I once asked about upraised hands during the "Our Father"

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Hound_Dog said:
This is the Catholic Church not any protestant denomination where there are novelties.
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How many novelties does it take to transform the Catholic Church into a Protestant one? A dozen? Six? Two or three? Just one?

Recall that the Stations of the Cross were once a novelity in Catholic Churches.
 
Hound_Dog said:
I have nothing to do with snake handling of any kind and certainly not as a religious practice.

WEll I don’t know anyone who is “snakehandling” as part of religious practice, as you call it… I only know one, namely the apostle Paul when he came to… where was it, Malta… he dealt with a snake which he shook off, like Jesus promised that the believers will be able to. Anyway, fact is, the way you spoke to me was so rude that I referred to dialoging with you as “snakehandling”, you being the snake…

You never did answer me. Are you a convert?

Yep, and I’m a happy one. But after what I’ve seen on this thread, I don’t think I’m gonna join your group. I’ve heard the traditionalists are legalistic and concerned with lesser things much more than with essentisal things… and well, you seem like a grumpy old person, alright.
When I envision Jesus in the Temple, I see a Man who uses his body to worship… like David did, and like the Jews do today. Do you know that the Jews today who believe in Jesus use their millenia-old custom of dancing in church?

You quoted something from the bible about raising of hands but the Bishops say differently. Does your quote apply to what goes on in the Mass? No. It doesn’t.

Well, give me a binding document quote where it states I am not allowed as a lay person to lift my hands a bit in receiving gesture when praying in Church, and I will obey, although I would not understand what is the fuss. until now I have never ever seen such a document… So its up to you to provide it here.

I’ll listen to the Bishops and I suggest you listen to the teachings of the Church instead of using your own interpretation.

Until now on this thread I have only seen the subjective rantings of a bitter person who would probably have died of shock if he had been present on the day of Pentecost. Yes, I said Pentecost again… I hope you don’t mind. It is after all a Catholic word.
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Splagchnizomai said:
Are we called to stop attending Mass because of novelties? Should we abandon parishes when parishoners hold hands during the OF?
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No, if anything it would be an opportunity to set a good example by following the true and traditional practices of the Church. But if it gets to the point where it is so distracting and unsettling that an individual cannot concentrate on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, then it might be time to look for a new parish. Not everyone will get to this point - I’m sure some can just ignore it and keep attending without any harm done.
 
Hound Dog, you got awfully quiet…
Whats wrong? You cant find that binding document?
 
My dear Brother Knight, let me tell you a little about my faith journey. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, family went to church faithfully and volunteered. I lost my faith in high school and stopped practicing and became an agnostic. To this day I am not entirely sure why. But it is starting to become apparent to me that it could have been due to abuses and the shallow faith of the Church leaders around me.

Eventually, God called to me quite distinctly and firmly. I knew that I must return home to His Church or burn forever in a Hell of my own making. My first parish was not to my liking. The community was liberal and the priests, though Dominican, were goofy and liturgically incorrect. Yet I burned with faith and just endured the abuses again. I joined the choir, even though my taste was decidedly leaning toward chant and venerable hymns, and sang their happy-clappy modern praise & worship music. I drifted to another parish where the situation was similar. I drifted to a distant Byzantine Catholic parish where I was enthralled by the mystery and reverence. I could have stayed here a long time if right liturgy was the most important thing in the world. However, the long commute and homesickness overcame me. I knew I belonged in the Latin Rite. I have never been to a Latin Mass. That is also far from me and alien to my own tradition.

Here is the end of my story. I made a short-distance move in the city and came to find my geographical parish. I found an orthodox pastor who leads an exemplary life. I found a small but faithful community of people who practice what they preach, obey the Church, and don’t badmouth it at every turn. I found right liturgy in the Ordinary Form, reverently practiced by priest and people alike. I am spiritually fed here and I don’t have to search.

But the one thing I come for, and the one thing that I missed in all those years of being away, was the Eucharist. I couldn’t bear to turn my back now on that precious gift. I would sit through a Clown Mass if that were the only way to receive Holy Communion.

