I need some updating here: what all changed after V2?

[Zhenia]

I know I’m going to sound very sheltered, and maybe I am! But I grew up Jewish, with half my family traditional Catholics who left the Church in 1970 due to “the changes” of V2 (but they stayed home and prayed the Rosary, said novenas, etc)

I became a Catholic in the late 1970s through a local parish, which I left a few weeks later when I discovered the existence of a Traditional Latin Mass being said in a local hotel ballroom. I stayed there, and even though I drifted away from the Church over the years, when I did return I always returned to the traditional wing of the Church only.

Hence, I am very much in the dark as to what has changed since V2. The Mass changed, I obviously know about that! And I knew they changed the rule about not eating meat on Fridays. But I only found out a few minutes ago on this forum that cremation is now allowed by the post-V2 church?!? I also recently learned that Jan 1st is not called the Feast of the Circumcision anymore, but something else?

I realize there have probably been a LOT of changes, but can someone fill me on the major ones apart from the ones I mentioned? I really feel when I open my mouth that I am referring to an entirely different church than what exists today.

 

[Corki]

Hence, I am very much in the dark as to what has changed since V2. The Mass changed, I obviously know about that! And I knew they changed the rule about not eating meat on Fridays. But I only found out a few minutes ago on this forum that cremation is now allowed by the post-V2 church?!? I also recently learned that Jan 1st is not called the Feast of the Circumcision anymore, but something else?

Are you looking for what changed due to Vatican II or just what has changed since 1968?

For example, the changes in the Mass were directed by Vatican II. But the changes in the fasting an abstinence requirements have nothing to do with VII. The rules changed many times during the 20th century before and after VII. Creamation also had nothing to do with VII, it was changed with the new canon law (1983) I believe.

 

[TrueLight]

I know I’m going to sound very sheltered, and maybe I am! But I grew up Jewish, with half my family traditional Catholics who left the Church in 1970 due to “the changes” of V2 (but they stayed home and prayed the Rosary, said novenas, etc)

I became a Catholic in the late 1970s through a local parish, which I left a few weeks later when I discovered the existence of a Traditional Latin Mass being said in a local hotel ballroom. I stayed there, and even though I drifted away from the Church over the years, when I did return I always returned to the traditional wing of the Church only.

Hence, I am very much in the dark as to what has changed since V2. The Mass changed, I obviously know about that! And I knew they changed the rule about not eating meat on Fridays. But I only found out a few minutes ago on this forum that cremation is now allowed by the post-V2 church?!? I also recently learned that Jan 1st is not called the Feast of the Circumcision anymore, but something else?

I realize there have probably been a LOT of changes, but can someone fill me on the major ones apart from the ones I mentioned? I really feel when I open my mouth that I am referring to an entirely different church than what exists today.

I would recommend reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd edition for starters.

 

[Cider]

A new Code of Canon Law in the 1980s, a new Catechism in the 1990s which references back to Vatican II documents most of the time.

A new mass, in the vernacular with the priest facing the people
female altar servers
the option of substituting another penance for not eating meat on Fridays outside of Lent
reduction in Eucharistic fasting requirement to one hour
Laity distributing the Body and Blood of Christ
The USCCB request and granted the right of distributing communion in the hand while the communicant stands
almost universal removal of the altar rail from churches
new liturgical calendar including moving Holy days to Sundays if they fall on a week day
removal of Ember Days and Rogation days from the calendar
new wording of baptism, confirmation and ordination rites
the New American Bible translation is now the official mass translation
RCIA to bring people into the Church, usually at the Easter Vigil
more roles for the laity in parish
it’s now fine for Catholics to marry even the unbaptized
reduction in emphasis on converting people to the Catholic Church and the stressing of non Catholic Christians as separated brethren with no need for conversion.
basically the end of Extra Ecclesiam null sales

That is just off the top of my head, there is more.

I forgot these

the moving of the altar and often the tabernacle

 

[Corki]

I would recommend reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd edition for starters.

As great as the Catechism is, it is a book that is more about the things that stayed the same, rather than those that changed.

 

[Cider]

As great as the Catechism is, it is a book that is more about the things that stayed the same, rather than those that changed.

Actually I think reading the new Catechism along with the sources it cites, which are overwhelmingly to Vatican II documents and comparing them to Trents could be really helpful.

 

[Corki]

Actually I think reading the new Catechism along with the sources it cites, which are overwhelmingly to Vatican II documents and comparing them to Trents could be really helpful.

