I once asked about upraised hands during the "Our Father"

[TimothyH]

My point is that all this gesturing to me silently screams, “Look how holy I am”. I guess I’m just stuck in my ways.

How I pray to and converse with my Lord and Savior is my own business.

If you were praying like you ought, you wouldn’t be paying attention to anyone else.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Who’s judging anyone? I’d like a mass said with all the features our forefathers thought Godly. I don’t agree with the current fashion for minimalism. It’s too close to iconoclasm.

A mass is an attempt to bring Heaven to Earth. Introducing CITH, altar girls, handshakes and ripping out altar rails only work if you have changed your idea about what a mass is and is for.

Heaven on earth.
The Holy Sacrifice.
A 1920’s Missa Cantata

The fast forward to today in your rural Church.

Benedicine monks have been celebrating Mass without an altar rail, while gathered around a freestanding altar for 1600 years.

Pictures of a church where such Masses were celebrated since 1057 are here.

-Tim-

 

[jam070406]

The question at hand was holiness, and how to define it. Jesus gives us a correct understanding of holiness in the Sermon on the Mount, and in many other places in the Gospels.

A reverent atmosphere for worship is laudable, excellent even, but it does not define our holiness in God’s eyes. Worship does not make us righteous.

We owe God worship because of who He is and who we are - God is the creator and we are the creatures whom he has created. We owe God worship, and when we worship in a reverent way, we give God what we owe him. But if worshipping God is all we do, no matter how much reverence we hold in our heart or in our actions, if all we do is worship at Mass, then all we have given to God is the absolute minimum owed to him, that which is his in the first place by right, and we are like the unprofitable servant who buried his master’s money. .

Mass is just the beginning. Worship is our minimum obligation. The word Mass means “to send forth”. Those are the last words of the Mass. Ite, missa est. Go forth or be sent. We are supposed to bear fruit in love.

Jesus corrects the Pharisees understanding of holiness as how you worship God, and tells them that if they treat people like garbage then their worship is an abomination to God. We are supposed to bear fruit, and it is not the worship that makes us holy, but how we treat each other.

That was the question; what makes us holy. Worship does not make us holy.

-Tim-

If you were able to read the inner hearts of people, like Jesus could with the Pharisees then you may have a point. But you can’t so you don’t.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Benedicine monks have been celebrating Mass without an altar rail, while gathered around a freestanding altar for 1600 years.

Pictures of a church where such Masses were celebrated since 1057 are here.

-Tim-

Yeah, this change was done there and then and that change was done there and then.

That’s no excuse for all of the changes that have occurred here and now, all at once, in diocesan churches.

The trick only works until someone brings up something like Cranmer’s Godly Mass by Michael Davis. We see where we could go. We hear many Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence any more. MIght be an idea if they stopped handling it, for a start.

Do we still think Protestants have something we don’t, is that it? We want the fellowship and the easy-going attitude to discipline?

 

[clem456]

If you were able to read the inner hearts of people, like Jesus could with the Pharisees then you may have a point. But you can’t so you don’t.

Irony of ironies…that is the point. That’s the whole point in minding your own soul at Mass.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

We hear many Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence any more. Might be an idea if they stopped handling it, for a start.

It would be challenging to prove that changes in litugical form of worship are directly causal of a lack of belief in the Real Presence.

I’m no fan of overt modernism, and certainly do not condone abuses and near abuses that were consequences of the so-called Spirit of Vatican II, but again it would be hard to prove that this alone has let to a lack of belief.

What about secular influence in general? What about the lack of proper catechesis in a more permissive environment and age?

Removal of altar rails, etc. did not directly lead to a lack of belief in the Real Presence. Even though I’m an Eastern Catholic, my siblings and I attended Catholic schools and received religious education through the 70s and 80s. I can tell you that I never even heard the term Real Presence in the course of that formal education. Why was that?

However, when we had Mass during school hours in the very modern, lightly adorned gymnasium style church which never appealed to me asthetically even as a youngster, the senior pastor of that church somehow always managed to make sure that some 500 kids ages 5 - 13 knew they were, indeed, in church. Despite being a priest in this era and in this type of setting, he still knew what the Mass was and how to properly and effectively project this to a large group of young Catholics, irrespective of form and surroundings.

 

[jam070406]

Irony of ironies…that is the point. That’s the whole point in minding your own soul at Mass.

And again… you assert that people who object to novelties aren’t.
So right back atcha with the irony.

 

[clem456]

And again… you assert that people who object to novelties aren’t.
So right back atcha with the irony.

