P
Perry5
Guest
Love your child unconditionaly.
God’s word and his will are best served thrue understanding than thrue condemnation.
God’s word and his will are best served thrue understanding than thrue condemnation.
- Status
G
gingerale
Guest
Dear David,
I am very sorry for the tough times you and your son are going through. We have to begin with people where they are. Therefore, I would just pray and pray and then I would try to find creative ways to spend more time with your son. Can you call him up and invite him to go to the dinner and the movies with you? If he suggests bringing his partner along, I would let him do so. You may in the end be able to bring two people back to the church by doing so.
I am not saying that you should abandon your belief that homosexuality is wrong or give any signs that may indicate that you accept this type of lifestyle. However, we all meet people everyday who are not living a lifestyle we would approve of, e.g. heterosexual partners living together without benefit of marriage. Yet, we continue to be cordial and pleasant to these people; if they ask for our help we give it gladly, if at all possible. We do this all the time without changing our opinion on what is right or wrong, and if they ask us we politely tell them what we believe and what that belief is based on, i.e. that we are not homophobic or just trying to condemn people, on the contrary, we wish for all people to enjoy all the benefits of the full grace of God’s love, and we see the best way for them to do this is through following, as much as possible, the directions he gives us for our lives.
You are absolutely correct that you must be very careful how you talk to people who are suicidal. We have had a tremendous loss in our family this past August. My brother’s oldest son committed suicide at the age of 35, leaving behind a wife, a boy six, and a girl three. We are all devastated and never saw this coming. He never threatened suicide. He had never been on any kind of ant-depressants, tranquilizers, sleeping pills and so forth until he became depressed about his work. He went to see the psychiatrist and twelve days later he hung himself in a hotel room (my brother, his father, found him). He was the sweetest, most loving boy and if we are all judged by how much love we create in this world, then I personally do not know anyone who will come out better than he will. He always just wanted everyone to be happy, get along, and love one another; something he routinely practiced in his life. You think of all the times, perhaps you should have said or done more to help him; however, we honestly did not know the extent of the torment he was living through.
I regret to say this may be true for your son on some very deep level. Even though he says the times are “out of touch”, on some very deep level he probably feels a lot of shame and guilt for his lifestyle choice. He probably also suffers from the way he sees that homosexuals are mistreated in this country. Jesus did say we are to love the sinner and hate the sin; so all forms of mistreatment of any person who is not trying to harm you are very unjust.
I will continue to keep you and your son in my prayers. I truly hope you can just find a way to spend some time with him. Please do not beat yourself up about the time lost in being with him due to your divorce from his mother. Divorce has, unfortunately, become a very prevalant part of our culture, and we are just now learning of all the harmful effects it can have upon children. However, it took two people to cause this divorce, and there is nothing you can do about the past.
I am always amazed at how many grown men complain about how they wish they had gotten closer to their own fathers, how they wish their fathers had spent more time with them, etc. This is something you CAN DO, and I believe you will reap many positive benefits from this. I sometimes think when men drift into homosexual tendencies that they are on some deep level trying to reconnect with their father figure. You are lucky that you still have time to spend with your son. I think this and prayer are the two most important things you can do for your son and yourself.
Love,
gingerale
I am very sorry for the tough times you and your son are going through. We have to begin with people where they are. Therefore, I would just pray and pray and then I would try to find creative ways to spend more time with your son. Can you call him up and invite him to go to the dinner and the movies with you? If he suggests bringing his partner along, I would let him do so. You may in the end be able to bring two people back to the church by doing so.
I am not saying that you should abandon your belief that homosexuality is wrong or give any signs that may indicate that you accept this type of lifestyle. However, we all meet people everyday who are not living a lifestyle we would approve of, e.g. heterosexual partners living together without benefit of marriage. Yet, we continue to be cordial and pleasant to these people; if they ask for our help we give it gladly, if at all possible. We do this all the time without changing our opinion on what is right or wrong, and if they ask us we politely tell them what we believe and what that belief is based on, i.e. that we are not homophobic or just trying to condemn people, on the contrary, we wish for all people to enjoy all the benefits of the full grace of God’s love, and we see the best way for them to do this is through following, as much as possible, the directions he gives us for our lives.
You are absolutely correct that you must be very careful how you talk to people who are suicidal. We have had a tremendous loss in our family this past August. My brother’s oldest son committed suicide at the age of 35, leaving behind a wife, a boy six, and a girl three. We are all devastated and never saw this coming. He never threatened suicide. He had never been on any kind of ant-depressants, tranquilizers, sleeping pills and so forth until he became depressed about his work. He went to see the psychiatrist and twelve days later he hung himself in a hotel room (my brother, his father, found him). He was the sweetest, most loving boy and if we are all judged by how much love we create in this world, then I personally do not know anyone who will come out better than he will. He always just wanted everyone to be happy, get along, and love one another; something he routinely practiced in his life. You think of all the times, perhaps you should have said or done more to help him; however, we honestly did not know the extent of the torment he was living through.
