of 6 January 1960, as “A Badly Novelized Life of Jesus.” The provisions of the Decree were re-published with an explicit note again in L’Ossservatore Romano of 1 December 1961, as can be reviewed in the documentation herewith enclosed. **
Since some have subsequently held that after the abrogation of the Index, the printing and diffusion of the Work in question is licit, L’Osservatore Romano (15 June 1966) had presented what was published in A.A.S. (1966) Acta Apostolicae Sedis]: **that, although abolished, the “Index” retained “all its moral value,” for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. **
…
For Your Most Reverend Eminence,
Most Devotedly,
(signed) Joseph Card. Ratzinger (with enclosure)
Lets dissect just a piece of this:
**that, although abolished, the “Index” retained “all its moral value,” **
[Keep in mind, he is referring to “Poem of the Man-God”. This means that even though the list was done-away with, there were morally relevant things there]
for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially
**
but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful.
[Translated: Danger! Danger! Danger! for the common Catholic]
Of course, supporters will believe what they want and will use every source available to support their desire to cling on to the idea that what is in that book comes from a divine source, even to the point of discounting the authority we should give greatest weight - Holy Mother Church.
If the former Cardinal Ratzinger felt a need to review the material personally and comment on it, he would have. He trusted that the work had been done. I’m sure he investigated much of that work, but there is no need for him to physically take a copy and read it.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
More food for thought on private revelations - an example of how things can go down when you put too much stock into them before full Church approval or after the Church declares there is nothing of divine supernatural origin.
Hopefully, this gives people reason to pause.
Satanic Mimicry
Fr. Groeschel cites the case of the Franciscan nun, Magdalena of the Cross, who had been “three times abbess of her monastery at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Complete with self-inflicted stigmata and the ability to levitate above the earth, with ecstasies and the gift of prophesy, she even convinced others that she had lived without food. She enjoyed a reputation for extraordinary holiness for several decades. Bishops, clergy, great nobles, and even inquisitors flocked to her. She succeeded in deluding a large number of Spanish theologians who prided themselves on not being easily taken in. However, in danger of death, she confessed that the whole thing was a fabrication and that in fact she inflicted the stigmata on herself. By her own admission she had sold her soul to Satan in return for all of these deceptive gifts, and she actually had to be subjected to exorcism” (A Still Small Voice, pp. 45-46). Rallying rom her illness, the nun attempted to stage a “come-back,” and spent her remaining years in the care of the Inquisition.
Can you imagine that? She physically levitated or floated above her bed - something some saints did when in ecstasy. However, the devil is just as capable of causing levitation in people. And, he did, in this nun.
Full article here:
geocities.com/militantis/medjugorje.html
Hopefully, this gives people reason to pause.
Satanic Mimicry
Fr. Groeschel cites the case of the Franciscan nun, Magdalena of the Cross, who had been “three times abbess of her monastery at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Complete with self-inflicted stigmata and the ability to levitate above the earth, with ecstasies and the gift of prophesy, she even convinced others that she had lived without food. She enjoyed a reputation for extraordinary holiness for several decades. Bishops, clergy, great nobles, and even inquisitors flocked to her. She succeeded in deluding a large number of Spanish theologians who prided themselves on not being easily taken in. However, in danger of death, she confessed that the whole thing was a fabrication and that in fact she inflicted the stigmata on herself. By her own admission she had sold her soul to Satan in return for all of these deceptive gifts, and she actually had to be subjected to exorcism” (A Still Small Voice, pp. 45-46). Rallying rom her illness, the nun attempted to stage a “come-back,” and spent her remaining years in the care of the Inquisition.
Can you imagine that? She physically levitated or floated above her bed - something some saints did when in ecstasy. However, the devil is just as capable of causing levitation in people. And, he did, in this nun.
Full article here:
geocities.com/militantis/medjugorje.html
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Eliza10
Guest
Character Zero:
Jesus was one of them!
This dirt-digging doesn’t sit right with me. I have never heard of Bishop Hnilica, but I am not going to be quick to beleive the dirt thats posted here without good reason. Really good people get dirt slung at them. They get things made up about them. Particularly people who stand firm for what is right.
Jesus was one of them!
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Eliza10
Guest
I know for certain there are two sides to an issue. And just because there are tons of websites, tons of reputable people, even bookstores full of best selling books about a thing, doesn’t mean it automatically has credibility.