Let’s be accurate. Thread after thread goes by on this forum with “traditionalists” criticising the worship practices of other Catholics, priests, music ministers, and parishes. The practices are called less holy, less grace filled and other things. The music is deride as banal. There is no moral high ground for this position. It is petty, divisive and not Catholic.

 

[pete_29]

How I pray to and converse with my Lord and Savior is my own business.

If you were praying like you ought, you wouldn’t be paying attention to anyone else.

-Tim-

Hey Tim! Lighten up! I’m just saying I wouldn’t pray like that. Personal preference. It is a bit distracting though. Try not to read so much into my posts!

 

[thewanderer]

It would be challenging to prove that changes in litugical form of worship are directly causal of a lack of belief in the Real Presence.

I’m no fan of overt modernism, and certainly do not condone abuses and near abuses that were consequences of the so-called Spirit of Vatican II, but again it would be hard to prove that this alone has let to a lack of belief.

What about secular influence in general? What about the lack of proper catechesis in a more permissive environment and age?

Removal of altar rails, etc. did not directly lead to a lack of belief in the Real Presence. Even though I’m an Eastern Catholic, my siblings and I attended Catholic schools and received religious education through the 70s and 80s. I can tell you that I never even heard the term Real Presence in the course of that formal education. Why was that?

However, when we had Mass during school hours in the very modern, lightly adorned gymnasium style church which never appealed to me asthetically even as a youngster, the senior pastor of that church somehow always managed to make sure that some 500 kids ages 5 - 13 knew they were, indeed, in church. Despite being a priest in this era and in this type of setting, he still knew what the Mass was and how to properly and effectively project this to a large group of young Catholics, irrespective of form and surroundings.

Thank you for that.

RdC, I put this on another thread, I don’t know if you were reading it or not, but I grew up with the OF Mass, in English, without chant, with 30 min max Masses, pretty much everybody dressed casually, yet I still grew up in this setting with a complete knowledge of what the Mass was about, that it is the Sacrifice of Calvary made present again to us today, that the centre of it all is Christ in the Eucharist, that reverence is extremely important because of all this etc etc. In fact, I found the Mass I attended to be very spiritually enriching for me. Because of this I find the claims that people have to return to exactly the way things were because otherwise they willl be led astray and become unfaithful Catholics absolutely ridiculous. The point was that I received solid catechesis from my mother as I grew up. The faith was reinforced at home so that we knew what it was all about. The problem is not all of the changes (slthough some of them are, perhaps, problematic) it is the lack of solid catechesis coming from the home.

 

[jam070406]

Let’s be accurate. Thread after thread goes by on this forum with “traditionalists” criticising the worship practices of other Catholics, priests, music ministers, and parishes. The practices are called less holy, less grace filled and other things. The music is deride as banal. There is no moral high ground for this position. It is petty, divisive and not Catholic.

Ah… the practices. That’s far different then judging the Holiness of individuals. And hardly warrants being labeled a Pharisee. There are some that would view those practices as not Catholic, but novelties added into Catholic worship. The cause of division.

 

[TimothyH]

If you were able to read the inner hearts of people, like Jesus could with the Pharisees then you may have a point. But you can’t so you don’t.

My point has nothing to do with me.

My point is based on Jesus’ own words in Matthew 5 through 7.

I’m only following the Master who says that how you worship is not what makes you holy.

-Tim-.

 

[thewanderer]

No one can see how holy you are in a public ritual. You can only supply the signs of it, as a demonstration of intent. You can set the stage. How the new order of mass is said is too distracting; the priest is under more pressure to perform and so are the laity. And then you have those laity who like being demonstrative at Mass.

**You can’t complain about casual behaviour at Mass and at the same time defend the changes. One goes with the other. Adding mundane signs to the mass (lay lectors in street clothes) and removing religious ones (like altar rails) works against creating religious awe. **

I call it the ‘modernist mindwarp’: do things which work against your stated intent and then defend them against the ‘Pharisees’, who are scratching their heads at it all.

I’m curious what value you think there is to supplying outward signs which can be taken as holiness to others… so that they can see that you are holy??? Why are you trying to ‘demonstrate your intent’ to other people?

 

[jam070406]

My point has nothing to do with me.

My point is based on Jesus’ own words in Matthew 5 through 7.

I’m only following the Master who says that how you worship is not what makes you holy.

-Tim-.

My point was that you and I have no right to judge anyone as a Pharisee. I directed it at you because you made the comment.

 

[TimothyH]

My point was that you and I have no right to judge anyone as a Pharisee. I directed it at you because you made the comment.

I made no such comment.

I noted that Jesus was correcting the teaching of the pharisees who taught that holiness was based on piety of worship and obedience to their interpretation of 613 commandments of the mosaic law.