I regret to say this may be true for your son on some very deep level. Even though he says the times are “out of touch”, on some very deep level he probably feels a lot of shame and guilt for his lifestyle choice. He probably also suffers from the way he sees that homosexuals are mistreated in this country. Jesus did say we are to love the sinner and hate the sin; so all forms of mistreatment of any person who is not trying to harm you are very unjust.
I will continue to keep you and your son in my prayers. I truly hope you can just find a way to spend some time with him. Please do not beat yourself up about the time lost in being with him due to your divorce from his mother. Divorce has, unfortunately, become a very prevalant part of our culture, and we are just now learning of all the harmful effects it can have upon children. However, it took two people to cause this divorce, and there is nothing you can do about the past.
I am always amazed at how many grown men complain about how they wish they had gotten closer to their own fathers, how they wish their fathers had spent more time with them, etc. This is something you CAN DO, and I believe you will reap many positive benefits from this. I sometimes think when men drift into homosexual tendencies that they are on some deep level trying to reconnect with their father figure. You are lucky that you still have time to spend with your son. I think this and prayer are the two most important things you can do for your son and yourself.
Love,
gingerale
B
BibleReader
Guest
Since I am neither gay nor a psychologist, my words here are not expert at all. I only believe, to the best of my lights, that the following is correct.
There is a theory out there that the little boys who grow up to be gay are the ones who start-out life being perfectly normal but extremely male-imitative. They are the toddlers who want to be with their daddies day and night. “Forget mommy,” in other words, “Where’s my daddy?”
The problem arises if daddy is not a demonstrative “hugger” – i.e., he’s “cold fish” – or a nasty so-and-so, or he’s just not around.
The theory is that these extremely male-dependent, male-imitative “super-man” toddlers, lacking a daddy to imitate, substitute-in mommy. And one of the things they imitate – and permanently imprint – is mommy’s love for males.
Supposedly, all of this must happen before the age of 4.
Once they make it past 4, the “imprinting” age, their sexual orientation is supposedly fundamentally safe.
I personally believe that the theory is fundamentally correct.
Now, if the boy grows up imprinted wrong, he’s going to go through with guys what we went through with girls – if he looks, and it fits his mental image of what’s “attractive,” he’s going to be attracted.
He’ll have this imprinting warring with him, and banging away at him, day in and day out, if he looks, and as with girls, it’s hard to not bump into some “looking” even if you have the best controlled eyes on Earth.
The problem with that mistaken imprinting that male homosexuals have, of course, is that it doesn’t fit human physiology. Girls are equipped with the “equipment” a guy needs to do something about heterosexual imprinting. Additionally, the “shape” of a female mind complements the “shape” of male psychology. Neither is true of homosexual males, who as a consequence are left “stranded.”
So, they look for physical ways to do something with those hormones which mimics dealing with the female physiology, because otherwise they are stranded.
I think that this is very important to understand: Male homosexual imprinting doesn’t say, “Engage in this variety of orgasmic sexual activity not intercourse” or “engage in that variety of orgasmic sexual activity not intercourse.” It says, “DO SOMETHING with that male over there.”
So, the fundamentalists appear to me to be half wrong and half right. Contrary to what they claim, homosexual feelings are NOT the boy’s fault. But, whether to express and *how to express those feelings * are the boy’s fault. (Otherwise, no one is “making love,” voluntarily, to anyone – we are all hormone-driven dogs rutting uncontrollably in the dark.)
TO BE CONTINUED
There is a theory out there that the little boys who grow up to be gay are the ones who start-out life being perfectly normal but extremely male-imitative. They are the toddlers who want to be with their daddies day and night. “Forget mommy,” in other words, “Where’s my daddy?”
The problem arises if daddy is not a demonstrative “hugger” – i.e., he’s “cold fish” – or a nasty so-and-so, or he’s just not around.
The theory is that these extremely male-dependent, male-imitative “super-man” toddlers, lacking a daddy to imitate, substitute-in mommy. And one of the things they imitate – and permanently imprint – is mommy’s love for males.
Supposedly, all of this must happen before the age of 4.
Once they make it past 4, the “imprinting” age, their sexual orientation is supposedly fundamentally safe.
I personally believe that the theory is fundamentally correct.
Now, if the boy grows up imprinted wrong, he’s going to go through with guys what we went through with girls – if he looks, and it fits his mental image of what’s “attractive,” he’s going to be attracted.
He’ll have this imprinting warring with him, and banging away at him, day in and day out, if he looks, and as with girls, it’s hard to not bump into some “looking” even if you have the best controlled eyes on Earth.
