I need to show another parish that my marriage is valid/sacramental

[anp1215]

I KNOW that it is, but it seems like so many Catholics have huge misunderstandings about marriage between Protestants.

OK, backstory first.

My husband was baptized as a Baptist. I was not baptized as a child at all. We got married in our Protestant church. Neither of us had ever been married before. Valid marriage. A year later, I got baptized in the same church. Sacramental marriage.

Two years after that, I converted to the Catholic Church, November 20, 2011. I even had to explain to my priest beforehand, that nothing needed to be done regarding my marriage, after he said I needed a convalidation. I guess he looked into it, because the next time I saw him he told me, no, you do not need to have a convalidation (which I already knew).

OK.

So my boss/friend asked me to be godmother to his daughter. He actually initially thought he couldn’t ask me because I wasn’t “married in the Church.” Then I explained to him, no I am married in the Church because I wasn’t Catholic when I got married and neither was my husband (my husband still isn’t Catholic).

So he called the parish office today to ask about the baby’s baptism and they told him (I was expecting this) no, her marriage isn’t valid, she wasn’t married in the Catholic Church, Canon Law says it, blah blah.

So he called me and asked me if I could please “look this up” (in Canon Law) and get back to him so that he can show them. I told him that they are wrong, simple as that, and that I would not have been able to get Confirmed, receive First Eucharist, if I was living in sin/invalid marriage! I also told him maybe I can get the priest who confirmed me to email the other priest.

Anyway, can someone please tell the parts in Canon Law I need to print out?

And sorry if I seem frustrated, but I do get really frustrated dealing with this repeatedly.

 

[1ke]

Canon law applies to Catholics. Therefore, you will not find anything in canon law about non-Catholic marriages.

What canon law does say is that ecclesial law applies to marriage if at least one party is Catholic (Canon 1059). Therefore it did not apply to you, as neither of you was Catholic.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3V.HTM

Honstly, I am embarrassed that anyone in my former (arch)diocese would be that uninformed. Sigh.

I can also suggest referring them to the Archdiocesan website’s own Q&A on marriage/nullity particularly items #1 and #16:

archgh.org/default/Tribunal/2-Frequently%20Asked%20Questions-Web.doc

As a last ditch effort, contact the Tribunal office and ask them to type up a memo on the subject because clearly they aren’t educating their parish staff well enough if you have now encountered this TWICE.

 

[dans0622]

… Anyway, can someone please tell the parts in Canon Law I need to print out? …

Hello,

It seems to me that the direct proof would be your sacramental records as they are recorded at the parish through which you entered the Church. If you request a copy of your baptismal certificate, it should have your marriage noted. That being said, I’ve seen plenty of baptismal certificates that lacked proper notations…

As far as the Code goes, you can look at cc. 1055.2, 1057.1, 1059, & 1117.

Canon 1057.1 is the foundational canon and the others make it clear that you did not have to observe canon law (i.e., “get married in the Church”) since you and your husband were not Catholic at the time. Canon 1057.1 says that marriage is brought into being by the “legitimately manifested” consent of the parties. In other words, the couple has to make their desire to marry each other known in a way that is in accord with whatever law by which they were bound. In your case, that just means getting the marriage license and saying whatever needs to be said and then having the license signed by anyone with the authority to witness marriages in that state.

Dan

 

[anp1215]

Canon law applies to Catholics. Therefore, you will not find anything in canon law about non-Catholic marriages.

What canon law does say is that ecclesial law applies to marriage if at least one party is Catholic (Canon 1059). Therefore it did not apply to you, as neither of you was Catholic.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3V.HTM

Honstly, I am embarrassed that anyone in my former (arch)diocese would be that uninformed. Sigh.

I can also suggest referring them to the Archdiocesan website’s own Q&A on marriage/nullity particularly items #1 and #16:

archgh.org/default/Tribunal/2-Frequently%20Asked%20Questions-Web.doc

As a last ditch effort, contact the Tribunal office and ask them to type up a memo on the subject because clearly they aren’t educating their parish staff well enough if you have now encountered this TWICE.

