I once asked about upraised hands during the "Our Father"

[jam070406]

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus corrected the Pharisees teaching that personal holiness was measured in frequency or piety in worship. Jesus taught that our holiness would be measured in how we treat each other.

To a Jew in the first century, worship was sacrifice, and it took place in one spot on earth, the Temple in Jerusalem. It was so important that Jewish males were commanded to go up to the temple three times each year and offer sacrifice. To a Jew at the time of Jesus, offering sacrifice at the temple was the most important thing he would do in his life.

Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:23-24)

In light of the importance of temple worship, Jesus’ words were radical, and caused no small controversy. If we have wronged anyone, we are to go make it right first, and only then were we to approach God and offer worship. Jesus was reordering priorities, teaching us that how you treat other people comes before worshipping God, and that our worship is not acceptable to God if we go around treating people like garbage. This is only one example from the Sermon on the Mount of Jesus’ teaching on the measure of personal holiness being how we treat other people.

King David, one thousand years prior, understood this intuitiively.

For you do not desire sacrifice or I would give it;
a burnt offering you would not accept.
My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit;
a contrite, humbled heart, O God, you will not scorn.
Then you will desire the sacrifices of the just,
burnt offering and whole offerings;
then they will offer up young bulls on your altar.
(Psalm 51:18-19,21)

David knew that his sin of an affair with a married woman and murder of her husband was a personal insult to God, and that God would not accept his worship until he was truly sorry for his sins, and until he made it right to the extent that he was able.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well." (Matthew 5:38-39)

That’s Jesus’ rabbinical teaching formula right there. Jesus quotes the Old Testament law about what it means to be holy (You have heard that it was said) and then gives the new law about how we are to treat each other (But I say to you).

The Law of Moses specified what righteous behavior was. If you obeyed the Law of Moses, you were righteous and holy, you were perfect. If you did not obey the Law of Moses, you were a sinner. It was that simple. Jesus corrects this thinking, and his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is given to us for this one purpose, to teach us that he will judge us not on how we worship or on how we obey commandments, but on how we love each other.

That’s what holiness is. It is loving your enemy. It is loving the person who wants to kill you. The Pope could change the rubrics tomorrow with the stroke of his pen. Holiness is not following the rubrics. Whether you kneel during the Angus Dei or not is not a measure of holiness. Holiness is treating other human beings with dignity, and respect, and loving each other more than we love ourselves. That’s what holineness is.

-Tim-

So you’re saying that people that desire a more Holy atmosphere and reverent worship directed towards their Savior are like Pharisees that are incapable of loving their neighbor?

 

[CesarAugustus]

The funny thing, is that Pharisaism can happen everywhere, even in the “community focused” places.

Blessings!

 

[clem456]

So you’re saying that people that desire a more Holy atmosphere and reverent worship directed towards their Savior are like Pharisees that are incapable of loving their neighbor?

I think you may have missed the point…

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I am not a “hand-holder”, unless I am with my family or a particular group of friends where it is “our tradition”, so if I am at Mass with them, I hold hands.

I am, however, one of those people who uses the “orans” position, kind of.

When I am at Mass alone, I hold my hands about waist level, palms facing up.
And this is why- prayer is a gift. In oreder to recieve a gift, we must open our hands.
You can’t give a gift with tightly clasped hands either.

So as I offer my prayers to the Father, I will do so with “open hands”, so that not only can I give to God what I need to, I can receive from Him what I need.
It all seems very simple to me, and why would anyone want to tell me “not” to do so?

 

[CB_Catholic]

So you’re saying that people that desire a more Holy atmosphere and reverent worship directed towards their Savior are like Pharisees that are incapable of loving their neighbor?

I don’t recall reading anything like that in the post. I would say you have totally missed the point, unless you really got it, but wanted to stir the pot a bit.

 

[pete_29]

I always figured that when you pray in Church, a person should just bow their heads and pray. It seems to me that all this hand holding and arm raising just makes the person doing it the focus of attention. It’s just my opinion and I have nothing against people who these things. It just seems silly to me when just closing your eyes and bowing your head in prayer ought to be sufficient.

 

[Elizium23]

I always figured that when you pray in Church, a person should just bow their heads and pray. It seems to me that all this hand holding and arm raising just makes the person doing it the focus of attention. It’s just my opinion and I have nothing against people who these things. It just seems silly to me when just closing your eyes and bowing your head in prayer ought to be sufficient.

It’s a good sentiment. But bowing of the head is a specific gesture that is reserved for certain things in the OF Mass; while it’s not incorrect to bow your head when you pray at other times, it makes it inconvenient or at least inobvious when you are supposed to bow your head at the prescribed times.

275. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bow: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.

a) A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.

In the dioceses of the USA, a bow of the head is also the prescribed gesture of reverence for the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion.

