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spacecadet
Guest
i need links of nonbiased historians that say the RCC goes back to peter. please share if you have any
thanks
thanks
I need links for nonbiased historians that say the catholic church goes back to peter
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Genesis315
Guest
There was a thing on the History Channel last night that said it
.The problem is, back in the days of early Christianity, no historians cared except Christian ones. Are the writings of Christians from the first couple centuries good enough for you?
Modern Catholic historians will of course support tha argument. Protestant historians and other religions will not of course, becuase it is an argument for the Church. Unfortunately, everybody’s biased when it comes to religion, even atheists.
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mercygate
Guest
Since the history of the early Church was written by Christians, anybody who is asking for “nonbiased” sources will not accept ANY source as nonbiased. The early writings of the Church Fathers will be easily found neatly indexed in William Jurgens’ handy three-volume Faith of the Early Fathers.
Have you checked the CA home page tracts?
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Please define for us what qualifies as an unbiased historian so we know what to accurately provide.
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spacecadet
Guest
i remember hearinn jesse romero speak about going to the library and looking up encylopedias, etc… and discovering that the RCC was indeed the church that Jesus founded. i was hoping for online sources, because i’m having a discussion in another forum
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LSK
Guest
Seriously, go to the History Channel link and see if there is anything on last night’s show. They may have the “Non-Catholic, Non-Christian” sources you need.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello space cadet,
Can you put yourself as Caesar in the first century? Ok, I order you Roman soldiers to go out there and kill all the Christians. I order you to feed them to the lions at the colliseium and crucify any Christian you find. I order you to destroy all Christian buildings and literature to wipe this plague from our empire.
Oh! but before you Roman soildiers go out on your campain to wipe the planet clean of Christianity, if you find a list of Popes from St. Peter on, carefully write it down for safe keeping in our library system. I am sure people 2000 years from now will be interested in reading about the succession of popes and we sure would want them to have some unbiased writings on Christian Pope liniage.
At the time, the world was trying to wipe any record of Christianity from its midst and not trying to preserve Christian heritage.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
Can you put yourself as Caesar in the first century? Ok, I order you Roman soldiers to go out there and kill all the Christians. I order you to feed them to the lions at the colliseium and crucify any Christian you find. I order you to destroy all Christian buildings and literature to wipe this plague from our empire.
Oh! but before you Roman soildiers go out on your campain to wipe the planet clean of Christianity, if you find a list of Popes from St. Peter on, carefully write it down for safe keeping in our library system. I am sure people 2000 years from now will be interested in reading about the succession of popes and we sure would want them to have some unbiased writings on Christian Pope liniage.
At the time, the world was trying to wipe any record of Christianity from its midst and not trying to preserve Christian heritage.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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Ignatius
Guest
Eusebius of Caesarea would be a good place to start. He was born around 260 and wrote the first modern style history book.
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PhilVaz
Guest
“If art is the organization of materials, the Roman Catholic Church is among the most imposing masterpieces of history. Through nineteen centuries, each heavy with crisis, she has held her faithful together, following them with her ministrations to the ends of the earth, forming their minds, molding their morals, encouraging their fertility, solemnizing their marriages, consoling their bereavements, lifting their momentary lives into eternal drama, harvesting their gifts, surviving every heresy and revolt, and patiently building again every broken support of her power.” (Durant, Story of Civilization: The Age of Faith [volume 4, 1950], page 44)
That takes it back to Peter since these volumes were published in 1950. Also from a prominent “secular” encyclopedia:
“The Roman Catholic Church traces its beginnings to about A.D. 30, when Jesus Christ instructed the apostles, His followers, to spread His teaching about the Kingdom of God.” (World Book Encyclopedia [2000], volume 16 under “Roman Catholic Church,” page 403)
Other quotes on the “visible church” from Evangelical authors:
“The authors of the New Testament did not distinguish between the visible and invisible church. To them, the church that existed in the world was the only church there was…This visible church was the church…we do an injustice to the teaching of the New Testament authors if we impose this conception of an invisible church on the ideas they formulated. These authors were describing the concrete, historical, visible church that had come into existence in their day, and which was rapidly spreading throughout the Mediterranean world. It is this church that they chose to label the ecclesia.” (Craig Van Gelder, The Essence of the Church [Baker, 2000], page 105,106)
And a little clarification from Geisler/Mackenzie:
