I need help . . .

[zach_dunn]

I have a story to tell but first I would like to say something as kind of a disclaimer. This post will eventually get on the topic of the child molesting priest scandal, I would just like to say that I do not want anyone posting in this thread to attack the Catholic Church. If you have something constructive to say, by all means post, but I really do not want any attacks on the Church because of the scandal . . . anyway, here it goes.

So today, on the drive home from working with my dad and uncle today, and my dad ended up making an allusion to Purgatory. The way he said it implied that we are currently going through Purgatory right now on earth. My uncle agreed with them, and I kindly corrected them (they both come from a Catholic background, my dad has lapsed into quasi-atheism, he facetiously teases me about my faith while on occasion taking it WAY TOO FAR; my uncle kind of attended a seminary when he was 14, but left and got into trouble with the law, now he doesn’t go to church but claims to know Scripture fairly well [he doesn’t, really, as far as I can tell], that’s the background on those two).

I said, “Purgatory is a temporary state where the souls that are not bad enough for hell yet not perfectly clean for heaven go to be purified in order to be in the presence of God and see Him face-to-face.” He then started talking about suffering on earth and I stopped him and said that suffering is part of the Christian life, and that we are called to take up our cross and follow Christ. I said that Purgatory is a state we are in after death, we can lessen our “time” in Purgatory by frequently receiving the Eucharist, going to confession and doing penance.

After this spiel my uncle asked my how I knew I was right. I said, “I’m right because the Catholic Church who gave us the doctrine in the first place says it’s after death [that’s what he was questioning].” He then got a very ugly look on his face and yelled, "the Catholic Church don’t [sic] know ****! All of those priests who molested little children were just moved to another place to molest more children! The Bible says, ‘it is easier for rich man to pass through the eye of a needle then to get into heaven, and also someone who harms a child.’ " Thankfully my dad, strictly adhering to the doctrine of never talking about money, politics, and religion to anyone finally said he was going to jump out of the car if we did not stop.

Now, my question is this, what do I say to him? I’m going to be seeing him tonight for New Year’s Eve and I’m fairly confident the topic will come up again. I am in no way asking for anyone to defend the priest scandal, what those priests did was wrong and they deserve to be punished. I just need to show that the Church is now wrong when it comes to the faith because it made a mistake in not putting the priests on trial. Also, I’m not sure what he meant when he tried to quote the Bible by saying “and also someone who harms a child,” is he referring to Mt 18:6? Thanks for your help.

 

[workingman]

I have a story to tell but first I would like to say something as kind of a disclaimer. This post will eventually get on the topic of the child molesting priest scandal, I would just like to say that I do not want anyone posting in this thread to attack the Catholic Church. If you have something constructive to say, by all means post, but I really do not want any attacks on the Church because of the scandal . . . anyway, here it goes.

So today, on the drive home from working with my dad and uncle today, and my dad ended up making an allusion to Purgatory. The way he said it implied that we are currently going through Purgatory right now on earth. My uncle agreed with them, and I kindly corrected them (they both come from a Catholic background, my dad has lapsed into quasi-atheism, he facetiously teases me about my faith while on occasion taking it WAY TOO FAR; my uncle kind of attended a seminary when he was 14, but left and got into trouble with the law, now he doesn’t go to church but claims to know Scripture fairly well [he doesn’t, really, as far as I can tell], that’s the background on those two).

I said, “Purgatory is a temporary state where the souls that are not bad enough for hell yet not perfectly clean for heaven go to be purified in order to be in the presence of God and see Him face-to-face.” He then started talking about suffering on earth and I stopped him and said that suffering is part of the Christian life, and that we are called to take up our cross and follow Christ. I said that Purgatory is a state we are in after death, we can lessen our “time” in Purgatory by frequently receiving the Eucharist, going to confession and doing penance.

After this spiel my uncle asked my how I knew I was right. I said, “I’m right because the Catholic Church who gave us the doctrine in the first place says it’s after death [that’s what he was questioning].” He then got a very ugly look on his face and yelled, "the Catholic Church don’t [sic] know ****! All of those priests who molested little children were just moved to another place to molest more children! The Bible says, ‘it is easier for rich man to pass through the eye of a needle then to get into heaven, and also someone who harms a child.’ " Thankfully my dad, strictly adhering to the doctrine of never talking about money, politics, and religion to anyone finally said he was going to jump out of the car if we did not stop.

Now, my question is this, what do I say to him? I’m going to be seeing him tonight for New Year’s Eve and I’m fairly confident the topic will come up again. I am in no way asking for anyone to defend the priest scandal, what those priests did was wrong and they deserve to be punished. I just need to show that the Church is now wrong when it comes to the faith because it made a mistake in not putting the priests on trial. Also, I’m not sure what he meant when he tried to quote the Bible by saying “and also someone who harms a child,” is he referring to Mt 18:6? Thanks for your help.

