I need some assistance

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

brickchick

Guest
Hi everyone!

To briefly explain this, I’m a high school senior, who is involved on another message board, mainly to explain Catholicism to the Protestants there. We’ve recently started a discussion on the favorite topic of faith vs. works. One of the protestants posted this: "However, here is the official RCC position on that. I quote from the Council of Trent, Canon 12.

CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed”

In other words. . . if you think you are saved by faith in Christ alone, may you burn in he||. "

So, I have two questions–
  1. Canons can be changed, correct?
  2. Does anyone know of any resources I can use, to help explain the Catholic position? I’ve explained that we believe that you are saved by grace, with faith, and this produces works, but they do like some documentation. (After I say that, they tend to reply by saying that I’m not really Catholic) So some references to the Catechism, or an encyclical or something would be really great! (I have Biblical references, I just need “official” Church documents)
Thank you!
 
Why would that Canon from Trent need to be changed? The theology behind it has not changed. The Catholic Church still teaches this – if you think that simply trusting in Jesus will save you, you are wrong. It’s a great place to start! Don’t get me wong! But you have to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. Don’t just talk the talk, but walk the walk.

Don’t just believe it. Act like you believe it.

I have a brief, but helpful article on my site about this issue. You might want to take a look. Go to:
htpp://www.turrisfortis.com

In the main menu, click on “Topical Articles” and find the faith & works article about mid-way down.

Pax Christi,
Matt
 
Thanks…

and I do get what you are saying about how that canon wouldn’t need to be changed, last time I read it, I guess I wasn’t paying enough attention.

Oh, and another question. Are there any specific places in the CCC about salvation, in regards to faith and works? I’ve looked, but I’m not to knowledgeable with the CCC (that would be my major fault), and I haven’t found anything.
 
there are a couple of sites that have the ccc on line. That would be most helpful for you I am sure. I don’t remember the actual address but it should come up in a search.
God bless you for defending His church!!! I hope more young people follow your lead.
the faith vs works argument is always frustrating for me. James 2 is so clear to me but the opposing side doesn’t see it that way. Keep the faith 🙂
 
40.png
brickchick:
Hi everyone!

To briefly explain this, I’m a high school senior, who is involved on another message board, mainly to explain Catholicism to the Protestants there. We’ve recently started a discussion on the favorite topic of faith vs. works. One of the protestants posted this: "However, here is the official RCC position on that. I quote from the Council of Trent, Canon 12.

CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed”

In other words. . . if you think you are saved by faith in Christ alone, may you burn in he||. "

So, I have two questions–
  1. Canons can be changed, correct?
  2. Does anyone know of any resources I can use, to help explain the Catholic position? I’ve explained that we believe that you are saved by grace, with faith, and this produces works, but they do like some documentation. (After I say that, they tend to reply by saying that I’m not really Catholic) So some references to the Catechism, or an encyclical or something would be really great! (I have Biblical references, I just need “official” Church documents)
Thank you!
Ok, that interpretation is way of base.

Taht canon means that “YOUR CONFIDENCE” is not a sure sign of salvation. Do you know why Protestants always been taught that they should believe that they are already saved? Precisely because of the erroneous doctrine of Martin Luther (at least his doctrine is what trigger it). They think that if they have confidence that they are saved, that is a sign that they are indeed save. If you’re not confidence enough, then maybe you’re not save. (ever heard of it? it’s called Once Saved Always Saved)

Human could decieve themselves. You might fool yourselves into thinking that you’re the handsomest person in the world. It’s possible and it’s can be easy. So, the same with salvation. It’s something that you must work out (Phil 2:12)

One may believe that God will save him or her. But one can NOT have assurance in it. Because we sometime have the tendency to fool ourselves. God will always keep his promise to be with us. It is us who may not be loyal, even if we think that we are (IE: John Kerry).

Thus we need to put our trust in God and not use the false confidence as a guarantee or assurance. That will be the attitude of the Pharisee. By trusting God and realizing that we might fail but God will saty true, we are really surrendering ourselves to God instead of pompously proclaiming that “nothing ain’t gonna happen to me, I’M SAVED!”
 
From: kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/search.cfm

35 Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

147 The Old Testament is rich in witnesses to this faith. The Letter to the Hebrews proclaims its eulogy of the exemplary faith of the ancestors who “received divine approval”. 10 Yet “God had foreseen something better for us”: the grace of believing in his Son Jesus, “the pioneer and perfecter of our faith”. 11

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of… intellect and will to God who reveals”, 26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

158 “Faith seeks understanding”: 33 it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens “the eyes of your hearts” 34 to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the centre of the revealed mystery. “The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” 35 In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.” 36

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. 42 “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”]

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” 171 Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for “without a Creator the creature vanishes.” 172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace. 173

357 Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ 8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. 9

617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ’s sacrifice as “the source of eternal salvation” 449 and teaches that “his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us.” 450 And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: “Hail, O Cross, our only hope.” 451

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed”
In other words. . . if you think you are saved by faith in Christ alone, may you burn in he||. "
However, the canons of the council say “let him be anathema” which is different than may he burn in hell. To be anathematized by the church is a formal sanction (that is actually no longer exercised, I believe). It was not a declaration of somebody’s damnation. When the council declared somebody to be anathema for holding a heretical view (and other posters here have shown how the *once saved always saved * doctrine is a heresy) they said that whoever held such a view could be sanctioned by the church. It was not even an automatic sanction, but one that would have to go through a court procedure of some sort.
 