Thanks for the info. I am going to print that Q and A out and highlight the pertinent info. in #s 1, 16, and also 43. Hopefully they will relent if he reads them this. If not, I’m going to go talk to the priest who received me and ask him to email the other church.

 

[anp1215]

Hello,

It seems to me that the direct proof would be your sacramental records as they are recorded at the parish through which you entered the Church. If you request a copy of your baptismal certificate, it should have your marriage noted. That being said, I’ve seen plenty of baptismal certificates that lacked proper notations…

As far as the Code goes, you can look at cc. 1055.2, 1057.1, 1059, & 1117.

Canon 1057.1 is the foundational canon and the others make it clear that you did not have to observe canon law (i.e., “get married in the Church”) since you and your husband were not Catholic at the time. Canon 1057.1 says that marriage is brought into being by the “legitimately manifested” consent of the parties. In other words, the couple has to make their desire to marry each other known in a way that is in accord with whatever law by which they were bound. In your case, that just means getting the marriage license and saying whatever needs to be said and then having the license signed by anyone with the authority to witness marriages in that state.

Dan

Thanks, but I don’t think I have a baptismal record since I wasn’t baptized in the Catholic Church. I just have my record that shows I made a profession of faith, received Confirmation and First Eucharist and it shows on there that I was baptized at .

Thank you.

 

[achmafooma]

I can imagine how frustrated you must be with this. My wife and I were both Baptized and, later, married as members of the United Methodist Church. We were Confirmed as Catholics years later.

Like you, because we were married as Baptized Protestants (who had never been Catholic), no convalidation was necessary. Our marriage as two Protestants with no previous marriages was perfectly valid. There shouldn’t be any question on this matter.

Your Sacramental record should be recorded with the Parish where you were welcomed into the Catholic Church. That record should include the fact that you were Sacramentally married as Protestants before entering into full communion. That should be enough.

1ke has some great advice.

I’m really surprised this is an issue. I am still registered at the same Parish where I was Confirmed, and they have no question about my marriage’s validity and would certify by letter that I am a Catholic in good standing if I were asked to stand as a godparent or sponsor in another Parish.

God bless you. I hope this all gets straightened out soon.

 

[FrDavid96]

I KNOW that it is, but it seems like so many Catholics have huge misunderstandings about marriage between Protestants.

OK, backstory first.

My husband was baptized as a Baptist. I was not baptized as a child at all. We got married in our Protestant church. Neither of us had ever been married before. Valid marriage. A year later, I got baptized in the same church. Sacramental marriage.

Two years after that, I converted to the Catholic Church, November 20, 2011. I even had to explain to my priest beforehand, that nothing needed to be done regarding my marriage, after he said I needed a convalidation. I guess he looked into it, because the next time I saw him he told me, no, you do not need to have a convalidation (which I already knew).

OK.

So my boss/friend asked me to be godmother to his daughter. He actually initially thought he couldn’t ask me because I wasn’t “married in the Church.” Then I explained to him, no I am married in the Church because I wasn’t Catholic when I got married and neither was my husband (my husband still isn’t Catholic).

So he called the parish office today to ask about the baby’s baptism and they told him (I was expecting this) no, her marriage isn’t valid, she wasn’t married in the Catholic Church, Canon Law says it, blah blah.

So he called me and asked me if I could please “look this up” (in Canon Law) and get back to him so that he can show them. I told him that they are wrong, simple as that, and that I would not have been able to get Confirmed, receive First Eucharist, if I was living in sin/invalid marriage! I also told him maybe I can get the priest who confirmed me to email the other priest.

Anyway, can someone please tell the parts in Canon Law I need to print out?

And sorry if I seem frustrated, but I do get really frustrated dealing with this repeatedly.