Zach, Let me start with Matt 18:6. Lets put it in context by starting at verse one though verse ten.
Matt 18:1-10 (Douay-Rheims)(the green comes from Haydoc comentairy)(sp)
1 At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.

6 But he that shall scandalize (this would be to put a stumbling block) one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be (this is wickedness of the world) that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. 8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee (Cause one to offend), cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

I don’t know what he is exactly referring to but if it is Matt 18:6 he needs to read the whole context.

The church is correct on purgatory. There are several references to this in scripture as a place after death. For good references to this I recommend going to scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html#purgatory-I

Luke 16:19-31, 2 Macc. 12:44-45, Rev. 21:27, 1 Cor. 15:29-30, 1 Cor. 3:10-15, 1 Peter 1:6-7, Zech. 13:8-9

I hope you find some of this helpful. God bless

 

[prodigalson12]

What we overcome in this life shortens the time we spend in purgatory, or lengthens it. We are in it, in a sense in that regard, we are not in the sense, of never being able to go back, for we are living beings and our fate is not sealed until our last breath. What your elders were discussing, context wise, is beyond your understanding, trust me on this.

 

[zach_dunn]

What your elders were discussing, context wise, is beyond your understanding, trust me on this.

Actually, it wasn’t beyond my understanding, it was a religious joke. My dad was talking about football, he said that Randy Moss’ time with the Vikings was his time in Purgatory . . . so yeah. Trust me on this one, my dad is not the deepest religious thinker . . . and I do not mean any disrespect by this, I love my father, but he just doesn’t really care about religion.

 

[prodigalson12]

Actually, it wasn’t beyond my understanding, it was a religious joke. My dad was talking about football, he said that Randy Moss’ time with the Vikings was his time in Purgatory . . . so yeah. Trust me on this one, my dad is not the deepest religious thinker . . . and I do not mean any disrespect by this, I love my father, but he just doesn’t really care about religion.

My dad doesn’t beleive in religion as well. It’s too bad, but it should not prevent us from not having the same in that regard.

 

[DavidFilmer]

He then got a very ugly look on his face and yelled, "the Catholic Church don’t [sic] know ****! All of those priests who molested little children were just moved to another place to molest more children!

Of course, he is correct, in that the Church includes both Saints and sinners. The Catholic Church has always counted sinners amongst Her members, and even amongst Her leaders (and even Her Popes). After all, our first Pope, St. Peter, denied Our Lord three times (even after being told he would do so, and strongly denying it).

But the Church is greater than the sum of Her parts, because She is the Bride of Jesus Christ, and is pure (in Her doctrine, if not in Her members).

 

[loonie]

I would tell him to re-read Mathew 16:18 - “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Not only does it affirm Peters status as our first pope, but it also says evil will TRY to break the church (ie. Priest sex scandal, Reformation, inquisition,etc.). This a mark of the church that many never focus on. Most people look for the unblemished church that looks completely pristine. The bible paints a different picture of the church, one that has and will withstand attacks against her. Satan would love nothing better than to turn people away from the Catholic church using these scandals and move them towards other churches which caters to peoples desire of having a worship service that pleases their senses.

 

[zach_dunn]

I would tell him to re-read Mathew 16:18 - “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Not only does it affirm Peters status as our first pope, but it also says evil will TRY to break the church (ie. Priest sex scandal, Reformation, inquisition,etc.). This a mark of the church that many never focus on. Most people look for the unblemished church that looks completely pristine. The bible paints a different picture of the church, one that has and will withstand attacks against her. Satan would love nothing better than to turn people away from the Catholic church using these scandals and move them towards other churches which caters to peoples desire of having a worship service that pleases their senses.

His problem is not that there are bad people in the Church, as DavidFilmer pointed out, he recognizes that there are sinners and saints in Christ’s Church. His problem is that in many (maybe all) of the cases, the Church simply moved the accused priest to a new diocese, and many of the priests were never prosecuted and such. I’m not sure if that is true for I haven’t researched it much, but that’s what is keeping him from thinking the Church is the true Church, because of it’s lack of action.

 

[juniorapologist]

After this spiel my uncle asked my how I knew I was right. I said, “I’m right because the Catholic Church who gave us the doctrine in the first place says it’s after death [that’s what he was questioning].” He then got a very ugly look on his face and yelled, "the Catholic Church don’t [sic] know ****! All of those priests who molested little children were just moved to another place to molest more children! The Bible says, ‘it is easier for rich man to pass through the eye of a needle then to get into heaven, and also someone who harms a child.’ " Thankfully my dad, strictly adhering to the doctrine of never talking about money, politics, and religion to anyone finally said he was going to jump out of the car if we did not stop.

Hi Zach…

I knew I saved this link for a reason.

catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

It helps to put the child molestation issue into perspective a bit. No excuses, just trying to be fair. Your Uncle might need to know some real facts and figures. Some people are under the impression that every Catholic Church has at least one molesting priest. Simply not true.