You need to have priorities in life. Ask yourself if you’d let a few silly people stand between you and the Eucharist. It happened to me. Don’t make the same mistake.
 
Go to a TLM (search for groups like the FSSP in your area), or a more traditional oriented Novus Ordo parish.

But leaving Mass for a thing like that is not good.

Blessings!
 
mattkubes said:
We don’t just avoid certain things because they might invalidate the Mass or cause some other grave consequence. Riding your bike up the line to Communion wouldn’t invalidate the Mass, but it would be absurd to try it.

The point is that this gesture is one reserved for the clergy and it is a complete novelty on the part of the faithful to be doing it at that or any other point in the Mass.
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Well said, Matt! 👍

My main issue with the upraised/holding hands is that it can be a distraction to those who don’t do it, and can even make some uncomfortable if they don’t wish to participate (especially in parishes where everyone is encouraged to do it). Personally, I just close my eyes when I pray the Pater Noster, but for others, I can see how it could be an issue.
 
Interesting post, so far. It does tend to bring some emotion to the discussion. That being said; I must comment that I am a convert of 40+ years (1970 to be exact).

I, too, have been bothered by the same things that Hound dog is bothered by. Our previous Archbishop sent a letter to ALL parishes stating that we were not to use the “orans” postion or to hold hands during the Our Father. But nobody paid any attention to the Abp.

Since that time I have found the FSSP and several Diocesan TLM’s. So its a rare ocassion
when I’m at an OF Mass.

I have a strong affinity to the 1962 Mass because that is what attracted me to the Church prior to 1965. It took some time before I was ready to convert but I finally arrived only to find some strange happenings at Mass. Its been a Journey. 🙂
 
larsont7 said:
Well said, Matt! 👍

My main issue with the upraised/holding hands is that it can be a distraction to those who don’t do it, and can even make some uncomfortable if they don’t wish to participate (especially in parishes where everyone is encouraged to do it). Personally, I just close my eyes when I pray the Pater Noster, but for others, I can see how it could be an issue.
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Im sure we can all be distracted or feel uncomfortable about many tiny things that our brothers and sisters do, if we allow ourselves to go that way.
There are people who care endlessly about minor details like these while there are major issues around us - eg. a big group of unevangelised youth in almost every church, or the fact that some people go in and out of our churches being sick while no one ever dares to lay hands on them and pray for healing, or there are those who live in continuous sin by contracepting or watching porn etc, and many priests don’t ever wanna talk about sin and hell in their sermons, or when there is no fellowship and many feel isolated and alone in our churches.
There is a kind of people that fuss about someone’s dedicated gesture in church, but who seems to not care about any of these much more pressing issues.
It sounds like pharisaism… this fussing over small things, making a legalistic system out of every human activity, even sometimes exaggerating so much that there is little resemblance to the Gospels or the Catholic Church anymore.
The Scribes and Pharisees were anti-heroes because they had lost themselves in every little detail, caring not for the heart of man or the essential things. They even made extra laws to put as burdens on the converts they won.
But thank God we are free from that in Christ Jesus.
 
GraceDk, your last post reads as a false dichotomy.

I know various persons concerned with the crisis in its entirely, from lack of orthodoxy, orthopraxis, morals, the things you mentioned, etc.

Blessings!

🙂
 
CesarAugustus said:
GraceDk, your last post reads as a false dichotomy.

I know various persons concerned with the crisis in its entirely, from lack of orthodoxy, orthopraxis, morals, the things you mentioned, etc.

Blessings!

🙂
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So do I… however, a few of them seems to be too upset about these minor things compared to everything else… some even get angry during mass and want to leave. Is that really good? I dont think that is holy zeal anymore…

youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=PxxTG9Wo2-Y
This clip is from an African mass… I guess the OP will faint when he sees this. These people are celebrating a Catholic mass. I suppose they are in deep trouble… 😉
 