I know that by experience having been an Evangelical Protestasnt. All the evidence in my life said I was in the right faith and the Catholics were in the wrong one. Then I decided to trust God and expose myself to hearing what the Catholics have to say for themselves. I was afraid – I could be decieved by the Great Liar who had all those Catholics fooled!
But I trusted God to be with me when I went into this “shady” territory, and asked the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth.
Thats how I ended up being Catholic.
Now is that a fluke - that I went against the cautions of everyone I knew and respected as Christians to learn in this new area of faith, Catholicism, and i didn’t get mislead but thankfully was learning about something really ture?
Becasue hypothetically I could have done the same experiment with something that wasn’t of God - if I had prayed the same prayer I prayed when I looked into a wrong thing, would the Holy Spirit not have helped me - and then I would have been decieved?
I absolutely believe it was the Holy Spirit that lead me into all truth - the Cahtolic Chruch, and when i read Valtorta I trust the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. I know, because I have trusted Him before, and I know His voice.
Jesus says, “My sheep know my voice.” I believe Him, with all my heart. I trust in Him, that this Word of His is true. Jesus, can I know Your voice? You say I can. I believe it.
So there is heated controbversy with Valtorta but it is NOT banned! It was banned, and for very suspect reasons! It no longer is!
It is NOT banned so I don’t like being told I am aiming to undermine the teaching authority of the Chruch! I am completely loyal to the Chruch, as I am completely loyal to Christ, to the Holy Spirit, and how He speaks to my conscience. And with Valtorta, there is not conflict between that and the Chruch! It has not been definatively banned.
Yes, i read what was written here with the Radzinger letter, closely. I see: **to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. **
Diane defines “unprepared faithful” thus: “How do we define prepared and unprepared? I’d say at the very least, one ought to have a MA in Theology…” That is a personal opinion and my personal opinion is differnt. I think there is room here to think, as the Vatican has not definitively banned the books. And I don’t consider myself “unprepared faithful”, and I do not have an MA in theology!
I guess this realy matters to me because at first I thought I could not compare and contrast Catholicsim and Protestanism without a theology degreee - and a lot of time. But I rejected that thought and trusted that God could lead me into all truth anyway. And he did - without the degree and in very short time! Way shorter than I could have ever dreamed!*
I know that by experience having been an Evangelical Protestasnt. All the evidence in my life said I was in the right faith and the Catholics were in the wrong one. Then I decided to trust God and expose myself to hearing what the Catholics have to say for themselves. I was afraid – I could be decieved by the Great Liar who had all those Catholics fooled!
But I trusted God to be with me when I went into this “shady” territory, and asked the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth.
Thats how I ended up being Catholic.
Now is that a fluke - that I went against the cautions of everyone I knew and respected as Christians to learn in this new area of faith, Catholicism, and i didn’t get mislead but thankfully was learning about something really ture?
Becasue hypothetically I could have done the same experiment with something that wasn’t of God - if I had prayed the same prayer I prayed when I looked into a wrong thing, would the Holy Spirit not have helped me - and then I would have been decieved?
I absolutely believe it was the Holy Spirit that lead me into all truth - the Cahtolic Chruch, and when i read Valtorta I trust the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. I know, because I have trusted Him before, and I know His voice.
Jesus says, “My sheep know my voice.” I believe Him, with all my heart. I trust in Him, that this Word of His is true. Jesus, can I know Your voice? You say I can. I believe it.
So there is heated controbversy with Valtorta but it is NOT banned! It was banned, and for very suspect reasons! It no longer is!
It is NOT banned so I don’t like being told I am aiming to undermine the teaching authority of the Chruch! I am completely loyal to the Chruch, as I am completely loyal to Christ, to the Holy Spirit, and how He speaks to my conscience. And with Valtorta, there is not conflict between that and the Chruch! It has not been definatively banned.
Yes, i read what was written here with the Radzinger letter, closely. I see: **to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. **
Diane defines “unprepared faithful” thus: “How do we define prepared and unprepared? I’d say at the very least, one ought to have a MA in Theology…” That is a personal opinion and my personal opinion is differnt. I think there is room here to think, as the Vatican has not definitively banned the books. And I don’t consider myself “unprepared faithful”, and I do not have an MA in theology!