There might be a better way to go about this rather than try quoting canon law. The problem is that what you’re looking for is not exactly and explicitly mentioned in the canons–in other words, canon law does not say directly that “such a marriage is valid” instead that’s a conclusion which is drawn from what the law says. Someone who already does not know that your marriage is a valid one won’t understand what the canons are saying.

Does the priest at your home parish understand that your marriage is valid? I’ve tried reading through your post, but it’s not exactly clear to me who does and does-not understand. Is the priest who received you into the Church still your pastor?

There is a reason why I’m asking all this, so bear with me…

Many parish offices keep a supply of some simple little 3 X 5 forms called “Sponsor Certificates.” The purpose of these is that the home pastor certifies that you are qualified to be a sponsor for Baptism (or Confirmation). Rather than try to answer individual questions (like is your marriage valid?) the whole purpose of these is to make things simple. Chances are that your own priest has these in his desk. If not, he probably can do one on the computer and print it out in a few minutes. This sort of thing is very routine and priests do it all the time. All you need to do is approach your own pastor and request that he issue you a sponsor certificate–that’s all you have to say (other than “for whom”). He will know exactly what to do.

When the pastor of the place of baptism gets that sponsor certificate from your home pastor, that should settle the matter.

 

[anp1215]

I can imagine how frustrated you must be with this. My wife and I were both Baptized and, later, married as members of the United Methodist Church. We were Confirmed as Catholics years later.

Like you, because we were married as Baptized Protestants (who had never been Catholic), no convalidation was necessary. Our marriage as two Protestants with no previous marriages was perfectly valid. There shouldn’t be any question on this matter.

Your Sacramental record should be recorded with the Parish where you were welcomed into the Catholic Church. That record should include the fact that you were Sacramentally married as Protestants before entering into full communion. That should be enough.

1ke has some great advice.

I’m really surprised this is an issue. I am still registered at the same Parish where I was Confirmed, and they have no question about my marriage’s validity and would certify by letter that I am a Catholic in good standing if I were asked to stand as a godparent or sponsor in another Parish.

God bless you. I hope this all gets straightened out soon.

You are blessed with well catechized parish staff!

When you say sacramental record, I am guessing that means the certificate I got when I was received in the Church. I’m assuming they have the same info. recorded at the parish. My certificate doesn’t say anything about marriage, just “The Christ Community of in the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston joyfully welcomes into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church born on the fifteenth day of December 1989 in Houston, Texas. Baptized in the year 2009 at and who this day November 20, 2011 has made a solemn Profession of Faith, has been confirmed and has shared in the Holy Eucharist.”

Then it has my sponsor’s name and the priest’s signature.

Should this say something about my marriage? Or do they just record that at the parish?

 

[anp1215]

There might be a better way to go about this rather than try quoting canon law. The problem is that what you’re looking for is not exactly and explicitly mentioned in the canons–in other words, canon law does not say directly that “such a marriage is valid” instead that’s a conclusion which is drawn from what the law says. Someone who already does not know that your marriage is a valid one won’t understand what the canons are saying.

Does the priest at your home parish understand that your marriage is valid? I’ve tried reading through your post, but it’s not exactly clear to me who does and does-not understand. Is the priest who received you into the Church still your pastor?

There is a reason why I’m asking all this, so bear with me…

Many parish offices keep a supply of some simple little 3 X 5 forms called “Sponsor Certificates.” The purpose of these is that the home pastor certifies that you are qualified to be a sponsor for Baptism (or Confirmation). Rather than try to answer individual questions (like is your marriage valid?) the whole purpose of these is to make things simple. Chances are that your own priest has these in his desk. If not, he probably can do one on the computer and print it out in a few minutes. This sort of thing is very routine and priests do it all the time. All you need to do is approach your own pastor and request that he issue you a sponsor certificate–that’s all you have to say (other than “for whom”). He will know exactly what to do.

When the pastor of the place of baptism gets that sponsor certificate from your home pastor, that should settle the matter.