You must have a different version than I have. Most of the footnotes in my edition are to Scripture passages and the writings of the ECFs. The OPs original examples were disciplines, not doctrinal teaching. The CCC doesn’t cover disciplines.

I wasn’t going to do this but now you’ve tempted me.

A new Code of Canon Law in the 1980s, a new Catechism in the 1990s which references back to Vatican II documents most of the time.

A well footnoted CCC which includes VII documents, Scripture and ECFs as sources. The last canon law revision was 1917.

A new mass, in the vernacular with the priest facing the people

A new Missal that allows the Mass to be said in Latin or in the vernacular. The priest can face liturgicaly east or can face the congregation at his option.

female altar servers

in some dioceses, if the priest wants to use them.

the option of substituting another penance for not eating meat on Fridays outside of Lent

yes.

reduction in Eucharistic fasting requirement to one hour

continuing the trend that was begun well before VII that reduced the Communion fast to three hours.

Laity distributing the Body and Blood of Christ

when there is an extraordinary need and in addition to the available ordinary (ordained) ministers

The USCCB request and granted the right of distributing communion in the hand while the communicant stands

CITH was granted by indult with a normative preference for Communion on the tongue. Communion can be standing or kneeling depending on the church architecture, the wishes of the priest and of the communicant

almost universal removal of the altar rail from churches

sadly true

new liturgical calendar including moving Holy days to Sundays if they fall on a week day
removal of Ember Days and Rogation days from the calendar

Completely revised liturgical calendar, including these changes as well as a variable cycle of readings (three year for Sunday, two year for daily), new feast days, Ordinary time instead of Sundays after Epiphany and after Pentecost.

new wording of baptism, confirmation and ordination rites

yes

the New American Bible translation is now the official mass translation

only in the US and only a modified version of the NAB

RCIA to bring people into the Church, usually at the Easter Vigil

as well as new programs to bring unconfirmed Catholics into full initiation, programs for unbaptized older children and more education programs for adults in the parish

more roles for the laity in parish

yes

it’s now fine for Catholics to marry even the unbaptized

it’s not “fine”. it is not permitted without dispensation

reduction in emphasis on converting people to the Catholic Church and the stressing of non Catholic Christians as separated brethren with no need for conversion.

“no further need for conversion” only applies to the Orthodox and the Jewish people.

basically the end of Extra Ecclesiam null sales

a development in how it is applied in the modern world

the moving of the altar and often the tabernacle

which had nothing to do with VII but was part of the move to create more modern “worship spaces”.

 

[Zhenia]

A new Code of Canon Law in the 1980s, a new Catechism in the 1990s which references back to Vatican II documents most of the time.

A new mass, in the vernacular with the priest facing the people
female altar servers
the option of substituting another penance for not eating meat on Fridays outside of Lent
reduction in Eucharistic fasting requirement to one hour
Laity distributing the Body and Blood of Christ
The USCCB request and granted the right of distributing communion in the hand while the communicant stands
almost universal removal of the altar rail from churches
new liturgical calendar including moving Holy days to Sundays if they fall on a week day
removal of Ember Days and Rogation days from the calendar
new wording of baptism, confirmation and ordination rites
the New American Bible translation is now the official mass translation
RCIA to bring people into the Church, usually at the Easter Vigil
more roles for the laity in parish
it’s now fine for Catholics to marry even the unbaptized
reduction in emphasis on converting people to the Catholic Church and the stressing of non Catholic Christians as separated brethren with no need for conversion.
basically the end of Extra Ecclesiam null sales

That is just off the top of my head, there is more.

I forgot these

the moving of the altar and often the tabernacle

HOLY cow. I had no idea about most of that.

And Catholics can now marry even UNbaptized people?!

All I know is: No meat on Fridays, fasting before Holy Communion from midnight; ember and rogation days; Tridentine Mass…and a lot more.

I’m kind of glad I was sheltered all this time!

 

[Black_Knight]

A new Code of Canon Law in the 1980s, a new Catechism in the 1990s which references back to Vatican II documents most of the time.