The problem with that mistaken imprinting that male homosexuals have, of course, is that it doesn’t fit human physiology. Girls are equipped with the “equipment” a guy needs to do something about heterosexual imprinting. Additionally, the “shape” of a female mind complements the “shape” of male psychology. Neither is true of homosexual males, who as a consequence are left “stranded.”
So, they look for physical ways to do something with those hormones which mimics dealing with the female physiology, because otherwise they are stranded.
I think that this is very important to understand: Male homosexual imprinting doesn’t say, “Engage in this variety of orgasmic sexual activity not intercourse” or “engage in that variety of orgasmic sexual activity not intercourse.” It says, “DO SOMETHING with that male over there.”
So, the fundamentalists appear to me to be half wrong and half right. Contrary to what they claim, homosexual feelings are NOT the boy’s fault. But, whether to express and *how to express those feelings * are the boy’s fault. (Otherwise, no one is “making love,” voluntarily, to anyone – we are all hormone-driven dogs rutting uncontrollably in the dark.)
TO BE CONTINUED
B
BibleReader
Guest
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
I think that homosexuals are called to personal celibacy. (We are ALL called to SOME celibacy, with our eyes [because you’re not allowed to “check out what’s shakin’ by,” if you’re mareried] and with our body [because, darn, there are times when she’s JUST NOT INTERESTED, and it’s our job to “keep our pants on” in a cheerful, giving way when that is true, right?].) Homosexuals are called to total homosexual celibacy.
Why?
Well, again, remember, I am an amateur, here: But I think, Precisely BECAUSE nature has left them stranded. When they are intimate the way they are intimate, they crash into other taboos. Homosexual behavior typically involves regular intimate behavior with someone else’s physiological sewer system. Our heads and brains are “up here,” and the rest of the stuff is “down there,” and there is fundamental human psychology agreeing with that orientation. Non-coital orgasmic sexual behavior (including non-coital orgasmic heterosexual behavior) wars with that orientation. So, it traumatizes, rather than fulfills.
Up above a few of the folks say, “Love him no matter what.” Good advice. And a few said, “Pray for him.” Good advice. Pray that he finds peace with God and with himself. (Why not find a good chapel, where you can spend some time alone with God?) By the way, God always answers prayers. Remember that.
Perhaps, after a few years – not now, not now – you can suggest to him that he experiment with celibacy.
By the way, when you pray to God, let GOD direct YOU. YOU don’t tell God hoiw to fix things.
Additionally, don’t forget to ask God to change YOU so that you can best serve GOD’S Will in all of this. Don’t assume that you are the “cat’s whisker.”
And, I just said a prayer for both of you.
I think that homosexuals are called to personal celibacy. (We are ALL called to SOME celibacy, with our eyes [because you’re not allowed to “check out what’s shakin’ by,” if you’re mareried] and with our body [because, darn, there are times when she’s JUST NOT INTERESTED, and it’s our job to “keep our pants on” in a cheerful, giving way when that is true, right?].) Homosexuals are called to total homosexual celibacy.
Why?
Well, again, remember, I am an amateur, here: But I think, Precisely BECAUSE nature has left them stranded. When they are intimate the way they are intimate, they crash into other taboos. Homosexual behavior typically involves regular intimate behavior with someone else’s physiological sewer system. Our heads and brains are “up here,” and the rest of the stuff is “down there,” and there is fundamental human psychology agreeing with that orientation. Non-coital orgasmic sexual behavior (including non-coital orgasmic heterosexual behavior) wars with that orientation. So, it traumatizes, rather than fulfills.
Up above a few of the folks say, “Love him no matter what.” Good advice. And a few said, “Pray for him.” Good advice. Pray that he finds peace with God and with himself. (Why not find a good chapel, where you can spend some time alone with God?) By the way, God always answers prayers. Remember that.
Perhaps, after a few years – not now, not now – you can suggest to him that he experiment with celibacy.
By the way, when you pray to God, let GOD direct YOU. YOU don’t tell God hoiw to fix things.
Additionally, don’t forget to ask God to change YOU so that you can best serve GOD’S Will in all of this. Don’t assume that you are the “cat’s whisker.”
And, I just said a prayer for both of you.
C
cynthia
Guest
Dear David,
If I were you I would do the following:
Give him the book True Devotion by St. Louis Marie DeMontfort.
If you still go to mass with him, go early and see if he will go to confession.
Make a Novena of holy hours of nine consecutive days for him.
Be sure you’re in the state of grace before going to the holy hour since you and your son won’t receive any graces if you’re not.
Be at peace and trust in God to enlighten him and change him. Our Lady ***will ***change him.
If I were you I would do the following:
Give him the book True Devotion by St. Louis Marie DeMontfort.
If you still go to mass with him, go early and see if he will go to confession.
