I once asked about upraised hands during the "Our Father"

[thewanderer]

Absolutely. The point many trads bring up though is that many of the writers of the now-called Ordinary Form did not believe in Mass as a sacrifice at all, except in a very broad sense of spiritual sacrifice and a sacrifice of bread and wine. Not all believed Mass was a sacrifice in the sense of a re-presentation of Calvary, but merely a re-presentation of the Last Supper (a heterodox view, mind you). Their influence in the OF is apparent, and well documented (but hidden, thank goodness). Yes, they are still wrong, but undermining this fact is undermining the universality of the Church. Better yet, is the act of sacrifice conveyed to the assembly, or even to the priest? If not, then the universality of the rite (or specific celebration of) may be suspect.

lol this really is starting to get off topic. But I think its a fascinating discussion… so I hope the OP doesn’t mind me continuing…

I have never heard this claim before, that those who wrote the OF did not believve in the sacrificial nature of the Mass. I do not know whether or not this is true, and I am not going to accept it just because someone on the internet said so. But if you have sources for this feel free to pm me with them, if I have some spare time I would be interested in reading them. But I am still curious. I have grown up with the OF. I have also grown up knowing that it is the sacrifice of Christ both at the last supper and on the cross because both are the very same. This shows to me that there is nothing inherent in the OF that denies this aspect of the Mass, it merely places a different emphasis on the Mass. Which makes me wonder about your claim that the universality of the Rite would be suspecct simply because it places emphasis on a different aspect of the one same reality.

I think an even stronger way for me to put it is this. The universality comes from the validity of the Mass. If the Mass is valid then it really is that one sacrifice of Christ. Now, I am assuming that you did not mean to call into question the validity of the OF as the Church herself teaches that it is valid. I would argue, however, that so long as the Liturgy is valid then the universality of it cannot be suspect.

 

[sasg]

Here is what the Bishops of the United States say:

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/posture/orans-or-open-hand-prayer-posture.cfm

Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.

**Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?
**
No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[MissMarlene]

Here, from a parish website, is the answer.

mqop.com/posturesandprocedures.html

There is much more on the link but the upraised hands thing gets to me. In my own Church people are doing it when the Priest says “peace be with you” and they reply with upraised hands “and with your spirit”

It is starting to have a pentecostal feeling to the masses.

I have read through most of this thread, and I think there is such a bad atmosphere here. Especially from you and some of the posters who agree with you. It is like you hate Pentecostals, Protestants (you use these like a bad word) and dislike converts and it is like you attribute the worst intentions to your fellow Catholics in Church.
I don’t know if the moderators warn people when they start to attack others and slander other Christians (who cannot defend themselves here) ?
I believe in free debate but I hope you will change your tone because it lacks charity.

 

[Irishgal49]

Good idea Lorrie. Since you cannot keep your peace in a mass where people hold hands, you indeed should leave and join another mass where people share your sentiment.
I myself like holding hands with others. It gives a tangible feeling of a unity that we desperately need… what is interesting is that sharing Holy Communion is a much more intimate act with the Body of Christ - each other - than holding the hand of your neighbour during a prayer.

Who said anything about “keeping my peace”??? I was abused as a kid, maybe it’s a little thing to you but I don’t like being forced to touch someone against my will…and it’s something that’s not supposed to be done. I’m so tired of people doing things that are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE DONE in Mass and then telling us who call them on it that we’re being stuffed shirts and robots. I think the person who complained about that needs to be the one to go somewhere else. I love my Church and would like to preserve it’s worship and traditions. We are not Protestants and need to remember that. This “it’s all about me and the way I want it” is not the way worship is supposed to be. We have traditions, rules, guidelines for a reason. I used to attend Latin Mass and it’s beautiful. I am tired of the way mass is being “changed” by people who seem to think that it’s OK to do so.

 

[Irishgal49]

I have read through most of this thread, and I think there is such a bad atmosphere here. Especially from you and some of the posters who agree with you. It is like you hate Pentecostals, Protestants (you use these like a bad word) and dislike converts and it is like you attribute the worst intentions to your fellow Catholics in Church.
I don’t know if the moderators warn people when they start to attack others and slander other Christians (who cannot defend themselves here) ?
I believe in free debate but I hope you will change your tone because it lacks charity.

It lacks charity how??? Aren’t we free to say we don’t like something that is clearly not supposed to be done in Mass? It is not supposed to be done, flat out. If we were saying something that is contrary to Catholic teaching and tradition then something should be done, but you want people dressed down when they are upholding the teachings of the Catholic church?! REALLY??

It seems charity should be about doing what the Church teaches and not having an “anything goes” attitude. So we should be silenced and sanctioned because we uphold the traditions of the church??? Is that what you’re saying? There’s no lack of charity in saying they don’t want our masses to become a “do whatever you want” free-for-all. There are lots of denominations that are into this style of worship, attend there and jump around and shriek like a howler monkey if that’s what you want…leave the Catholic Church alone and stop saying that those who uphold her traditions should be banned for having a “bad attitude”.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Why would the Mass be focused on Calvary instead of the Last Supper?

