I never promised you a garden

[CopticChristian]

I am dripping with sincerity. I cannot for the life of me decide whether Mormons believe that atonement was based on the folly of the Cross as Paul says or some other gospel, not that there is another gospel, or an atonement in the garden of Gethsamane. Does anybody know for sure if Mormons teach atonement in the garden as opposed to the cross?

1. “We honor His birth. But without His death that birth would have been but one more birth. It was the redemption which He worked out in the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross of Calvary which made His gift immortal, universal, and everlasting,” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “A Season for Gratitude,” Ensign, Dec. 1997, p. 4 ).
2. D&C 19

18 Which asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

1. “Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind, even as many as will, shall be redeemed. The Savior began shedding His blood for all mankind, not on the cross but in the Garden of Gethsemane. There He took upon Himself the weight of the sins of all who would ever live. Under that [page 6] heavy load, He bled at every pore,” (Russell M. Nelson, “His Mission and Ministry,” New Era, Dec. 1999, p. 4, 6,
2. “Our church believes that Christ’s crucifixion was an important part of the atonement, but we believe that a more important part was when he suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane,” (“Q&A: Questions and Answers,” New Era, Sept. 1996, p. 18,

“It was then that his father taught young Paul a great lesson. He asked the ministers if they understood the principle of Christ’s atonement. They seemed a little puzzled. His father said, “In our Church, we believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel” (third article of faith). He explained that the atonement allows each of us to be forgiven of our sins if we repent. Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. As the only perfect person who ever lived on earth, He was the only one who could do this for us. We could not do it for ourselves. Without His sacrifice, we could never be forgiven of our sins and would not be able to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus again,” (Laurel Rohlfing, “Sharing Time: The Atonement,” Friend, Mar. 1989, p. 39

1. jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings/articles/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ

My objective is to try and introduce sources for consideration that seem to be never otherwise addressed when it comes to the Mormons.

 

[mwok]

What about baptism for the dead?

The one scripture that is referrence really shows that Paul is distancing himself from the “they” that perform baptisms for their dead. Otherwise, the verse would read “whatelse are we baptized for the dead”

I hope this doesn’t take away from the direction you were intending.

 

[CopticChristian]

What about baptism for the dead?

The one scripture that is referrence really shows that Paul is distancing himself from the “they” that perform baptisms for their dead. Otherwise, the verse would read “whatelse are we baptized for the dead”

I hope this doesn’t take away from the direction you were intending.

Exposing the beliefs is the proper direction

 

[Edmundus1581]

I have no idea what this thread is about, but I’m glad I visited because it inspired me to find the song

 

[philial]

As is widely known, Atonement simply means At One Ment.

It is an error of the first kind to separtate the works of Christ from the person of Christ. From the moment of His conception within the womb of Mary, the work of our salvation had begun, for then God and humanity were as One!

With regard to (what catholic call) the agony in th garden, we need to go back to the last supper: There are 4 cups of wine used (forget the 5th - it’s not important). The third cup was the cupof blessing, which is the drink taken ‘when supper had ended’. To complete the last supper - or seder - Jesus should have taken the 4th cup - called the cup of comsumation. But he didnt. Instead he went to the garden, faced the passion, and, just before he died, said ‘I thirst’. Then he drank, said ’ It is consumated’, and died.

So, from this we can see that the last supper, the agony in the garden, the passion, and the crucifixion, are one flowing action that is the final great act of self-giving that began with the small seed in the Virgin’s womb.

So, mormons are wrong. Terribly wrong. but then, so are all protestants who deny the significance of the Eucharist’s relationship with the Cross (which error, incidentially, neither Luther nor Calvin fell completely into!).

 

[Esdra]

As is widely known, Atonement simply means At One Ment.

It is an error of the first kind to separtate the works of Christ from the person of Christ. From the moment of His conception within the womb of Mary, the work of our salvation had begun, for then God and humanity were as One!

