I need help!

[jersen05]

good day to all.

my friend and i usually debate about our faith. im Catholic and he’s Church of Christ (manalo Version in the Philippines). so we debate and come to a conclusion about the gentiles.

he told me:
there is a verse in the bible that “there will be another flock” in the future.

I told Him:
that other flock are the gentiles.

He told me:
Nope! there are verses after that that the gentiles were members of the church so there will be another flock in the future.

I told him:
I dont believe that. because in the bible jesus said that he did not come for the gentiles but the israelites only (or something like that).

so we both agreed that we must prove our points.
which event happened 1st, the saying of jesus that there will be another flock or the time when he said he did not come for the gentiles but to israels only?

i hope you understand my explanation. to be serious, if i cant prove this i might convert to them, and if i prove that im right, i may be able to convince him to become a catholic.

thanks everyone.

and oh, the reason why i was so confident to prove our points was, i read that verse here in catholic answers and i know that members here will suport me. to be honest, im confident because of you guys, i know that you will always help. God Bless.

 

[JRKH]

Jesus minstry and sacrifice was to the Jewish people. It was left to the Apostles to go our and preach to the “Whole World… Baptizing in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

So Jesus came for the Jews, and then after the resurrection assigned the Apostles to reach out to the other flock (the Gentiles, or non Jews) in the rest of the world.

That is my understanding of it.

Peace
James

 

[mike52ad]

Dear Friend,
First, it is very dangerous to base any kind of a conclusion on a single sentence ripped from it’s context. In the United States of America there are over thirty nine thousand denominations becasue someone has taken one sentence out of context and made it into a sort of creed. .

Before we get to the core of your question I have to say that you scared me when you said that interpretation of this passage may cause you to leave the Church. Would you really leave the Church that has the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Holy Eucharist for a church where you receive crackers and grape juice? Would you leave the Church founded by Christ while He was on earth and guarenteed to teach faith without error because we have the protection of the Holy Spirit for a church founded by Barton Stone and Alexander Cambell sometime between 1790 and 1860, a denomination that split from another Presbyterian denomination which split from Luther and Knox and other rebels? You would be trading Gold for clay my friend I urge you to rethink your Catholic heritage. Speak to a priest, learn more on your own and never ever give up your heritage as an adopted son of the Father in His Church. Now to your question:

The whole passage is from John 10: 14-16 (Jesus says

---

14 I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

When we place this sentence in context we can see that the “other flock” are those outside of the will and love provided by Jesus the good shepherd. So far from being something good or some sort of gnostic group with a secret to heaven, the other flock has run away and has left the fold and is leaderless. Jesus will gather them all together again.

We read in in 1Corinthians 21-28

21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, 23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits;then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; 24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

So I guess my point is this: The other flock are those Christians that are outside the Church. Christ will defeat all enemies including the divisions we have afflicted ourselves with. So it is better to be in the flock united with Christ than it is to be outside it. I hope this helps.

 

[graceandglory]

good day to all.

my friend and i usually debate about our faith. im Catholic and he’s Church of Christ (manalo Version in the Philippines). so we debate and come to a conclusion about the gentiles.

he told me:
there is a verse in the bible that “there will be another flock” in the future.

I told Him:
that other flock are the gentiles.

He told me:
Nope! there are verses after that that the gentiles were members of the church so there will be another flock in the future.

I told him:
I dont believe that. because in the bible jesus said that he did not come for the gentiles but the israelites only (or something like that).

so we both agreed that we must prove our points.
which event happened 1st, the saying of jesus that there will be another flock or the time when he said he did not come for the gentiles but to israels only?

i hope you understand my explanation. to be serious, if i cant prove this i might convert to them, and if i prove that im right, i may be able to convince him to become a catholic.

thanks everyone.

and oh, the reason why i was so confident to prove our points was, i read that verse here in catholic answers and i know that members here will suport me. to be honest, im confident because of you guys, i know that you will always help. God Bless.

can you post the scriptural references?

St. Augustine said that “the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old is fulfilled in the New.” Understanding this, we take the whole of Scripture in one fell swoop, rather than parsing it out word by word accepting only the literal meaning of the words.

