I need help with this discussion I was having

[Francis]

to which she said that Our Lord was still under the law when He said that, but that after his death that was no longer the case?

Jesus was under the law for our sake, but he was always above the law since he kept all the commandments and fulfilled the law in word and letter,as everything was subject to him.

Hebrews 2: 1 Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the message declared through angels was valid, and every transgression or disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? It was declared at first through the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, 4 while God added his testimony by signs and wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, distributed according to his will.5 Now God did not subject the coming world, about which we are speaking, to angels. 6 But someone has testified somewhere,

“What are human beings that you are mindful of them,or mortals, that you care for them?
7 You have made them for a little while lower than the angels;you have crowned them with glory and honor,8 subjecting all things under their feet.”

Now in subjecting all things to them, God left nothing outside their control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to them, 9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters 12 saying,“I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters,in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.”13 And again,“I will put my trust in him.”And again,“Here am I and the children whom God has given me.”14 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. 16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels, but the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself was tested by what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.

1 Peter 3:21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God fora good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The angels had free will one time. They had to decide to submit to God or to reject God. After that decision, they no longer have free will, their will is fixed

 

[Francis]

@Gabrielle

To this she replied that we are no longer under the law but under grace,

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted,

Matthew 7:12 “In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

Philippians 2:5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,6 who, though he was in the form of God,did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,7 but emptied himself,taking the form of a slave,being born in human likeness.And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross.9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father.

We get grace by keeping the commandments,and the precepts of the Church and through the 7 sacraments instituted by Jesus,as the Church (1 Timothy 3:15)… which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.Mt 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

We also lose grace when we sin as Samson did ,and grace is restored each time we confess in the sacrament of confession

 

[TheLittleLady]

As a resource, Dr Peter Kreeft has written extensively about angels.

 

[Gabrielle]

Thank you for correcting me! That was bad, I honestly made a mistake there!

 

[Gabrielle]

Thank you! I will check him out!

 

[Francis]

Why didn’t Almighty God simply destroy the rebellious angels?
All of them.

Because it said in 1 John 3: 8 Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. God has his, backup plans for us,

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

he will do it at the appointed time

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming.

 

[Lee1]

I thought it was because God can make good come from evil, that’s why He allows the enemy to serve Him, providing us with temptations and trials to cause us to become like tempered steel and to seek help from God.

Between them and our natural concupiscence we are driven into Gods arms after all. In a world with no need we would become complacent apart from the need to understand death I think.

 

[Pattylt]

Why didn’t Almighty God simply destroy the rebellious angels?
All of them.

I’m interested in the answer to this as well! Is it answered?

Oops, never mind…answered later

 

[Lee1]

Not to my satisfaction. My answer above is how I think the answer should be framed, but I could be very wrong.

I personally don’t see how God could have lost control of His creation in such a way. I’m also not convinced that the bad angels were thrown out of heaven and sent to earth to occupy a space where mankind was living. I think we probably had enough problems without being surrounded by the enemy 24/7/365 forever!

I don’t think I’ll get an answer to put my mind at rest.

 

[vsedriver]

I personally don’t see how God could have lost control of His creation in such a way.

God didn’t ‘lose’ control. He permitted free will because perfect love can’t be coerced.

I’m also not convinced that the bad angels were thrown out of heaven and sent to earth to occupy a space where mankind was living.

Revelation 12:8-9 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Job 1 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

7 And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it.

so scripture clearly says that the Devil was loose in the world of Man. God permits the devil to tempt man. Remember, God’s ways are not our ways. You must trust that God knows what he is doing.

 

[Lee1]

God didn’t ‘lose’ control. He permitted free will because perfect love can’t be coerced.

I thought the angels didn’t have free will, they were created creatures to His will alone no?

Secondly, I do think that God knows exactly what He’s doing.

 

[TheLittleLady]

As stated above, the Angels were created and given ONE free will choice. After that their will is fixed to God or in rejection of God.

 

[vsedriver]

I thought the angels didn’t have free will, they were created creatures to His will alone no?

they were also given a choice. A one time choice but then their wills were fixed. Those that chose to server remained with God in Heaven forever with him. Those that chose not to serve were cast out, forever without him.

Man was created differently. Our wills are not fixed until we die.

 

[Lee1]

But why on earth, they could have been cast out to Jupiter or Betelgeuse or on the other side of the universe?

 

[lagerald24]

Lee1,

The existence of free will doesn’t deny the fact of God’s plan or providence because, in fact, God created humans and angels with free will. His knowledge of future actions does not imply that He actively causes those actions. In His perfect plan, God has taken into account those foreseen actions of created beings and has incorporated them into His plan. He didn’t impel or force Lucifer to reject Him but He allowed it out of respect for Lucifer’s choice and for a greater good.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Because God so willed it.

 

[vsedriver]

But why on earth, they could have been cast out to Jupiter or Betelgeuse or on the other side of the universe?

Because God uses the Devil for His own purposes… He has allowed Satan to dominate humanity for two basic reasons. First, Adam and Eve, our first parents, chose Satan’s domination over them. Second, God wants all of humanity to learn important lessons—that “the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps” (Jeremiah 10:23) and that Satan’s way leads to misery and suffering.

The book of Job is an excellent source for this.

 

[lagerald24]

Hell is the eternal lot of misery awaiting those who die in a state of grave sin and at enmity with God. Lucifer and his lot, having a will and not yet enjoying the Beatific Vision, chose NOT to serve God and thus were cast into a painful state where they are separated from God.

 

[Francis]

I thought it was because God can make good come from evil,

sure he can,if the will of God is for the greater good of the soul

that’s why He allows the enemy to serve Him, providing us with temptations and trials to cause us to become like tempered steel and to seek help from God.

James 1:13 No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. 14 But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death.

Sirach 15:11 Do not say, “It was the Lord’s doing that I fell away”;for he does not do what he hates.
12 Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”;for he has no need of the sinful.13 The Lord hates all abominations;such things are not loved by those who fear him.14 It was he who created humankind in the beginning,and he left them in the power of their own free choice.15 If you choose, you can keep the commandments,and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.20 He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,and he has not given anyone permission to sin.

I’m also not convinced that the bad angels were thrown out of heaven and sent to earth to occupy a space where mankind was living. I think we probably had enough problems without being surrounded by the enemy 24/7/365 forever!

God wants us to rule by his grace midst our foes(satan and evil spirits,wicked people) Psalms 110:2 The Lord sends out from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes((satan and evil spirits,wicked people)).Psalm 74:23 Do not forget the clamor of your foes(satan and evil spirits,wicked people), the uproar of your adversaries that goes up continually.