“Evangelicals also believe that the church is visible, existing now in the world. What is at issue is the claim that the Roman Catholic jurisdiction is the only true manifestation of the body of Christ on earth. This is the question of authority over which Catholics and Protestants disagree…it is true that when the body of Christ began it was all visible since no believers had died and gone to heaven, so of course it was a visible church when Christ founded it. The invisible church only grew as Christians died and went to heaven. Protestants do not deny that there was a visible Christian church on earth that traces back to the apostles who exercised authority over it, including excommunication. What Protestants object to (and Catholics have not proven) is that [the] Roman Catholic jurisdiction is the sole heir to this original visible church that began with the apostles and will continue until Christ comes without the gates of hell destroying it.” (Geisler/MacKenzie, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals [Baker, 1995], page 112, 276-277)
Phil P
That takes it back to Peter since these volumes were published in 1950. Also from a prominent “secular” encyclopedia:
“The Roman Catholic Church traces its beginnings to about A.D. 30, when Jesus Christ instructed the apostles, His followers, to spread His teaching about the Kingdom of God.” (World Book Encyclopedia [2000], volume 16 under “Roman Catholic Church,” page 403)
Other quotes on the “visible church” from Evangelical authors:
“The authors of the New Testament did not distinguish between the visible and invisible church. To them, the church that existed in the world was the only church there was…This visible church was the church…we do an injustice to the teaching of the New Testament authors if we impose this conception of an invisible church on the ideas they formulated. These authors were describing the concrete, historical, visible church that had come into existence in their day, and which was rapidly spreading throughout the Mediterranean world. It is this church that they chose to label the ecclesia.” (Craig Van Gelder, The Essence of the Church [Baker, 2000], page 105,106)
And a little clarification from Geisler/Mackenzie:
“Evangelicals also believe that the church is visible, existing now in the world. What is at issue is the claim that the Roman Catholic jurisdiction is the only true manifestation of the body of Christ on earth. This is the question of authority over which Catholics and Protestants disagree…it is true that when the body of Christ began it was all visible since no believers had died and gone to heaven, so of course it was a visible church when Christ founded it. The invisible church only grew as Christians died and went to heaven. Protestants do not deny that there was a visible Christian church on earth that traces back to the apostles who exercised authority over it, including excommunication. What Protestants object to (and Catholics have not proven) is that [the] Roman Catholic jurisdiction is the sole heir to this original visible church that began with the apostles and will continue until Christ comes without the gates of hell destroying it.” (Geisler/MacKenzie, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals [Baker, 1995], page 112, 276-277)
Phil P
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scylla
Guest
britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9059447
You can search Cephas, or several other things on the site, they will just give you a small bit of the entire contents of the encyclopedia.
bartleby.com/65/pe/Peter-St.html
Here to is a similar site to the Britannica site
You can try World Book, but that is a pay site.
Most encyclopeadias (sp?) have a pretty fair view of history and will support this position.
I will look to see more if I can after I get off of work.
You can search Cephas, or several other things on the site, they will just give you a small bit of the entire contents of the encyclopedia.
bartleby.com/65/pe/Peter-St.html
Here to is a similar site to the Britannica site
You can try World Book, but that is a pay site.
Most encyclopeadias (sp?) have a pretty fair view of history and will support this position.
I will look to see more if I can after I get off of work.
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Lorarose
Guest
This is a catholic site that has compiled early christian writings…I assume that early christians may not be considered “unbiased”
In that case…why would anyone OTHER than the Church have kept a history on it?
newadvent.com/fathers/
In that case…why would anyone OTHER than the Church have kept a history on it?
newadvent.com/fathers/
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Phil_H
Guest
I agree with you. We cannot prove whether Peter was or was not the first pope. The history of early Christianity are vague because of the very fact that the Roman Empire would kill them for their faith in Jesus as the Son of God and their worship of the true God instead of the false gods of Rome.There was a thing on the History Channel last night that said it
The problem is, back in the days of early Christianity, no historians cared except Christian ones. Are the writings of Christians from the first couple centuries good enough for you?
Modern Catholic historians will of course support tha argument. Protestant historians and other religions will not of course, becuase it is an argument for the Church. Unfortunately, everybody’s biased when it comes to religion, even atheists.
However, is it important to prove or disprove this issue? It is by our faith in Christ and our baptism that we are Christian. Christian religion is entirely faith based because if we could prove the existence of God, the fact that Jesus is His Son everyone would believe. God wants our faith and I suspect he sometimes becomes angry with us for trying to prove and disprove who is right and who is wrong.
Peace
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