Anyway, you don’t have to be confident of your faith, because of folks here at CAF, you can be confident because the Bible says this is the true church, your faith is founded on the Rock of Peter, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

 

[zach_dunn]

The verse in question:

John 10:16
And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Many people try to twist this passage to make it seem like their religion is the one being spoken about. Mormons try to twist this verse into meaning that the sheep who are not part of this fold are the Jews who settled in the Americas a very long time ago. The verse does actually refer to the Gentiles as the other sheep. This is evident because Jesus’ ministry was specifically for the Jewish people:

Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek [which means the same as Gentile].

After His Resurrection, the Apostles were sent to preach to everyone, including the Gentiles, thus making His flock one [Jn 10:16]:

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Mark 16:15
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.”

Acts 10:34-35
And Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”

Now the Gospel is open to everyone and Jesus’ will may be fulfilled. The “other sheep” definitely refers to the Gentiles.

 

[graceandglory]

Now the Gospel is open to everyone and Jesus’ will may be fulfilled. The “other sheep” definitely refers to the Gentiles.

That is what I was taught as a protestant too. Seems to be the orthodox interpretation of this verse. Does somebody have a new twist on this verse?

 

[jersen05]

From the verses above.

i want to see a time line. wherein "jesus first told this (verses) then said this (verse) and this (verse)… and so on. because the view of Church of Christ (Manalo Version) here is that before jesus went to heaven, he told that he have other sheep. by that time the jew and gentiles are members of church. so they are the fulfillment of the (Other Sheep).

by saying those above replies, he will ask me (my friend) “What is your proof that jesus first told this then this then this?”.

from the 2nd reply (i think) that told me that i was exchanging “God” for “clay”. that is the reason im doing my research, i want my friend to be one of us and of Jesus.

 

[Fidelis]

so we both agreed that we must prove our points.
which event happened 1st, the saying of jesus that there will be another flock or the time when he said he did not come for the gentiles but to israels only?

You are letting your friend lead you around by the nose like a carabou by letting him make up the rules and you following him. This is what you should tell your friend:

"My friend, you are using faulty reasoning and mis-using Sacred Scripture.

(A) It does not follow reason that just because Jesus said one thing first, it does not mean that what he said at a later time does not also apply to that situation. You must look at everything that Jesus says in the context of when he said it, and in his message as a whole, not by some artificial and childish timeline of your own making.

(B) Sacred Scripture itself says nothing about the timeline you have invented. You are twisting Scripture to what you want it to say this way."

i hope you understand my explanation. to be serious, if i cant prove this i might convert to them

With all due respect, if your Catholic Faith is so fragile and weak that it balances on an edge ready to fall if this one argument cannot be won, then perhaps you should not be engaging in apologetics until you learn more about the Faith and are confident enough to engage such masters of distortion and argumentive bullying as the INC. I’ve seen their broadcasts and watched their debates and they win arguments by preying off people’s ignorance and, if that doesn’t work, by shouting them down.

 

[Cachonga]

First, just a little bit off topic -

mike52ad:

First, it is very dangerous to base any kind of a conclusion on a single sentence ripped from it’s context. In the United States of America there are over thirty nine thousand denominations becasue someone has taken one sentence out of context and made it into a sort of creed. .

Where did you get this information? I have heard it before, from many RC Apologists, and I have looked up the reference they use (the World Christian Encyclopedia). If you would check that, you will find that these “denominations” are world-wide, not just restricted to the US. Furthermore, this source includes several Mormon, JW, and non-Trinitarian denominations (I don’t consider these as Christian, do you?), plus many more who do not even pretend to hold to Sola Scriptura. What I really find fascinating is that it indicates there are over 700 Orthodox Catholic denominations, as well as more than 240 Roman Catholic denominations. Which of the more than 1,000 Catholic denominations is the “One true church”? I would suggest that you check your sources carefully before passing along misleading information.

Now to the question - I agree that the Gentiles are the “other flock”. As far as using a time line - ask your friend when the Apostles actually started evangelizing the Gentiles (hint - look at Acts 10). He may point out that Jesus had “saved” other non-Jews (the Samaritan leper and the Cyro-Phoenician woman, to name a couple), but if this was a regular occurance, why did Peter have to explain his actions to the Elders in Jerusalem? Also, if the Gentiles were not “the other flock”, why did they need an Apostle (Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, and Peter, the Apostle to the Jews)? Your friend wants a time line, remind him that the evangilzation of the Gentiles didn’t begin until after Jesus had returned to Heaven.