Hi, thanks for the info. I did not know that about the “sponsor certificates” as I have never been a sponsor before (obviously as I am a new Catholic).

I’m sorry, I know my post was not clear.

I was received into the Church last November at what was, at the time, my parish (in the neighboring town). The priest who received me was unclear as to whether my marriage was valid and initially said I needed a convalidation. I told him I did not, and he looked into it I suppose, and the next time I saw him he said “No, you do not need a convalidation, your marriage is already valid. Nothing further needs to be done.” Then he received me into the Church. Everything’s all good here.

Now I have moved into the neighboring town and am currently attending Mass and registered at my new parish. I have not met this pastor yet (but I would like to).

My friend had a baby in December. He wants to have her baptized in the parish he “grew up in” (I put that in quotes because he has not received any Sacraments besides Baptism, and did not regularly attend Mass as a child. He does not regularly attend Mass now either. But I won’t get into that now). This is the parish in another neighboring town and his other two children were baptized there. He called the parish office today to speak to the parish office about setting a date to have his new daughter baptized. I’m guessing he mentioned to the person he spoke to that I am a new convert to the Church. They told him that I could not be godmother because I was not married in the Church. I’m not sure who he talked to.

After he got off the phone with them, he called me and asked me to find something that backs up what I have been telling him, that I am married in the Church and eligible as godmother.

I hope that makes it more clear.

So I think what you are saying, I should go to my current parish and talk to my pastor about this and get a sponsor certificate.

 

[achmafooma]

You are blessed with well catechized parish staff!

When you say sacramental record, I am guessing that means the certificate I got when I was received in the Church. I’m assuming they have the same info. recorded at the parish. My certificate doesn’t say anything about marriage, just “The Christ Community of in the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston joyfully welcomes into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church born on the fifteenth day of December 1989 in Houston, Texas. Baptized in the year 2009 at and who this day November 20, 2011 has made a solemn Profession of Faith, has been confirmed and has shared in the Holy Eucharist.”

Then it has my sponsor’s name and the priest’s signature.

Should this say something about my marriage? Or do they just record that at the parish?

This won’t be in the certificate they gave you, but should be recorded in the Parish records (which are more detailed and complete).

For people Baptized as Catholics, their Sacramental record is ‘attached’ to the Baptismal record…so, for example, a Catholic who is Baptized as an infant at St. Paul’s Parish in Wherever, USA would have all their future Sacraments (Confirmation, Marriage or Holy Orders, etc.) recorded at St. Paul’s Parish in Wherever, USA even if they have moved somewhere else. So if you were confirmed at St. Mary’s Parish in Other Place, USA, they would (should?) send that information back to St. Paul’s in Wherever, USA so it gets recorded there.

For people like you and me who come to the Church later-on (after Baptism), the same kind of record stays ‘attached’ to the Confirmation record at the Parish where you were welcomed. This would include the record of your Confirmation, but also things like your Protestant Baptismal certificate and your civil and/or Protestant marriage certificate (usually these documents are collected, if they are available, during RCIA). This all becomes part of your Sacramental record as well. I know that my record includes my Confirmation record (my first ‘Catholic’ Sacrament), but also a copy of my Methodist Baptismal certificate and a copy of my Virginia Marriage Certificate (with the Pastor at my former Methodist Church listed as the officiant).

As FrDavid96 states, your current home Parish should be able to produce a small document certifying you are a Catholic in good standing, which should ‘clear’ you to serve as a godparent. They can consult with your records if your current home parish is your parish of record, or contact the parish of record if it’s a different place to verify. You may need to let your current Parish know where you were Confirmed so they can call the other Parish and verify everything you have told them.

God bless!

 

[anp1215]

This won’t be in the certificate they gave you, but should be recorded in the Parish records (which are more detailed and complete).