I understood the Mass to have originated with the Last Supper, when Jesus said to “do this in remembrance of Me.”

What am I missing? Do raising of the hands change whether the focus is on LS or Calvary – or is it a parallel topic?

Alan

 

[sasg]

I’m so tired of people doing things that are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE DONE in Mass

See my quote above. In the United States, the orans position during the Our Father is not “supposed to be done”, but neither is it “not supposed to be done”; according to the USCCB, “no position is prescribed”. Your local diocese or parish may have different requirements, prohibitions, or customs, but there is no general prohibition on the orans position during the Our Father in the United States.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

See my quote above. In the United States, the orans position during the Our Father is not “supposed to be done”, but neither is it “not supposed to be done”; according to the USCCB, “no position is prescribed”. Your local diocese or parish may have different requirements, prohibitions, or customs, but there is no general prohibition on the orans position during the Our Father in the United States.

Next topic?

 

[Irishgal49]

The upraised hands is not ONLY during the OUR FATHER now. Whenever the response “and with your spirit” is said more and more are doing it.

I am 58 and I wonder if I will live long enough to see people speaking in tongues during mass.

Not as long as those of us who don’t want to become Protestant Pentecostals are around.

 

[Irishgal49]

Hm, I don’t know what you mean by a “cue of music or a minister”… everyone knowing that the body gestures that Catholics do at church are the most controlled an on-cue of all christians. You stand, sing, kneel, answer, and bow your head and make the cross precisely when and where its prescribed, whether you are conscious or not, during mass.

You say the lifting of hands has always been private jesture, although I have proven by means of the Bible that the early Christians did this, and I have shown by videos from Africa, and through my own experience, that people have done and continue to do this throughout history.
Some people don’t like the culture of old and they dont like certain present cultures… Especially the Catholics that call themselves traditional… But we live in a globalised world, and you cannot control the African or the Middle Eastern or the other people that come into your mass, and who unintentionally irritate your ego.

As of yet no single quote has been given on this thread by a binding Church document where its written that a lay person may not use his hands moderately in prayer during Mass… there has been a lot of fuss, but no clear evidence. Only interpretations made subjectively by - seeminly - anti-charismatic Catholics.

I once took a young non-believer with me to a Catholic Mass. You know what he said when he came out? He said: “You all looked like robots in there. Can you please take me to a church where people don’t look like robots?”

Now THAT irritated me… and it wasn’t him, but the robotic stone faced Catholics that irritated me… Normally I don’t get irritated through. I suppose that the stone-faces had good intentions and true worship in their hearts. Maybe you guys can also learn to think better of your brothers and sisters in Christ, instead of calling them “apers of priests”, and “self-gratifying”, “emotion seeking” abusers of the Mass.

Anti-charasmatic and proud of it. I love being accused of being a robot…that means everyone was following mass the way it’s meant to be in unity. Not a free for all.

 

[santoaugustine]

Thank you Rich–that is exactly what I was talking about.

True, but let’s not let that become a strawman. It was about as dominant within the approved Roman Catholic liturgies as the Pauline Mass is now, which is to say it encompassed nearly all the laity.

So don’t get hung up on that. I think the universality he speaks of is in the similarity of the traditional Mass wherever it was prayed. And there is a lot to be said for that. I’ve been to Mass in several foreign countries, and in the old days with my little hand missal I could have followed them all perfectly.

I remember reading about a British atheist, a communist, who was bedridden on Christmas eve one year in the late 40s, I think. He turned on the radio and heard Christmas Midnight Mass broadcast on the AM and kept turning the dial, from Prague, to Budapest, to Rome, Paris, and he said it was almost as if he never changed stations. He later converted, being drawn to that great unity of mankind he found in the Church.

It’s a strength of the old Mass, there’s no denying it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Anti-charasmatic and proud of it.

This comes over as divisive, dualistic, self-righteous, clinging to group identity, and more-Catholic-than-thou. Is that what you intended?

If you say you are against charismatic display at Mass, there’s nothing wrong with that.

But the way you have worded it here, you had better do an awfully good job of following all of the laws of behavior, because you already have your reward. Your pride is your reward. I hope you enjoy it, and have a nice day!

When you’re ready for actual spiritual growth, follow the teachings of Jesus rather than the prevailing Badattitudes. If you’re happy with where you are, then ignore me and I either way I say, more power to you!

Alan

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Did you read my post thoroughly? I said that the modern Stations of the Cross as we know them today are an organic development of the medieval pilgrims who wished to re-create the Via Dolorosa for all those who could not afford to travel and follow the Via Dolorosa themselves and later when the Turks closed off the city and nobody could make the pilgrimage–throughout time, the re-creations, with great influence by the Franciscans, developed into what we now have today in our Catholic Churches. What part of what I said contradicts the history of how the stations came about?

Yes–I am a Gregorian Chant kind of man–I don’t like polyphony and I do not care for a piano over an organ. I also don’t have a lot of patience for Catholics who believe that Church History and Tradition can only be traced back to Vatican II.