GraceDK said:
Im sure we can all be distracted or feel uncomfortable about many tiny things that our brothers and sisters do, if we allow ourselves to go that way.
There are people who care endlessly about minor details like these while there are major issues around us - eg. a big group of unevangelised youth in almost every church, or the fact that some people go in and out of our churches being sick while no one ever dares to lay hands on them and pray for healing, or there are those who live in continuous sin by contracepting or watching porn etc, and many priests don’t ever wanna talk about sin and hell in their sermons, or when there is no fellowship and many feel isolated and alone in our churches.
There is a kind of people that fuss about someone’s dedicated gesture in church, but who seems to not care about any of these much more pressing issues.
It sounds like pharisaism… this fussing over small things, making a legalistic system out of every human activity, even sometimes exaggerating so much that there is little resemblance to the Gospels or the Catholic Church anymore.
The Scribes and Pharisees were anti-heroes because they had lost themselves in every little detail, caring not for the heart of man or the essential things. They even made extra laws to put as burdens on the converts they won.
But thank God we are free from that in Christ Jesus.
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There’s a lot of stuff to respond to in this post, but I’ll point out just a couple things. First, I think it’s a misconception to think that churches that want reverent liturgies with few distractions aren’t also the ones preaching against sin, contraception, pornography, etc. I’d argue they do MORE of this kind of preaching, at least in my personal experience. Second, there is nothing Pharisee-like about wanting a solemn, reverent Mass where everyone can worship without distraction (of course, you’ll never get rid of ALL distractions, but it can at least be kept at a minimum). If the Church allowed parishioners to do whatever they wanted during the liturgy, there would be chaos.

As for the upraised/holding hands during the Our Father, I see this as a minor distraction, but one that is not in the rubrics and is not the liturgical norm (and, as pointed out already, reserved for the priest). I’m not out to condemn anyone that wishes to do so, but like I said, it could be considered a distraction to some.
 
larsont7 said:
There’s a lot of stuff to respond to in this post, but I’ll point out just a couple things. First, I think it’s a misconception to think that churches that want reverent liturgies with few distractions aren’t also the ones preaching against sin, contraception, pornography, etc. I’d argue they do MORE of this kind of preaching, at least in my personal experience. Second, there is nothing Pharisee-like about wanting a solemn, reverent Mass where everyone can worship without distraction (of course, you’ll never get rid of ALL distractions, but it can at least be kept at a minimum). If the Church allowed parishioners to do whatever they wanted during the liturgy, there would be chaos.

True, in some cases… I also believe in reverent masses. I dont like liturgical abuse. Last year I visited a church where I couldn’t even recignize the mass, and I didnt receive Communion because I didn’t know if it was valid or not.

As for the upraised/holding hands during the Our Father, I see this as a minor distraction, but one that is not in the rubrics and is not the liturgical norm (and, as pointed out already, reserved for the priest). I’m not out to condemn anyone that wishes to do so, but like I said, it could be considered a distraction to some.

**But there are also people who get distracted when people kneel at communion. Like, I once even had a priest who was angry on me for kneeling during and after communion. It irritated him. But I knew my rights. Some people have their own ideas. Some people think its holier than thou to wear a scarf during mass, so they are distracted because of the personal piety of one lady. Should she stop wearing the scarf? No, you would say. I dont see the difference if someone discreetly lifts their hands and faces moderately towards God… an inward expression which comes out in gesture, often even unconsciously done.

Everything we do, wear and say is bound to irritate someone somewhere.

The point is, the OP has of yet failed to give any binding document that states that one should not pray like that… what he gave was a generel guideline from a single parish somewhere in the States… It doesn’t rise to the level of disciplin for anyone outside that diocese, as far as I can see, if it even does that. Its only guidelines, good advice, but if he wished to raise it to doctrinal binding level on all faithful he might as well join Judaism. **
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I recall reading that lay people are not to do the orans posture at Mass. The priest is offering the Mass, we are not. It’s a dumb, copycat thing to do. It’s posturing.

–

I think large swathes of the Church have fallen for the superficial fun of Protestant-style worship: it’s noisier, jollier and you can work yourself up into an ecstacy.
 