A new mass, in the vernacular with the priest facing the people

female altar servers
the option of substituting another penance for not eating meat on Fridays outside of Lent
reduction in Eucharistic fasting requirement to one hour
Laity distributing the Body and Blood of Christ
The USCCB request and granted the right of distributing communion in the hand while the communicant stands
almost universal removal of the altar rail from churches
new liturgical calendar including moving Holy days to Sundays if they fall on a week day
removal of Ember Days and Rogation days from the calendar
new wording of baptism, confirmation and ordination rites
the New American Bible translation is now the official mass translation
RCIA to bring people into the Church, usually at the Easter Vigil
more roles for the laity in parishAs one who grew up pre Vatican II I’d point out that none of that is wrong.

it’s now fine for Catholics to marry even the unbaptized

When was it ever taught that one could not? IIRC it required a dispensation…and still does.

reduction in emphasis on converting people to the Catholic Church and the stressing of non Catholic Christians as separated brethren with no need for conversion.

Not so at all. You have misrepresented the teachings of the church. That’s not right.

basically the end of Extra Ecclesiam null sales

Again, you misrepresent the teaching of the church the same way that anti-Catholic Protestants seek to. Shame on you!

I forgot these

the moving of the altar and often the tabernacle

I have yet to have a problem locating the tabernacle in any Catholic Church I enter and in most cases it is in a very prominent place and conducive to adoration.

Don’t try to mislead people like this.

 

[Zhenia]

Its true that a dispensation was required to marry an unbaptized person (its called disparity of cult), but I would think it would have been MUCH harder to get pre-V2…ditto for annulments.

A great uncle of mine married a protestant before V2, and he said they had to get married in the rectory, not the church…they were not allowed a Nuptial Mass. Also, his wife had to sign an agreement that all the children would be raised Catholic. Is that still the case too?

 

[Cider]

As one who grew up pre Vatican II I’d point out that none of that is wrong.

You have misrepresented the teachings of the church. That’s not right.
Again, you misrepresent the teaching of the church the same way that anti-Catholic Protestants seek to. Shame on you!

Don’t try to mislead people like this.

This is the last post I’m going to make on this thread, and all I’m going to say is that I never said in my post that any of it was wrong, nor that all of it was official teaching. Regardless of that, this is what has happened in many if not most parishes in the US. I can’t comment on anywhere else.

 

[Corki]

Its true that a dispensation was required to marry an unbaptized person (its called disparity of cult), but I would think it would have been MUCH harder to get pre-V2…ditto for annulments.

A great uncle of mine married a protestant before V2, and he said they had to get married in the rectory, not the church…they were not allowed a Nuptial Mass. Also, his wife had to sign an agreement that all the children would be raised Catholic. Is that still the case too?

Sorry, but if you have been so out of touch with the Church, what are you using to base your conclusion that it was much harder then?

A mixed marriage couple can have a Mass but it is often discouraged due to the possible large amounts of wedding guests that can’t receive Communion.

Now the agreement is signed by the Catholic, not the non-Catholic but they still have to promise to raise the children Catholic.

 

[Zhenia]

Sorry, but if you have been so out of touch with the Church, what are you using to base your conclusion that it was much harder then?

A mixed marriage couple can have a Mass but it is often discouraged due to the possible large amounts of wedding guests that can’t receive Communion.

Now the agreement is signed by the Catholic, not the non-Catholic but they still have to promise to raise the children Catholic.

I’m basing my statement on what relatives who lived before V2 have told me about it.

And I wouldn’t say I have been “out of touch with the Church”, but rather, I’ve been out of touch with the modern form of it.

 

[lizaanne]

Zhenia - how old are you, if I may ask? I think that may help us gain some context.

~Liza

 

[Zhenia]

Zhenia - how old are you, if I may ask? I think that may help us gain some context.

~Liza

I’m 52. People sometimes tell me, “But you’re not old enough to remember the days before V2!” They forget I have an unusual situation, in that I am a convert, with half my family traditional Catholics who left the Church in 1970 due to the changes, and who spoke about it to me so much that it led my curiosity to get the better of me, so much so that I converted to the Catholic Faith in 1978 as a teenager (I was baptized at my local parish, and studied under a very traditional priest who stayed only out of obedience)…but I left soon after once I found a Tridentine Mass being held locally (unapproved, which they all were back then).

So really almost all my firsthand experience is with traditional, pre-V2 Catholicism, as it was preserved AFTER V2. I’m in a similar situation as, say, a person who grew up within the SSPX, attending their schools, their Masses, etc with very little if any exposure to the modern church. I don’t even have Catholic relatives that are novus ordo; most of them left the Church in 1970 due to the changes, and a few of the ones who didn’t leave simply switched to a Traditional RC chapel once they found one.