For people Baptized as Catholics, their Sacramental record is ‘attached’ to the Baptismal record…so, for example, a Catholic who is Baptized as an infant at St. Paul’s Parish in Wherever, USA would have all their future Sacraments (Confirmation, Marriage or Holy Orders, etc.) recorded at St. Paul’s Parish in Wherever, USA even if they have moved somewhere else. So if you were confirmed at St. Mary’s Parish in Other Place, USA, they would (should?) send that information back to St. Paul’s in Wherever, USA so it gets recorded there.

For people like you and me who come to the Church later-on (after Baptism), the same kind of record stays ‘attached’ to the Confirmation record at the Parish where you were welcomed. This would include the record of your Confirmation, but also things like your Protestant Baptismal certificate and your civil and/or Protestant marriage certificate (usually these documents are collected, if they are available, during RCIA). This all becomes part of your Sacramental record as well. I know that my record includes my Confirmation record (my first ‘Catholic’ Sacrament), but also a copy of my Methodist Baptismal certificate and a copy of my Virginia Marriage Certificate (with the Pastor at my former Methodist Church listed as the officiant).

As FrDavid96 states, your current home Parish should be able to produce a small document certifying you are a Catholic in good standing, which should ‘clear’ you to serve as a godparent. They can consult with your records if your current home parish is your parish of record, or contact the parish of record if it’s a different place to verify. You may need to let your current Parish know where you were Confirmed so they can call the other Parish and verify everything you have told them.

God bless!

Thank you…the parish where I was received never asked for my marriage certificate, so I don’t think they have a marriage record for me. But I will just go talk to my current pastor.

 

[1ke]

You should request an official copy of your sacramental records (with parish seal) from the parish that received you into full communion (that parish is now your “baptismal parish” in the sense that it will always be the parish of record for your sacraments). If your records were recorded properly at the time you converted, your sacramental records should include:

• Received into full communion should be notated either under the Baptism Register or the Received Into Full Communion Register (depending upon how that parish keeps records)
• Confirmation entered in the Confirmation Register
• Eucharist entered in the First Holy Communion Register
• There should be notations in the baptismal or full communion register for your original baptism and your marriage (there is an actual column in the register called “notations”)

If you determine that your records are not properly recorded, then ask that they be updated with your marriage information.

 

[anp1215]

You should request an official copy of your sacramental records (with parish seal) from the parish that received you into full communion (that parish is now your “baptismal parish” in the sense that it will always be the parish of record for your sacraments). If your records were recorded properly at the time you converted, your sacramental records should include:

• Received into full communion should be notated either under the Baptism Register or the Received Into Full Communion Register (depending upon how that parish keeps records)
• Confirmation entered in the Confirmation Register
• Eucharist entered in the First Holy Communion Register
• There should be notations in the baptismal or full communion register for your original baptism and your marriage (there is an actual column in the register called “notations”)

If you determine that your records are not properly recorded, then ask that they be updated with your marriage information.

ok, thank you.

 

[FrDavid96]

…

So I think what you are saying, I should go to my current parish and talk to my pastor about this and get a sponsor certificate.

Exactly. That’s the bottom line. Just get a sponsor certificate from your current pastor. The pastor of the place where the baptism is happening should (likely) not need anything more. The whole purpose of the certificate is that this is your home pastor (the one who presumably knows you, although you did say you’re new there) saying to the pastor of baptism “this person is qualified. I have already looked into this and everything is in order.” Remember that it is not the person answering the phone who gets to make this decision–that’s the pastor’s decision; and if your pastor says that you’re qualified that is usually all that’s needed.

Again, just kindly ask your own pastor for a “sponsor certificate” and he’ll take it from there. This is a very very routine thing that pastors do all the time. There’s a reason why these things come packed in pads of 50

Getting your baptismal record straight and complete is a different issue–something you should do of course. But there is just no reason why you should have to provide this to the place of baptism (for the newborn that you’re sponsoring) provided that you give them a sponsor certificate.