Yes, I read your post thoroughly about “organic development,” an interesting perspective, but it doesn’t discount the fact that having Stations erected in Chruch is a rather recent development.

You do have much to learn about Church History before and after VII concerning what you consider to be novelities and innovations – as well as what the Church allows and doesn’t allow, even if it offends your personal standards (which is a very modernist position to adopt imo, though I can’t really be sure if you really have an accurate grasp of what Modernism is – it’s not just anything you happen to disagree with). Best of luck with your continued studies and understanding of Church History, and may God bless you and Mary keep you.

I think I’ve done my fair share of derailing this rather silly thread. Mea culpa. Over and out!

 

[figs]

I’m not really into the palms raised durring the Our Father and definately not thrilled with holding hands!

When I go to Mass and I’m engrossed in my prayer with God. If you feel compelled to raise your palms when you pray, fine, I’m not really paying any attention to you anyway.

But if we’re going to be insitant about holding hands then it’s time for me to find another parish because I prefer not to participate in that sort of worship.

As far as my opinion, I think the palms raised is silly and the holding hands even more so. I wish it didn’t happen but since it does, I just ignore it, I have no interest in it.

 

[Rich_C]

Why would the Mass be focused on Calvary instead of the Last Supper?

I understood the Mass to have originated with the Last Supper, when Jesus said to “do this in remembrance of Me.”

What am I missing? Do raising of the hands change whether the focus is on LS or Calvary – or is it a parallel topic?

Alan

Traditionally, the Mass is considered to be a mystical re-presentation of the Crucifixion. Christ, through the person of the priest, makes two separate consecrations, symbolizing the separation of His Body and Blood during His physical death on the cross. He then offers himself to the Father just as He did on the cross. That’s why it’s called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; the Mass is identified primarily with calvary.

The Last Supper is an important, secondary image associate with the Mass, but the Sacrifice is the primary one. If you read the text of the Roman Canon and other parts of the 1962 missal, this is very evident.

 

[clem456]

I’m not really into the palms raised durring the Our Father and definately not thrilled with holding hands!

When I go to Mass and I’m engrossed in my prayer with God. If you feel compelled to raise your palms when you pray, fine, I’m not really paying any attention to you anyway.

But if we’re going to be insitant about holding hands then it’s time for me to find another parish because I prefer not to participate in that sort of worship.

As far as my opinion, I think the palms raised is silly and the holding hands even more so. I wish it didn’t happen but since it does, I just ignore it, I have no interest in it.

I don’t necessarily agree with you on the value of joining hands, but this is a good common sense attitude.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I’m not really into the palms raised durring the Our Father and definately not thrilled with holding hands!

When I go to Mass and I’m engrossed in my prayer with God. If you feel compelled to raise your palms when you pray, fine, I’m not really paying any attention to you anyway.

But if we’re going to be insitant about holding hands then it’s time for me to find another parish because I prefer not to participate in that sort of worship.

As far as my opinion, think the palms raised is silly and the holding hands even more so. I wish it didn’t happen but since it does, I just ignore it, I have no interest in it.

Good post Figs. I really agree. I am not into it either and when it comes to raised hands I can close my eyes and continue to pray but the holding hands. If that became insistant I would have to find a different parish also, fortunately for me right now we only have a few families that do it.

The other thing people don’t think about when they insist on hand holding is it is an invasion of an individuals personal space. Some might bawk at that but people truly have this personal space that they guard, some have less, some have more.

 

[thewanderer]

Traditionally, the Mass is considered to be a mystical re-presentation of the Crucifixion. Christ, through the person of the priest, makes two separate consecrations, symbolizing the separation of His Body and Blood during His physical death on the cross. He then offers himself to the Father just as He did on the cross. That’s why it’s called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; the Mass is identified primarily with calvary.

The Last Supper is an important, secondary image associate with the Mass, but the Sacrifice is the primary one. If you read the text of the Roman Canon and other parts of the 1962 missal, this is very evident.

My question is why does it matter which is focused on as they are both ultimately the one same event?

 

[Rich_C]

My question is why does it matter which is focused on as they are both ultimately the one same event?

The Church must have its reasons for consistently emphasizing the Sacrice over the Meal. My reasoning tells me that because the Sacrifice on the Cross is the foundation of our salvation, it deserves the more prominent place. Also, my experience of the Mass has been very different since I started praying with this theology in mind. Before I thought the Mass was just about Our Lord offering Himself to us. That’s still true, but now I see the more important thing, which is Our Lord continually offering Himself to the Father for our sake. The Church sees that latter offers as more important, and the Council of Trent made a lot of statements about it, like how grace is poured out on people at Mass even when they don’t receive Holy Communion, because just being at Mass is being mystically at the foot of the cross.

 

[Melchior_1]

There was a thread in here not too long ago where people who were advocating saying the Rosary during Mass, that saying a private devotion during a public liturgy was acceptable. This despite the public external act that could show they aren’t investing fully in the Mass.

If the perception is wrong there, that there’s nothing externally wrong with that and they are investing in the Mass fully, perhaps the perception of that some have with raising of the hands is off too.