I guess this realy matters to me because at first I thought I could not compare and contrast Catholicsim and Protestanism without a theology degreee - and a lot of time. But I rejected that thought and trusted that God could lead me into all truth anyway. And he did - without the degree and in very short time! Way shorter than I could have ever dreamed!*
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Eliza10
Guest
Diane, you also say, “The worst thing anyone can do when it comes to private revelations not yet approved by the Church is to let their emotions get involved.” That is also an opinion, and my opinion is different. Emotions play a part. God does speak thru the emotions. One feels a great peace, a peace that passes all understanding when one is align with Gods will for ones life. When one is listening to the wrong voices, one feels stressed, anxious, not peaceful. Its like that way most of the time. I know ther are times when one is not in tune with what one is feeling. But God the Creator did create our emotions and they are not to be discounted. They play a part. They can be involved. Everyone is designed differently. Sometimes God speaks to certain people very strongly thru their emotions, othres more thru their logic.
I have a lot of emotions when I read Valtorta’s work. I feel humbled to have discovered such a gift. I feel such love for Christ as he is revealed. I feel peace and joy. I feel thrilled to be “walking” with Christ as he walked on earth. I feel unsurprised by Gods goodness because he is so good. I feel grateful for his generous merciful goodness that he would give our generation this amazing gift so that we could have comfort in Him in these difficult days. Most of all I feel a certain conviction : “This is Jesus!” This is how he walked, how he spoke, how he worked.
I have not closed the door completely on the matter. I could turn out to be wrong. But everything tells me its right. And the only thing that will convince me otherwise is if the Vatican definatively bans the work. I do NOT see a definitive banning - I realize that you, Diane, do. And I respect that.
And if the Vatican ever does definitively ban it - and I don’t htink it will - I would expect a good explanation! I don’t think the Church expects us to shut our minds off. In the past, She has been good enough to give us fully reasonable explanations for things and I would not expect this to be any different. And I know the explanation won’t be that “Jesus is homosexual” in this work. When I see that I have to laugh.
I realize for some the letter Diane quoted here is definitive enough. Fine for you who haven’t read Valtorta’s work. You can’t know, then, how impossible that seems to me. But if the “impossible” happens, then I will turn to Christ and ask, “How can this be?” I don’t think He will leave me in the cold, but somehow help me to understand. You, Diane, and others won’t have that need to understand, because you would have no conflict over something you haven’t read.
I have a lot of emotions when I read Valtorta’s work. I feel humbled to have discovered such a gift. I feel such love for Christ as he is revealed. I feel peace and joy. I feel thrilled to be “walking” with Christ as he walked on earth. I feel unsurprised by Gods goodness because he is so good. I feel grateful for his generous merciful goodness that he would give our generation this amazing gift so that we could have comfort in Him in these difficult days. Most of all I feel a certain conviction : “This is Jesus!” This is how he walked, how he spoke, how he worked.
I have not closed the door completely on the matter. I could turn out to be wrong. But everything tells me its right. And the only thing that will convince me otherwise is if the Vatican definatively bans the work. I do NOT see a definitive banning - I realize that you, Diane, do. And I respect that.
And if the Vatican ever does definitively ban it - and I don’t htink it will - I would expect a good explanation! I don’t think the Church expects us to shut our minds off. In the past, She has been good enough to give us fully reasonable explanations for things and I would not expect this to be any different. And I know the explanation won’t be that “Jesus is homosexual” in this work. When I see that I have to laugh.
I realize for some the letter Diane quoted here is definitive enough. Fine for you who haven’t read Valtorta’s work. You can’t know, then, how impossible that seems to me. But if the “impossible” happens, then I will turn to Christ and ask, “How can this be?” I don’t think He will leave me in the cold, but somehow help me to understand. You, Diane, and others won’t have that need to understand, because you would have no conflict over something you haven’t read.
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Eliza10
Guest
Diane, you wrote, “Well, Pope Benedict XVI has spoken…” We can’t overlook the fact that he was not speaking as Pope here. Of course we would all see it differently if he had. You only want us to see his statements as if he said them as Pope, but that is not the fact.
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Eliza10
Guest
Wow, Diane, you also wrote, "If the former Cardinal Ratzinger felt a need to review the material personally and comment on it, he would have. He trusted that the work had been done. I’m sure he investigated much of that work, but there is no need for him to physically take a copy and read it."I can see why you are such a proponent of Cardinal Radzingers comments on the book he didn’t read, since you also didn’t read the book so you also aren’t bothered by the comments about it. But you are arguing with people here who HAVE read the book.
That explains why we aren’t connecting on this.
That explains why we aren’t connecting on this.
- Status