 

[Castello]

Your parish will send a document that is signed by your pastor that states you are a Catholic in good standing and that you meet the requirements to be a godparent/sponsor. Your parish office does these things all of the time. Just ask them for it.

 

[anp1215]

Exactly. That’s the bottom line. Just get a sponsor certificate from your current pastor. The pastor of the place where the baptism is happening should (likely) not need anything more. The whole purpose of the certificate is that this is your home pastor (the one who presumably knows you, although you did say you’re new there) saying to the pastor of baptism “this person is qualified. I have already looked into this and everything is in order.” Remember that it is not the person answering the phone who gets to make this decision–that’s the pastor’s decision; and if your pastor says that you’re qualified that is usually all that’s needed.

Again, just kindly ask your own pastor for a “sponsor certificate” and he’ll take it from there. This is a very very routine thing that pastors do all the time. There’s a reason why these things come packed in pads of 50

Getting your baptismal record straight and complete is a different issue–something you should do of course. But there is just no reason why you should have to provide this to the place of baptism (for the newborn that you’re sponsoring) provided that you give them a sponsor certificate.

Thanks for this info.

Do you think I should go to the priest that confirmed me or my current pastor? I know the default answer is my current pastor, but as I said I have only been a Catholic for 3 months, and I did RCIA, attended Mass, and was received into the Church at my old parish, and the pastor there knows me personally because of this. I’ve only been attending Mass and registered at the new parish for 3 months (right after I was received) and have not met the pastor. I have been using the envelopes for regular offering though. Will he still give me the certificate?

 

[1ke]

start with your current pastor and ask him to guide you.

 

[anp1215]

start with your current pastor and ask him to guide you.

will do. Ok, I will call the church tomorrow.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thanks for this info.

Do you think I should go to the priest that confirmed me or my current pastor? I know the default answer is my current pastor, but as I said I have only been a Catholic for 3 months, and I did RCIA, attended Mass, and was received into the Church at my old parish, and the pastor there knows me personally because of this. I’ve only been attending Mass and registered at the new parish for 3 months (right after I was received) and have not met the pastor. I have been using the envelopes for regular offering though. Will he still give me the certificate?

Your current pastor. That’s how these things work.

The pastor who brought you into the Church might know you better, but he cannot issue a sponsor certificate since he is not your current pastor.

Believe me, just go to your current pastor and request a sponsor certificate. He knows what to do, and if he decides he needs more information, he’ll be the one to decide to contact your former pastor.

Please believe me, this is a routine thing that priests do all the time. Don’t worry about how he does it. Just make the request and let him handle it.

If you go to him and ask for a sponsor certificate you’ll find that it takes less time to get that done than you’ve already spent on this thread. It’s like I wrote earlier, there’s a reason why these things come in packs of 50—it’s done all the time and it’s no big deal. Don’t stress yourself over this.

 

[anp1215]

Your current pastor. That’s how these things work.

The pastor who brought you into the Church might know you better, but he cannot issue a sponsor certificate since he is not your current pastor.

Believe me, just go to your current pastor and request a sponsor certificate. He knows what to do, and if he decides he needs more information, he’ll be the one to decide to contact your former pastor.

Please believe me, this is a routine thing that priests do all the time. Don’t worry about how he does it. Just make the request and let him handle it.

If you go to him and ask for a sponsor certificate you’ll find that it takes less time to get that done than you’ve already spent on this thread. It’s like I wrote earlier, there’s a reason why these things come in packs of 50—it’s done all the time and it’s no big deal. Don’t stress yourself over this.

OK, I will ask him, the only reason I brought that up was because I’ve heard him say in a homily before, something along the lines of, “When people come up to me requesting a sponsor certificate and I’ve never even met them…” basically that that’s not a good thing. And I completely get what he’s saying. Some people probably just waltz up to the church and have no active parish life at all, don’t attend Mass, etc.

But surely he will understand since I have only been registered here for 3 months. And for that matter, only been Catholic for 3 months.

thanks for your help!