From the CCC at: kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/search.cfm

679 …By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love. 588

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. 592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul-a destiny which can be different for some and for others. 593

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. 80 But “faith apart from works is dead”: 81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

Brick, don’t get so very caught up in the “faith vs. works” false dichotomy. It makes no more sense than “mercy vs. salvation”.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
Hey Brickchick!
The best I have read is by Karl Keating! I am reading “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” and it’s very good if you haven’t read it.
Good luck!
 
Here is an illustration that I once read that made some sense to me of this “once saved, always saved” argument. Let’s make up a ficticious person that subscribed to this idea. He was “born again” and said the sinners prayer, etc. and was assured of his salvation as a teenager. After 30 years of living the life, reading the bible, knowing he was saved and assured of his salvation, tragedy struck. Due to some risky business ventures, bad luck struck him and it threw him from a comfortable living into thousands and thousands of dollars in debt. Coming home from finding all of this out, he finds out his wife has been having and affair and intends on leaving him for a younger man. In a rage of anger he kills her and then kills himself. (Remember this is ficticious) Question: Is he still saved? He comitted a grievous sin in doing away with his wife and then himself, leaving this world unrepentant. If he is saved, how can that be? If he is not saved, for 30 years he thought he was and was assured of it in his own mind. I have not been able to hear a reasonable (or consistent) argument from any of my protestant friends.

JJ
 
40.png
brickchick:
Hi everyone!

To briefly explain this, I’m a high school senior, who is involved on another message board, mainly to explain Catholicism to the Protestants there. We’ve recently started a discussion on the favorite topic of faith vs. works. One of the protestants posted this: "However, here is the official RCC position on that. I quote from the Council of Trent, Canon 12.

CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed”

In other words. . . if you think you are saved by faith in Christ alone, may you burn in he||. "

So, I have two questions–
  1. Canons can be changed, correct?
  2. Does anyone know of any resources I can use, to help explain the Catholic position? I’ve explained that we believe that you are saved by grace, with faith, and this produces works, but they do like some documentation. (After I say that, they tend to reply by saying that I’m not really Catholic) So some references to the Catechism, or an encyclical or something would be really great! (I have Biblical references, I just need “official” Church documents)
Thank you!
I think the proper term is anathema which means excomunicated,
 
Richard Lamb:
I think the proper term is anathema which means excomunicated,
anathema sit, let him be anathema

An anathema is a specific type of excommunication. It is done with pomp and meant to strike fear so as to convert the heretic/schismatic/whoeever.

Now disciplinary canons with an anathema no longer incir excommunication, buyt the canons of Trent on Justification are Dogma and thus irreformable. Though an anathema no longer is incurrered, heresy does incur the penalty of latae sentatiae excommunication

I should add that heresy is a mortal sin
 
I have not been able to hear a reasonable (or consistent) argument from any of my protestant friends.

JJ Nor have I over the years. The sad thing is the protestant counterpart thinks it is perfectly reasonable to say, “Oh, then he wasn’t really saved in the first place”. Then you ask, “well suppose he had been hit by a car two weeks before all the calmity hit. Does he go to heaven?” Well at that point, we’re right where we started. Argh! But, Lord willing, we can keep trying.
 
brickchick

The “Once Saved, Always Saved” heresy was discussed recently on this board. I will see if I can find it for you …
 
dr. ludwig ott’s book fundamentals of catholic dogma will answer ur questions about church documents… and also scott hanh’s biblical study on the book of romans "romanism in romans " is also excellent. ott’s book is good for any subject in theology… i also dont understand why that canon in Trent would need to be changed???
 
First keep in mind the canons of Trent are written in technical language. Most Protestants, and many Catholics, won’t be able to fully understand them. Often they are related to a specific historical situation or theological issue. Trent on justification affirms that initial justification is purely by grace. This surprises many Protestants. But it does condemn the faith alone idea of Luther. You need to read the decree and all the canons. Don’t let someone cite you a canon out of context which they probably don’t understand. Use this as an opportunity to get the whole picture. And use the CCC which has a good section on justification.
 
The CCC is awesome but you don’t even need it on this one, especially since you are probably dealing with a sola scriptura type Christian. The Bible is chock full of references regarding faith and works. The bottom line is that you cannot seperate the two, which is what the Protestant vehemently wants to do. Scripture is so clear on this matter I cannot even believe sane people would try to refute it. Here are some verses for you:

Mt 7:21- not lord lord, but he who does the will of my father
Mt 19:16-17- to have life, keep the commandments
Jn 14:21- he who keeps my commandments loves me
Rom 2:2-8- eternal life by perseverance in good works
Gal 5:4-6- nothing counts but faith working through love
Eph 2:8-10- we are created in Christ Jesus for good works
Phil 2:12-13- work out you salvation with fear and trembling
Jam 2:14-24- a man is justified by works & not faith alone!!!
Rom 2:5-8- God will repay each man according to his works
2Cor 5:10 recompense accord to what did in body
2Cor 11:15 their end will correspond to their deeds
1 Pet 1:17 God judges impartially according to one’s works
Rev 20:12-13 dfead judged according to their deeds
Col 3:24-25 will receive due payment for whatever you do

Now…let them produce one verse stating that works is not neccessary for salvation. 😉
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top