 

[pete_29]

It’s a good sentiment. But bowing of the head is a specific gesture that is reserved for certain things in the OF Mass; while it’s not incorrect to bow your head when you pray at other times, it makes it inconvenient or at least inobvious when you are supposed to bow your head at the prescribed times.

In the dioceses of the USA, a bow of the head is also the prescribed gesture of reverence for the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion.

My point is that all this gesturing to me silently screams, “Look how holy I am”. I guess I’m just stuck in my ways.

 

[Elizium23]

My point is that all this gesturing to me silently screams, “Look how holy I am”. I guess I’m just stuck in my ways.

Which gesturing? The prescribed gestures written into the liturgical law of the Mass, in the General Instruction? Or the gestures that have been organically introduced by the faithful? Or both?

 

[pete_29]

Which gesturing? The prescribed gestures written into the liturgical law of the Mass, in the General Instruction? Or the gestures that have been organically introduced by the faithful? Or both?

I’m talking about things I haven’t seen at Mass before a few years ago, like putting forth the hands when saying, " And with your spirit." I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m just saying it doesn’t seem necessary unless one is trying to attract attention to themselves. That’s the way I see things. Sorry

 

[thewanderer]

I’m talking about things I haven’t seen at Mass before a few years ago, like putting forth the hands when saying, " And with your spirit." I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m just saying it doesn’t seem necessary unless one is trying to attract attention to themselves. That’s the way I see things. Sorry

Its just a different way of praying.

This reminds me a lot of the women veiling debate. Many women veil as a personal devotion, yet to many others it just comes off as a ‘holier-than-thou’ gesture and to still others they don’t veil, even though they would like to and would find it helpful, because they are too afraid of being perceived as ‘holier-than-thou’. Their comes a point when people need to forget about what others think of them and do what is best for themselves in their spiritual journey. As for those that make such judgements about the interior dispostition from the externals they see, they need to make an effort to remember that even though it may seem as though someone has a bad motivation or intention, that is not necessarily true at all and we must leave all such judgements the one true Judge and instead focus on becomingholy ourselves.

 

[pete_29]

Its just a different way of praying.

This reminds me a lot of the women veiling debate. Many women veil as a personal devotion, yet to many others it just comes off as a ‘holier-than-thou’ gesture and to still others they don’t veil, even though they would like to and would find it helpful, because they are too afraid of being perceived as ‘holier-than-thou’. Their comes a point when people need to forget about what others think of them and do what is best for themselves in their spiritual journey. As for those that make such judgements about the interior dispostition from the externals they see, they need to make an effort to remember that even though it may seem as though someone has a bad motivation or intention, that is not necessarily true at all and we must leave all such judgements the one true Judge and instead focus on becomingholy ourselves.

Very True

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

No one can see how holy you are in a public ritual. You can only supply the signs of it, as a demonstration of intent. You can set the stage. How the new order of mass is said is too distracting; the priest is under more pressure to perform and so are the laity. And then you have those laity who like being demonstrative at Mass.

**You can’t complain about casual behaviour at Mass and at the same time defend the changes. One goes with the other. Adding mundane signs to the mass (lay lectors in street clothes) and removing religious ones (like altar rails) works against creating religious awe. **

I call it the ‘modernist mindwarp’: do things which work against your stated intent and then defend them against the ‘Pharisees’, who are scratching their heads at it all.

 

[clem456]

No one can see how holy you are in a public ritual. You can only supply the signs of it, as a demonstration of intent. You can set the stage. How the new order of mass is said is too distracting; the priest is under more pressure to perform and so are the laity. And then you have those laity who like being demonstrative at Mass.

**You can’t complain about casual behaviour at Mass and at the same time defend the changes. One goes with the other. Adding mundane signs to the mass (lay lectors in street clothes) and removing religious ones (like altar rails) works against creating religious awe. **

I call it the ‘modernist mindwarp’: do things which work against your stated intent and then defend them against the ‘Pharisees’, who are scratching their heads at it all.

You may be missing the point about Pharissaic attitudes. The Pharissaic attitude equates holiness with external form, as opposed to the disposition of a person’s heart.There’s a certain measure of judgementalism involved. If we are looking at the priest to judge what degree of pressure he is under to “entertain us”, or judging how demonstrative the laity is, or judging whether their hands are in the right position, how can we be tending to our own humility and holiness? How well do we participate in the Mass if we are so concerned with the worship of others? What is our first responsibility as a Christian? Is it to reform the faults of others, or to reform ourselves first? Whose position is it to judge the degree of a person’s holiness? As a Catholic, I accept final authority of the Church on these issues.

The clothes do NOT make the man, or Bernie Madoff would perhaps be considered virtuous.
The clothes can be a sign of who the man is, but they are incidental to his interior disposition. So it is with lifting the hands or wearing sandals. That being said, I am all for setting a good example of reverent dress and behavior at Mass, so thanks to you for doing so.