 

[zach_dunn]

From the verses above.

i want to see a time line. wherein "jesus first told this (verses) then said this (verse) and this (verse)… and so on. because the view of Church of Christ (Manalo Version) here is that before jesus went to heaven, he told that he have other sheep. by that time the jew and gentiles are members of church. so they are the fulfillment of the (Other Sheep).

by saying those above replies, he will ask me (my friend) “What is your proof that jesus first told this then this then this?”.

from the 2nd reply (i think) that told me that i was exchanging “God” for “clay”. that is the reason im doing my research, i want my friend to be one of us and of Jesus.

I’m not exactly sure what you are asking, but I’ll answer to the best of my ability!

So let’s look at this verse again:

John 10:16
And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Notice that Christ’s words indicate a future event, they will heed His voice, and there shall be one flock. Technically the gospel was open to the Gentiles before Jesus’ Ascension per Mt 8:18-20 and Mk 16:15, but the gospel was not preached to them until Acts 10:16; at this point was Jesus’ flock made one: not when Felix Manalo came on the scene and founded Iglesia ni Cristo. For this to be true, a complete apostasy would have to happen which is not possible, for, if it did — or even could — happen, it would make Christ a liar. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. So, if you wanted a time line, I would give:

1. 
   *]Mt 10:5-6; 15:24; and Jn 10:16
   *]Mt 28:18-20; Mk 16:15 — when the gospel was open to everyone
   *]Christ’s Ascension
   *]Acts 10:34-35 — when the Gentiles actually received the gospel and Christ’s flock becomes one
   
   There is one specific thing I’d like to address:
   

   because the view of Church of Christ (Manalo Version) here is that before jesus went to heaven, he told that he have other sheep. by that time the jew and gentiles are members of church.

   The Gentiles were not members of the Church before Christ’s Ascension. To be a member of the Church, you need to be baptized [1 Cor 12:12-13; Col 1:24] and we know that the Gentiles were not baptized until Acts 10:34-35, so they could not have been Church members before Christ’s Ascension.

 

[mike52ad]

First, just a little bit off topic -

Where did you get this information? I have heard it before, from many RC Apologists, and I have looked up the reference they use (the World Christian Encyclopedia). If you would check that, you will find that these “denominations” are world-wide, not just restricted to the US. Furthermore, this source includes several Mormon, JW, and non-Trinitarian denominations (I don’t consider these as Christian, do you?), plus many more who do not even pretend to hold to Sola Scriptura. What I really find fascinating is that it indicates there are over 700 Orthodox Catholic denominations, as well as more than 240 Roman Catholic denominations. Which of the more than 1,000 Catholic denominations is the “One true church”? I would suggest that you check your sources carefully before passing along misleading information.

---

Not that it matters a lot, but I got the number from a talk I heard by Scott Hahn (I believe) , I also found it on the internet - About.com

There are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries.
World Christian Encyclopedia (2001)
The Major Denominations:
Roman Catholic - The Roman Catholic Church denomination is the largest Christian group in the world today with more than a billion followers constituting about half of the world’s Christian population.
Eastern Orthodox - Approximately 225 million people worldwide are Orthodox Christians.
Protestant - There are approximately 500 million Protestants in the world.

I say it does not matter a whole lot becasue once Martin Luther in his finite wisdom broke the unity of the Christian Church, it does not matter if there are 2 or 2 million denominations. - More than One is outside of God’s plan. We went against God’s view of what Church should be. My point was to read passages in their context. Please feel free to use any number of denominations you think there are. The Catholic Church, that is those Rites in communion with the Pope of Rome are One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Peace of Christ to you.

 

[ryanoneil]

The other sheep are Gentiles. Christ calls the Israelites living in the land of Judea, and Isrealites and Gentiles who are scattered throughout the Mediterranean and beyond. Thus Christ reunifies the human family by gathering believers frojm every nation into the divine family of God. (Is 43:5-7; 66:18-21; Jer 31:10)