With regard to (what catholic call) the agony in th garden, we need to go back to the last supper: There are 4 cups of wine used (forget the 5th - it’s not important). The third cup was the cupof blessing, which is the drink taken ‘when supper had ended’. To complete the last supper - or seder - Jesus should have taken the 4th cup - called the cup of comsumation. But he didnt. Instead he went to the garden, faced the passion, and, just before he died, said ‘I thirst’. Then he drank, said ’ It is consumated’, and died.

So, from this we can see that the last supper, the agony in the garden, the passion, and the crucifixion, are one flowing action that is the final great act of self-giving that began with the small seed in the Virgin’s womb.

So, mormons are wrong. Terribly wrong. but then, so are all protestants who deny the significance of the Eucharist’s relationship with the Cross (which error, incidentially, neither Luther nor Calvin fell completely into!).

Hm, just one short remark: I’ve thought that Calvin and Zwingli right from the beginning thought of the Eucharist being only symbolic?

I do know that Luther has believed his whole life in the Eucharist but Calvin and Zwingli?

in Christ,

 

[CopticChristian]

I have no idea what this thread is about, but I’m glad I visited because it inspired me to find the song

Yes, it is a good song!

 

[CopticChristian]

As is widely known, Atonement simply means At One Ment.

It is an error of the first kind to separtate the works of Christ from the person of Christ. From the moment of His conception within the womb of Mary, the work of our salvation had begun, for then God and humanity were as One!

With regard to (what catholic call) the agony in th garden, we need to go back to the last supper: There are 4 cups of wine used (forget the 5th - it’s not important). The third cup was the cupof blessing, which is the drink taken ‘when supper had ended’. To complete the last supper - or seder - Jesus should have taken the 4th cup - called the cup of comsumation. But he didnt. Instead he went to the garden, faced the passion, and, just before he died, said ‘I thirst’. Then he drank, said ’ It is consumated’, and died.

So, from this we can see that the last supper, the agony in the garden, the passion, and the crucifixion, are one flowing action that is the final great act of self-giving that began with the small seed in the Virgin’s womb.

So, mormons are wrong. Terribly wrong. but then, so are all protestants who deny the significance of the Eucharist’s relationship with the Cross (which error, incidentially, neither Luther nor Calvin fell completely into!).

This is important and I shall bring this to the attention of Mormons I speak to.

 

[philial]

Hm, just one short remark: I’ve thought that Calvin and Zwingli right from the beginning thought of the Eucharist being only symbolic?

I do know that Luther has believed his whole life in the Eucharist but Calvin and Zwingli?

in Christ,

No, calvin actually believed in a real presence. He rejected transubstantiation, mostly because the word itself was non-scriptural and based on aristotealian (therefore non-christian & pagan) ideas. However, he recognised the link between the last supper and the crucifixion. He condemned those who thought of holy communion as merely symbolic, but he didnt believe in the change of substace of the bread, nor did he believe that the presence remained after the celebration. He seemed to have a very concrete idea of Jesus being in heaaven, coming down into the bread, then returning to heaven afterwards. Quite strange, really.

However, A real presence, rather than THE real presence.

It’s been a while since I’ve read Calvin’s institutes (and the necessary commentaries!) and am unable to give chapter & verse, but I recall that few present followers of calvin actually give the Lord’s supper the place or respect that Calvin himself did!

 

[philial]

BTW, I’m currently reading ‘Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Holy Eucharist’ by Dr. Brant Pitre. It pretty much blows Calvin, Luther and the other pretenders out of the water. Yep, Rome has been bang on all along!

Reccommended reading!

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I am dripping with sincerity. I cannot for the life of me decide whether Mormons believe that atonement was based on the folly of the Cross as Paul says or some other gospel, not that there is another gospel, or an atonement in the garden of Gethsamane. Does anybody know for sure if Mormons teach atonement in the garden as opposed to the cross?