No one said that anyone was a pharisee. Stop all this nonesense about pharisees. No one said such a thing.

-Tim-

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

When you add all the changes together and compare to what was normal before, it’s astonishing. If they happened all at once the laity would have thought the clergy had gone mad.

But drip, drip, drip over time and even granite is worn away.

Iin what way doesn’t CITH, standing, contribute to a disbelief in the Real Presence?
Religious might know their catechism but I’m not sure that the average Catholic under 40 has even seen one, these days. And certainly not one like the old Penny Catechism. COTT, kneeling might give a clue as to What they were receving. No lecture needed.

I’m afraid the current norm really does look like a queue for blessed bread. Stories of what would have been called sacrilege in the old days are now common; taking the host back to show mommy or keeping it for later. EMHCs watching out for improper consumption just shows how broken the idea of CITH is.

Drip,
Drip,
Drip.

 

[thewanderer]

When you add all the changes together and compare to what was normal before, it’s astonishing. If they happened all at once the laity would have thought the clergy had gone mad.

But drip, drip, drip over time and even granite is worn away.

Iin what way doesn’t CITH, standing, contribute to a disbelief in the Real Presence?
Religious might know their catechism but I’m not sure that the average Catholic under 40 has even seen one, these days. And certainly not one like the old Penny Catechism. COTT, kneeling might give a clue as to What they were receving. No lecture needed.

I’m afraid the current norm really does look like a queue for blessed bread. Stories of what would have been called sacrilege in the old days are now common; taking the host back to show mommy or keeping it for later. EMHCs watching out for improper consumption just shows how broken the idea of CITH is.

Drip,
Drip,
Drip.

I’m sorry, but if I were never told what it was that I was receiving, even though I usually received kneeling on the tongue I would neve have known that I was receiving Christ. You have to be told these things, you’re just not gonna figure it by yourself. Thats the way humans work. As for the extternals of whether you receive kneelin/standing OTT/ITH and whether or not that will have a positive/negative effect on your reverence and holiness depends entirely on how you view those practices. If you engage in a practice which you see as a good way of showing reverence then it will help you to be reverent. So if you see kneeling as a sign of reverence it is good to kneel. If you see standing as a sign of reverence it is good to stand. Same for any such external practice, the whole point is whether or not it helps an individual grow in holiness and that does not simply depend on the external, it depends on the way the individual perceives and relates to the external. Receiving in the hand while standing will not necessarily lead to a disbelief in the real presence, but lack of catechesis most certainly will.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Take away the ‘externals’ and what do you have?

Quakers!

 

[pete_29]

I made no such comment.

I noted that Jesus was correcting the teaching of the pharisees who taught that holiness was based on piety of worship and obedience to their interpretation of 613 commandments of the mosaic law.

No one said that anyone was a pharisee. Stop all this nonesense about pharisees. No one said such a thing.

-Tim-

So I guess that snide comment about me not praying like I ought wasn’t condescending at all.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

This is not a thread about CITH and COTT, with the obvious reminder that both are permitted.

An argument in favor of abolishing CITH as a means of preventing potential irreverence and abuse is weak. I say that as an Eastern Catholic who only rarely receives communion in the hand when attending Mass, and one who avoids receiving from Eucharistic ministers if at all possible. Yes, I’m very conservative and traditional, yet knowledgeable and respectful of the Church’s teachings as well. I know I was actually afraid to receive CITH for the first time, and sought guidance beforehand. So too should those who are permitted to receive CITH be properly instructed beforehand and respectful of the Church’s teachings in that regard.

At the end of the day, this thread is about reverence for the holy and respect for the fellow Catholics around you during the Mass. More importantly, it speaks to how we must remember that the Mass, the Liturgy, is the work of the people, where we communally gather to worship God according to a common faith and Creed, not necessarily common custom (although that is preferable, and it is the role of the clergy to guide it).

That said, people are people. Even in my own Eastern Catholic Church, while we never had the experience of introducing a new form of Liturgy, there have been changes in praxis as we have re-explored and reintroduced some of our ancient, venerable traditions and customs of Orthodox origin. As a result, for example, one normally sees the elder members of our parish kneeling during the Anaphora, even though our text clearly indicates that standing is the correct liturgical posture. We stand, as we maintain that we commemorate the Resurrection first and foremost in the Divine Liturgy, and kneeling is penitential, not joyful. Do we then sit in judgement of our elders each week? No, but we try to explain to our youth, to whom this might be confusing, that their grandparents learned a different way, and that’s OK, and its also OK for them to stand, as they were taught.