 

[Paxvobis]

I know I’m going to sound very sheltered, and maybe I am! But I grew up Jewish, with half my family traditional Catholics who left the Church in 1970 due to “the changes” of V2 (but they stayed home and prayed the Rosary, said novenas, etc)

I became a Catholic in the late 1970s through a local parish, which I left a few weeks later when I discovered the existence of a Traditional Latin Mass being said in a local hotel ballroom. I stayed there, and even though I drifted away from the Church over the years, when I did return I always returned to the traditional wing of the Church only.

Hence, I am very much in the dark as to what has changed since V2. The Mass changed, I obviously know about that! And I knew they changed the rule about not eating meat on Fridays. But I only found out a few minutes ago on this forum that cremation is now allowed by the post-V2 church?!? I also recently learned that Jan 1st is not called the Feast of the Circumcision anymore, but something else?

I realize there have probably been a LOT of changes, but can someone fill me on the major ones apart from the ones I mentioned? I really feel when I open my mouth that I am referring to an entirely different church than what exists today.

Many of the changes associated with Vatican II were not the result of Vatican II but of decisions/events in the years between 1965 and 1983.

The Mass changed, as you know. The NO can be said in Latin, but rarely is. The priest faces the people. From 1965-69 there was an TLM Mass in English without Psalm 42 and the Last Gospel before they implemented the NO.

Most women stopped veiling at Mass in the early 1970s (although they are still required to do so).

Most people stopped abstaining from meat on Fridays and fasting throughout Lent. In the United States, the mandatory days of fast/abstinence are fast/abstain on Ash Wednesday & Good Friday and abstain on the Fridays of Lent. However, we are obliged under pain of grave sin to do a penance on each Friday (except Solemnities) which is traditionally satisfied by abstinence from meat.

Female Altar Servers are now allowed.

There’s no more ‘High Mass’ or ‘Low Mass.’ Incense, the presence of a deacon, the number of altar servers, the number of candles, the presence of a choir is less ridged. For instance, you can have a Mass with a deacon and no choir, or a Mass with a choir and incense but without a deacon, et cetera.

Communion is received mostly in the hand. It can be received on the tongue if one chooses to do so. Both species of Holy Communion are distributed in many parishes.

The Sunday Obligation can be fulfilled on Saturday night.

The Liturgical Year was re-vamped:

• Time after Epiphany, Septuagesima and Time after Pentecost became ‘Ordinary Time’
• The Feast of the Circumcision was re-named the Solemnity of Mary: the Mother of God.
• Epiphany was moved from January 6 to the Sunday after January 1.
• The Baptism of our Lord was made a Feast and moved from January 13 to the Sunday after Epiphany
• Passion Week was done away with.
• The Octave of Pentecost was done away with.
• The Penitential Vigils such as those of Christmas, Pentecost, St. John the Baptist, Assumption, et cetera were done away with.
• The Feast of the Kingship of our Lord has moved from the Last Sunday in October to the Sunday before the beginning of Advent.

Those who divorce and re-marry are no longer excommunicated.

The subdeaconate and minor orders (exorcist, acolyte) have been done away with.

Although allowed, the use of Incense & Latin have mostly fallen by the wayside. In many Churches there are rock band and guitar Masses.

Most people arrive to Mass on time. No leaving at the sermon for a cigarette break or coming in at the Offertory.

The Introit is usually replaced by a ‘Gathering Song’ and the Communion is usually replaced by a ‘Communion Song.’

Communion is sometimes distributed by laypersons. The readings are always done by laypersons except for the Gospel.

I could go on longer, but these are the major things that people are referring too when they talk about the ‘Vatican II Changes.’ Most of these had nothing to do with Vatican II itself, whose main goal was how to communicate the truths of the faith to the modern world. Contrary to any SSPX propaganda, those at Vatican II would have been disappointed with the fact that Mass attendance has fallen from 80% to 25%. They wouldn’t have been happy with heretical priests & nuns, widespread use of contraception among the laity, et cetera.

 

[Dan_Daly]

But I only found out a few minutes ago on this forum that cremation is now allowed by the post-V2 church?!?

?? I’m curious about this one.

Found this:

The Church permits cremation, provided that it does not demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body.

The statement does not logically demand that cremation is ever permitted- as it’s possible that it would always demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body. This may seem a very technical reading of the wording (and it is) but given the entire deposit of faith we have, it is quite reasonable to think it may also be the correct one.