1. “We honor His birth. But without His death that birth would have been but one more birth. It was the redemption which He worked out in the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross of Calvary which made His gift immortal, universal, and everlasting,” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “A Season for Gratitude,” Ensign, Dec. 1997, p. 4 ).
2. D&C 19

18 Which asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

1. “Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind, even as many as will, shall be redeemed. The Savior began shedding His blood for all mankind, not on the cross but in the Garden of Gethsemane. There He took upon Himself the weight of the sins of all who would ever live. Under that [page 6] heavy load, He bled at every pore,” (Russell M. Nelson, “His Mission and Ministry,” New Era, Dec. 1999, p. 4, 6,
2. “Our church believes that Christ’s crucifixion was an important part of the atonement, but we believe that a more important part was when he suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane,” (“Q&A: Questions and Answers,” New Era, Sept. 1996, p. 18,

“It was then that his father taught young Paul a great lesson. He asked the ministers if they understood the principle of Christ’s atonement. They seemed a little puzzled. His father said, “In our Church, we believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel” (third article of faith). He explained that the atonement allows each of us to be forgiven of our sins if we repent. Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. As the only perfect person who ever lived on earth, He was the only one who could do this for us. We could not do it for ourselves. Without His sacrifice, we could never be forgiven of our sins and would not be able to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus again,” (Laurel Rohlfing, “Sharing Time: The Atonement,” Friend, Mar. 1989, p. 39

1. jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings/articles/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ

My objective is to try and introduce sources for consideration that seem to be never otherwise addressed when it comes to the Mormons.

We do believe that Jesus suffered much the pain of the sins of all men while in Gethsemane, but that does not change the obvious fact that the crucifixion was the key moment of the atonement. Jesus had to die – there was no other way. Not until he did on the cross was his work finished.

To say that Mormons believe that Jesus’ atonement was entirely finished in the garden of Gethsemane would be an misrepresentation of our doctrine.

Here are excerpts from our most representative hymn regarding the atonement:

I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,
Confused at the grace that so fully He proffers me;
I tremble to know that for me He was crucified,
That for me, a sinner, He suffered, He bled and died.

O it is wonderful that He should care for me
  Enough to die for me!
  O it is wonderful, wonderful to me!

… I think of His side, pierced and bleeding to pay the debt,

Does anyone seriously think that those aren’t references to the crucifixion?

Look, there are some significant differences between our religions, but this one is being manufactured. Don’t be deceived.

 

[CopticChristian]

We do believe that Jesus suffered much the pain of the sins of all men while in Gethsemane, but that does not change the obvious fact that the crucifixion was the key moment of the atonement. Jesus had to die – there was no other way. Not until he did on the cross was his work finished.

To say that Mormons believe that Jesus’ atonement was entirely finished in the garden of Gethsemane would be an misrepresentation of our doctrine.

Here are excerpts from our most representative hymn regarding the atonement:

Does anyone seriously think that those aren’t references to the crucifixion?

Look, there are some significant differences between our religions, but this one is being manufactured. Don’t be deceived.

Thank you, I have had no luck getty lefty to respond to anything. You have addressed the question and I will continue to learn.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Thank you, I have had no luck getty lefty to respond to anything. You have addressed the question and I will continue to learn.

You are very welcome. I’ll message you my email in case another question comes up when I’m not hanging around.

Your first quote from President Hinckley probably expresses the doctrine better than any of the others:

“We honor His birth. But without His death that birth would have been but one more birth. It was the redemption which He worked out in the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross of Calvary which made His gift immortal, universal, and everlasting,”

I believe that we both share the view that both Jesus’ suffering and His death were essential elements to the Atonement, right?

Essentially, our view is this: that the suffering inflicted by the crucifiers, i.e. bodily suffering, alone, would not have sufficed to pay the for all the sin in the world. Consider, for example, that the crucifixion itself involved sin, for which our Savior was paying the price! We believe that the bulk of His suffering was spiritual, and occurred in the garden, leading up to His bleeding at every pore.