Make a Novena of holy hours of nine consecutive days for him.
Be sure you’re in the state of grace before going to the holy hour since you and your son won’t receive any graces if you’re not.
Be at peace and trust in God to enlighten him and change him. Our Lady ***will ***change him.
B
Brad
Guest
God’s word and his will are best served by following His word and His will not by accepting sin as just another choice. Love the sinner. Hate the sin.
T
Tlaloc
Guest
There are some very nice posts on this thread but I think was my personal favorite.
T
trevor
Guest
Jrabs nailed it when he wrote the key word in all of this “DECEPTION”. And the best thing you can in this situation is let him know how much you love him and pray, fast, pray and fast some more.
I will keep your son in my prayers as well. Have faith!!
God will hear all of the prayers for your son.God bless you and your family.
ybiC,
Trevor
H
hurdlr23
Guest
I am an 18 year old, and I want to comment about a few of the things people have said, and since I am probably closer to your son’s generation, this may be some advice that can help.
Although I am Catholic, I am not completely for the church’s beleifs. Not everyone is, and I am guessing your son is not. So taking the purely moral argument to him is not a good idea.
Second, do not appear to be too much against it. He just may be rebelling against you (hey, nothing against you, but all kids rebel), so your stance could appear closed minded to him, and you could lose him for even longer.
Also, our culture is not exactly making homosexuality the “cool” thing, but tolerating it and embracing it as part of American culture. As Catholics, we are supposed to love our enemies, so I am angered as an American when I see anti-gay material.
Finally, I have to say this. Recent studies have shown that there are physical issues leading to homosexuality (i.e., higher testosterone in the women’s case), so if this is the case, how is it morally wrong if this is indeed the natural thing for them?
If anyone can answer that I would greatly appreciate it.
Back to your son, good luck sir. Trust in God, and the right thing will happen somehow, maybe not what you were hoping for, but what is supposed to happen.
Although I am Catholic, I am not completely for the church’s beleifs. Not everyone is, and I am guessing your son is not. So taking the purely moral argument to him is not a good idea.
Second, do not appear to be too much against it. He just may be rebelling against you (hey, nothing against you, but all kids rebel), so your stance could appear closed minded to him, and you could lose him for even longer.
Also, our culture is not exactly making homosexuality the “cool” thing, but tolerating it and embracing it as part of American culture. As Catholics, we are supposed to love our enemies, so I am angered as an American when I see anti-gay material.
Finally, I have to say this. Recent studies have shown that there are physical issues leading to homosexuality (i.e., higher testosterone in the women’s case), so if this is the case, how is it morally wrong if this is indeed the natural thing for them?
If anyone can answer that I would greatly appreciate it.
Back to your son, good luck sir. Trust in God, and the right thing will happen somehow, maybe not what you were hoping for, but what is supposed to happen.
C
caroljm36
Guest
You’re showing your youth here. That testosterone theory is quite old, and in fact my 86-year-old mother learned it in high school circa 1936. Not sure there’s anything to it. No genetic or other physical cause has yet been found for homosexual orientation. For this discussion it is a red herring.
M
m134e5
Guest
God would have to be very cruel not to pay attention to a person’s prayers out of love for another person because the person praying for them is not in a state of grace. Prayers of repentence are always heard, whether you are in confession or have just realized the error of your ways and are appologizing. Prayers out of love for another person are always heard too. Of course you can receive graces- you pray before confession that you make a worthy confession- that is a grace in itself, and if you make a worthy confession, that grace is granted to you while you are still in a state of mortal sin. One of the most damaging things you can do to a person’s spiritual life is to tell them there is no use praying until you have physically gone to confession. The soul is dead when in a state of mortal sin- that means it cannot gain sanctifying grace, or indulgences or anything like that, but actual grace is different. Actual grace is what inspires us to go to confession, even when we are scared to go (among many things).
A translation of part of the Dies Irae:
You who have absolved Mary,
and have heard the thief’s prayer,
have also given me hope.
My prayers are not worthy,
but you, o Good One, please grant freely
that I do not burn in the eternal fire.
L
lovesdada
Guest
Rather than spout earnest good intentions and ignorant rhetoric, why not consult the Church’s actual teachings on this matter–particularly JPII’s statement on homosexuality, wherein the “gay lifestyle” is recognized as an immutable orienation, not a rebellion against parents, a lack of interest in sports, etc. You’ll also see that we are called to do our utmost to provide care and love for all homosexuals–more so than for our other neighbors, for yes, homosexuals are called to celibacy, just as anyone unable to create children within a marriage must also remain celibate. Pray for your son, of course, it’s hard to be gay today. Pray for yourself, for who doesn’t? And rather than chanting “hate the sin, love the sinner,” make some less “hate”-filled saying your mantra.
- Status