I need undeniable, hard hitting, objective evidence for my brother

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Generic_Man

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My older brother is what I like to call ‘high off of yourself’. He swears often, occasionally (I gotta stress that part, he’s far from a junkie) smokes pot, often participates in “hook-ups” (you know, when you make out with a girl just for fun), and he has claimed he has had sex at least once (he says it was OK because the girl was just dumped by her boyfriend and she thought that all guys hated her and the like and he just wanted to ‘help her out’ or some such foolishness), listens to raher dirty music, and is generally a selfish and unpleasant person. I remember when he was drunk once he was more pleasant. He was really mellow then.

Anyways as you can see, my brother is involved with a lot of garbage that I don’t want him in. I need evidence to show that all these things are wrong.

It’s pretty narrow though. First, doctrine is out of the question because he rejects all doctrine that is inconvenient to his social life. And I’m worried if I use too many Bible quotes he’s write me off as a crazy funamentalist or something, also the Bible verses in question would have to be pretty specific so there’s no room for doubt. Cold, hard logic could work well.
 
Take him to a Steubenville retreat, or something similar and Catholic since Steubenville is over for the year in America as far as I know. There’s nothing like a retreat to get someone back on the straight and narrow, in my experience. 🙂
 
OnlyAmbrose said:
Take him to a Steubenville retreat, or something similar and Catholic since Steubenville is over for the year in America as far as I know. There’s nothing like a retreat to get someone back on the straight and narrow, in my experience. 🙂
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There is no possible way I can get him to do that now. I’m talking about sitting down and talking with him about all of that stuff, at least first.
 
From the way you describe him, I’d make a bunch of holy hours before I tried talking to him! Sounds like the kind of person who will argue w/ most anything. Arm yourself w/ grace first.
—KCT
 
Also, don’t start out the conversation with “you’re wrong”, basically, don’t lecture him b/c you’ll only turn him away more. Ask him questions and truly be sincere in wanting to know why he does what he does. Listen to him, respect his dignity. While he’s talking don’t think about what you’re going to say next. Bite your tounge a lot. You’re best approach isn’t to make this a one-time conversation and hope that he finally listens and changes. That will be insincere and he’ll know that. Truly be interested in his life and struggles. Find out who your brother truly is (not who you want him to be or who he was a few years ago). Once you understand your brother for who he is and how he thinks now you’ll be able to figure out what approach will and will not work when trying to help him turn from his self-destructive ways. He already is rebellious, and therefore doesn’t really trust you nor your sincerety (at least it sounds that way based on what you’ve written). You need to earn his trust before he’ll even truly listen to your advice.
 
How about watching a video testimony of someone who has lived a secular life then turned themselves around? Fr Corapi? Not saying that their stories are identical but he was definately on the wrong track and was turned around by God; and he’s a charismatic, convincing and sincere speaker. You could just “happen” to be watching a video when you invite him over for dinner one night. Maybe casually say “Do you mind if I finish watching this? He’s lived such a fascinating life, I just want to see how he got to where he is today.” Even if he saw just a little it might be an opening to deeper conversation.

And don’t forget to pray! Especially at Mass, where our prayers are the most efficacious because they are joined with the sacrifice of our Lord on Calvary. Why not go the whole hog - call on his gaurdian angel, say a novena, pray the rosary, ask his patron saint for prayers or find out who would be a good saint for hardened sinners…Padre Pio? The Cure of Ars? (Oh - DH suggests St Mary Magdalene and St Augustine.)

Also, I know you feel a sense of urgency about his soul but…this could take time. In general people don’t turn around long ingrained habits in the course on one conversation. I pray that God shows mercy and patience to my friends and relatives who are living outside of His will. I pray that they have all the time that they need to repent and get on the right track. This helps to take the edge off that desperate feeling while talking to them about the Faith…because I think that just turns people off and makes them feel as though they are being judged. You want to keep the door between you open - not have it slammed shut in your face.

Lastly perhaps you could take on some small penances on his behalf…skipping a meal or even just dessert and offering it up in reparation for his continued unrepentance.

P.S. Start a CAF prayer thread. 🙂
 
I strongly suggest you read Search and Rescue by Patrick Madrid before approaching a family member about morality and doctrine, except through your own good example. It is so easy to make a damaging mistake that will set back this person’s progress and your ability to talk rationally to them for years.
 
So you’ve told me that it should be a gradual process, lots of payer would help, and to learn abut similar stories. But I still need convincing evidence against all of his vices. Those are the core of this.
 
The best thing you can do is be the good example. Eventually he’ll see your life is working and his is not and he’s going to want to know why. Appeal to his intelligence. My mom’s secret weapon was “You’re smarter than that.” Who’s going to say “No, I’m actually an idiot.” (That comes later, when enlightenment hits.) Keep praying for him and for the right words to say to him. You can’t hit him over the head with something he’s not ready to see. Until he is, pray, keep the door open and tell him you love him too much to see him behave that way. Remember the Prodigal Son. He eventually wised up.
 
Live your beliefs.

Often folks say “God/Christ loves you exactly where you are, exactly as you are, so why don’t you completely change…and then you’ll feel that love.”

That is a head scratcher.

Live your belief. If his life is unsatisfying and he sees good stuff in yours, he’ll get interested. If God/Christ love his as he is, where he is, let him experience that love through you.

You don’t have to participate and condone anything that you feel is wrong. And it’s fine to let him know how you feel. “Sorry, can’t come to a party where folks will be smoking up, let’s get together another time.” etc.

There are no arguments to convince someone of the truth. They have to experience the truth.
 
Generic_Man said:
So you’ve told me that it should be a gradual process, lots of payer would help, and to learn abut similar stories. But I still need convincing evidence against all of his vices. Those are the core of this.
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Negative, Generic Man. The vices are the fruits, not the core. The core is his worldview.
From your description of him, his activities, and your profile, I’m guessing you’re both rather young, much like me and my brother (22 and 19 respectively). Try to connect with him, not with pot or lots of alcohol, but maybe movies, or basketball or something. Be polite (I know, very difficult), be there, and be Christian. Once your relationship is more solid, move on to actual conversation. Let us know when you get here 😃
Oh!, and pray!
 
Spirithound said:
Negative, Generic Man. The vices are the fruits, not the core. The core is his worldview.
From your description of him, his activities, and your profile, I’m guessing you’re both rather young, much like me and my brother (22 and 19 respectively). Try to connect with him, not with pot or lots of alcohol, but maybe movies, or basketball or something. Be polite (I know, very difficult), be there, and be Christian. Once your relationship is more solid, move on to actual conversation. Let us know when you get here 😃
Oh!, and pray!
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Actually we’re both younger than that- we’re both teenagers.

Setting an example could work. I’m getting the feeling my brother wants to assimilate me into his culture so we could get a chance to talk more.
 
Generic_Man said:
So you’ve told me that it should be a gradual process, lots of payer would help, and to learn abut similar stories. But I still need convincing evidence against all of his vices. Those are the core of this.
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No one likes a lecture. After prayer and sacrifice, simply share your beliefs and practices when the conversation allows. It may make him think. Coming across as ‘judging’ him or pointing out his faults is a quick way to break off communications. —KCT
 
Generic_Man said:
Setting an example could work. I’m getting the feeling my brother wants to assimilate me into his culture so we could get a chance to talk more.
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Exactly. But you need to make sure that you don’t get assimilated into his culture, you want to try to change his culture into something less destructive, and eventually constructive. So, keep praying, and keep talking, but don’t force the issue.
 
Read St. Augustin’es Confessions. There is some excellent information that will be really helpful to you in there.
 
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