 

[Stylites]

You may be missing the point about Pharissaic attitudes. The Pharissaic attitude equates holiness with external form, as opposed to the disposition of a person’s heart.There’s a certain measure of judgementalism involved. If we are looking at the priest to judge what degree of pressure he is under to “entertain us”, or judging how demonstrative the laity is, or judging whether their hands are in the right position, how can we be tending to our own humility and holiness? How well do we participate in the Mass if we are so concerned with the worship of others? What is our first responsibility as a Christian? Is it to reform the faults of others, or to reform ourselves first? Whose position is it to judge the degree of a person’s holiness? As a Catholic, I accept final authority of the Church on these issues.

The clothes do NOT make the man, or Bernie Madoff would perhaps be considered virtuous.
The clothes can be a sign of who the man is, but they are incidental to his interior disposition. So it is with lifting the hands or wearing sandals. That being said, I am all for setting a good example of reverent dress and behavior at Mass, so thanks to you for doing so.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Who’s judging anyone? I’d like a mass said with all the features our forefathers thought Godly. I don’t agree with the current fashion for minimalism. It’s too close to iconoclasm.

A mass is an attempt to bring Heaven to Earth. Introducing CITH, altar girls, handshakes and ripping out altar rails only work if you have changed your idea about what a mass is and is for.

Heaven on earth.
The Holy Sacrifice.
A 1920’s Missa Cantata

The fast forward to today in your rural Church.

 

[jam070406]

You may be missing the point about Pharissaic attitudes. The Pharissaic attitude equates holiness with external form, as opposed to the disposition of a person’s heart.There’s a certain measure of judgementalism involved. If we are looking at the priest to judge what degree of pressure he is under to “entertain us”, or judging how demonstrative the laity is, or judging whether their hands are in the right position, how can we be tending to our own humility and holiness? How well do we participate in the Mass if we are so concerned with the worship of others? What is our first responsibility as a Christian? Is it to reform the faults of others, or to reform ourselves first? Whose position is it to judge the degree of a person’s holiness? As a Catholic, I accept final authority of the Church on these issues.

The clothes do NOT make the man, or Bernie Madoff would perhaps be considered virtuous.
The clothes can be a sign of who the man is, but they are incidental to his interior disposition. So it is with lifting the hands or wearing sandals. That being said, I am all for setting a good example of reverent dress and behavior at Mass, so thanks to you for doing so.

We could also say that those that disrupt others with immodest dress, ad libbing, chewing gum, chatting etc. are harboring a rebellious attitude that distract others that are attempting to work on their inner disposition.

 

[jam070406]

Who’s judging anyone? I’d like a mass said with all the features our forefathers thought Godly. I don’t agree with the current fashion for minimalism. It’s too close to iconoclasm.

A mass is an attempt to bring Heaven to Earth. Introducing CITH, altar girls, handshakes and ripping out altar rails only work if you have changed your idea about what a mass is and is for.

Heaven on earth.
The Holy Sacrifice.
A 1920’s Missa Cantata

The fast forward to today in your rural Church.

Try as some might I’m not guilted by the Pharisee insult. The whole idea that I wanna do what I wanna do and if you object you’re like a Pharisee. It’s the same argument Protestants use to tear down the Church.

 

[TimothyH]

So you’re saying that people that desire a more Holy atmosphere and reverent worship directed towards their Savior are like Pharisees that are incapable of loving their neighbor?

The question at hand was holiness, and how to define it. Jesus gives us a correct understanding of holiness in the Sermon on the Mount, and in many other places in the Gospels.

A reverent atmosphere for worship is laudable, excellent even, but it does not define our holiness in God’s eyes. Worship does not make us righteous.

We owe God worship because of who He is and who we are - God is the creator and we are the creatures whom he has created. We owe God worship, and when we worship in a reverent way, we give God what we owe him. But if worshipping God is all we do, no matter how much reverence we hold in our heart or in our actions, if all we do is worship at Mass, then all we have given to God is the absolute minimum owed to him, that which is his in the first place by right, and we are like the unprofitable servant who buried his master’s money. .

Mass is just the beginning. Worship is our minimum obligation. The word Mass means “to send forth”. Those are the last words of the Mass. Ite, missa est. Go forth or be sent. We are supposed to bear fruit in love.

Jesus corrects the Pharisees understanding of holiness as how you worship God, and tells them that if they treat people like garbage then their worship is an abomination to God. We are supposed to bear fruit, and it is not the worship that makes us holy, but how we treat each other.

That was the question; what makes us holy. Worship does not make us holy.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Try as some might I’m not guilted by the Pharisee insult. The whole idea that I wanna do what I wanna do and if you object you’re like a Pharisee. It’s the same argument Protestants use to tear down the Church.

No one accused anyone of being a Pharisee.

The question was holiness. Mass does not make you holy. How you treat other people makes you holy.

No one insulted anyone, or called anyone a pharisee. The question was what makes one holy. Mass does not make you holy in God’s eyes.

-Tim-