 

[TrueLight]

?? I’m curious about this one.

Found this:

The statement does not logically demand that cremation is ever permitted- as it’s possible that it would always demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body. This may seem a very technical reading of the wording (and it is) but given the entire deposit of faith we have, it is quite reasonable to think it may also be the correct one.

I don’t think cremation implies a denial in the resurrection. God can resurrect ash into a whole body the same way he can resurrect a drowned body which has been eaten by more than one shark, or that has been completely burned to ashes in a plane crash.

 

[Zhenia]

Many of the changes associated with Vatican II were not the result of Vatican II but of decisions/events in the years between 1965 and 1983.

The Mass changed, as you know. The NO can be said in Latin, but rarely is. The priest faces the people. From 1965-69 there was an TLM Mass in English without Psalm 42 and the Last Gospel before they implemented the NO.

Most women stopped veiling at Mass in the early 1970s (although they are still required to do so).

Most people stopped abstaining from meat on Fridays and fasting throughout Lent. In the United States, the mandatory days of fast/abstinence are fast/abstain on Ash Wednesday & Good Friday and abstain on the Fridays of Lent. However, we are obliged under pain of grave sin to do a penance on each Friday (except Solemnities) which is traditionally satisfied by abstinence from meat.

Female Altar Servers are now allowed.

There’s no more ‘High Mass’ or ‘Low Mass.’ Incense, the presence of a deacon, the number of altar servers, the number of candles, the presence of a choir is less ridged. For instance, you can have a Mass with a deacon and no choir, or a Mass with a choir and incense but without a deacon, et cetera.

Communion is received mostly in the hand. It can be received on the tongue if one chooses to do so. Both species of Holy Communion are distributed in many parishes.

The Sunday Obligation can be fulfilled on Saturday night.

The Liturgical Year was re-vamped:

• Time after Epiphany, Septuagesima and Time after Pentecost became ‘Ordinary Time’
• The Feast of the Circumcision was re-named the Solemnity of Mary: the Mother of God.
• Epiphany was moved from January 6 to the Sunday after January 1.
• The Baptism of our Lord was made a Feast and moved from January 13 to the Sunday after Epiphany
• Passion Week was done away with.
• The Octave of Pentecost was done away with.
• The Penitential Vigils such as those of Christmas, Pentecost, St. John the Baptist, Assumption, et cetera were done away with.
• The Feast of the Kingship of our Lord has moved from the Last Sunday in October to the Sunday before the beginning of Advent.

Those who divorce and re-marry are no longer excommunicated.

The subdeaconate and minor orders (exorcist, acolyte) have been done away with.

Although allowed, the use of Incense & Latin have mostly fallen by the wayside. In many Churches there are rock band and guitar Masses.

Most people arrive to Mass on time. No leaving at the sermon for a cigarette break or coming in at the Offertory.

The Introit is usually replaced by a ‘Gathering Song’ and the Communion is usually replaced by a ‘Communion Song.’

Communion is sometimes distributed by laypersons. The readings are always done by laypersons except for the Gospel.

I could go on longer, but these are the major things that people are referring too when they talk about the ‘Vatican II Changes.’ Most of these had nothing to do with Vatican II itself, whose main goal was how to communicate the truths of the faith to the modern world. Contrary to any SSPX propaganda, those at Vatican II would have been disappointed with the fact that Mass attendance has fallen from 80% to 25%. They wouldn’t have been happy with heretical priests & nuns, widespread use of contraception among the laity, et cetera.

Wow. Its worse than even I thought. Sheesh. You know, in reading about the Eastern Orthodox churches, I noticed that they kept all of the things the (modern) RCC did away with (well, the things they had in common with the Catholic Church, that is, which is quite a bit.)

Until I decided to ask here, in my mind when I spoke of “the changes” (of V2 or post-V2), I meant the Mass and the “no meat on Friday” requirement.

They even got rid of the Vigil of Christmas (no meat on Christmas Eve)?! You know, in the Southern Italian tradition, which goes back many centuries and was always highly reverenced in my mom’s family, it was traditional to have The Feast of the Seven Fishes on Christmas Eve, when meat could not be eaten. Its become a very famous Sicilian tradition, and it was founded on a rule of the Church which the modern church no longer holds to.

 

[lewevanhoop]

This isn’t exactly true. They are considered to be in a persistent state of mortal sin and thus unless in danger of death are not to receive the sacraments.