Hound_Dog said:
Here, from a parish website, is the answer.

mqop.com/posturesandprocedures.html

There is much more on the link but the upraised hands thing gets to me. In my own Church people are doing it when the Priest says “peace be with you” and they reply with upraised hands “and with your spirit”

It is starting to have a pentecostal feeling to the masses.
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I understand how this bothers you. I don’t like it either. I generally close my eyes at that time. I have found some parishes have this more than others. As someone else said you could try to find a parish where it is the exception rather than the norm. It seems like you are talking about the little swoop of hands that happened when we say, “and with your spirit.” more than during the Our Father but I dislike both.

I have also seen where this tends to be something of a particular age group (and I won’t say which one), so I think maybe, and this is my prayer, it could die out as time goes on. From what I understand from the teens and the high school my son attends, none of them are interested in raising their hands or holding hands during the Our Father or doing the little swoop. Maybe it is different at other places but that is what I see.

I, also understand how it could be a distraction. I have seen people almost do a “wrestlers victory cheer” during the doxology. It is not an exaggeration, I saw this once, where a father raised his kids hands so high and they were all almost cheering and giggling. That is a distraction to others who are trying to pray.

Having said that, I wouldn’t leave the Eucharist. Been there, done that. Not a good thing.

Psalm 27:4 One thing I have asked of the Lord, this will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life. That I may see the delight of the Lord

🙂
GraceDK said:
Yep, and I’m a happy one. But after what I’ve seen on this thread, I don’t think I’m gonna join your group. I’ve heard the traditionalists are legalistic and concerned with lesser things much more than with essentisal things… and well, you seem like a grumpy old person, alright.
When I envision Jesus in the Temple, I see a Man who uses his body to worship… like David did, and like the Jews do today. Do you know that the Jews today who believe in Jesus use their millenia-old custom of dancing in church?
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There are times when people say things about other people, such as what you have heard about traditionalists and right away we believe them, but it really is better to not make such a quick judgement regarding someone based on rumors you have heard.
Plus there are certain legalistic things all Catholics should be concerned about. Just because someone has a problem with something he sees happening at mass does not make him a grumpy person. I hate to see someone called names when coming here to ask questions. :stretcher:

There might be some places where Jewish people dance in church, it might even be somewhere Catholic but then it would be a liturgical abuse as dancing is to be outside of the liturgy.
GraceDK said:
Until now on this thread I have only seen the subjective rantings of a bitter person who would probably have died of shock if he had been present on the day of Pentecost. Yes, I said Pentecost again… I hope you don’t mind. It is after all a Catholic word.
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I think if I was there at Pentecost I would have been in a pretty good state of awe; strong winds, tongues of fire, different languages, strong preaching.
GraceDK said:
youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=PxxTG9Wo2-Y
This clip is from an African mass… I guess the OP will faint when he sees this. These people are celebrating a Catholic mass. I suppose they are in deep trouble… 😉
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I don’t know if they would be in deep trouble, but they should be sure to be obeying the rubrics of the mass and then they wouldn’t have to worry about being in trouble at all. :signofcross:

Blessings. 🙂
 
Yes, it’s quite annoying. I’m not sure where it came from or how/why it became so widespread. I’ve literally never been anywhere where it wasn’t done. Perhaps part of the post V-II spirit of getting involved in Mass which somehow translated into aping the priest. I dunno.
 
Novelty???I don’t recall that at all. I don’t consider the Via Dolorosa a novelty at all–neither should you–actually, a little piece of history for you–medieval pilgrims who were well off financially would travel to the Holy Lands themselves to follow the Via Dolorosa—the poor were never able to make this pilgrimage–in addition, when the Turks closed access to the Holy Lands, nobody could make the pilgrimage—the Stations of the Cross as we know them today are an organic development over time of the faithful attempting to re-create the “sacred way”. Later on, the Franciscans developed the Stations of The Cross into what we know them as today.

And to answer your question, one novelty is too many. Apathy or indifference to these “novelties”, regardless of how minor they seem, is what has gotten us into this mess we have today. I reject all novelties, innovations, and modernists garbage that has some crept its way into our Church and The Mass.
Splagchnizomai said:
How many novelties does it take to transform the Catholic Church into a Protestant one? A dozen? Six? Two or three? Just one?

Recall that the Stations of the Cross were once a novelity in Catholic Churches.
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