I ran into a Lutheran Woman Priest. Felt a little odd seeing her

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The English language is perfectly comfortable with the attributive use of nouns: woman doctor, woman soldier, woman teacher, woman priest. And are you quite sure you are really concerned for the grammar, rather than preferring to use a word with more than a whiff of the pagan about it?
Pagans had priests, too, not just priestesses.

If the ordination of women was OK, it wouldn’t be any more ‘pagan’ for a woman to be called priestess, than it is for a man to be called ‘priest.’ I think it rather stems from the fact that many ‘Protestants’ do not believe that the priest offers anything.
 
I saw this Lutheran Priestess and I couldn’t help but to feel very odd and uncomfortable. She seemed like a nice person but I couldn’t get myself to say hello. I hope to be able to remove this uncomfortableness in the future.
A couple of points that might just help.

First, the gender of a Lutheran pastor should not concern you at all. Almost certainly your church would not regard the pastor as a valid priest, male or female.

Second, don’t be affected by the sight of a female in a clerical collar: she is not trying to look like a Catholic. Clerical collars and bands were developed by Anglicans, Methodists and Presbyterians — many of whom would have vehemently denied being priests! Only later were clerical collars borrowed by RC priests. So she is not trying to ape a Catholic priest. Clerical collars are just a mode of dress employed by ministers of many Christian denominations.
 
It is certainly true that the Catholic Church teaches thus, although I beg leave to doubt that yours is an adequate summary, for Pope St John Paul II did not mention this necessary resemblance in his teaching Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, but rested entirely on the masculinity of the Twelve and the presence of Tradition.
Therefore you and a gathering of the female ministers in your neighborhood might be of use. Perhaps you could discuss 1 Corinthians 14:34f. As bible believing Christians, who take the Bible as the sole rule of faith, it would be interesting how you would interpret these verses and if any consensus among all you could be achieved.
 
Therefore you and a gathering of the female ministers in your neighborhood might be of use. Perhaps you could discuss 1 Corinthians 14:34f. As bible believing Christians, who take the Bible as the sole rule of faith, it would be interesting how you would interpret these verses and if any consensus among all you could be achieved.
Well, a meeting of me and the female ministers in my neighbourhood who are bible believing Christians who take the Bible as the sole rule of faith – that might be a small meeting. The Anglican priest couldn’t attend, because she doesn’t believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith, she tends to be guided by Scripture, Tradition and Reason, and the voice of her bishops. I’m pretty sure the Methodist minister doesn’t believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith, either. You’d have to ask the Presbyterian personally. And it would have to count me out, as I am not a bible believing Christian. If there was anyone left, no doubt they would start talking about Paul’s references to various women in positions of authority in the church, and no doubt, too, 1 Corinthians 11:5 would come up in the conversation, and all the rest of the “pro” argument we are all familiar with. For myself, while I am on this forum I take no stand on women’s ordination: it would not be appropriate.
 
And, if so, still possess (or did so, at the pertinent point for the joint communions), valid, though illicit, orders. Which returns to the major question on the joint consecrations, and the point in Ott, p. 458. Still curious, waiting for an official comment or ruling on that, analogous to Apostolicae curae.

But is this not straying, again, from the point of the OP? A warning has been issued.

GKC
Having looked at this topic from a couple of different perspectives there has been one part of this that we haven’t looked at too closely. That is the intention of the minister of the sacrament. In Pope Leo’s encyclical he declared Anglican orders were invalid because of defect in both form (rite) and intention.

In general, an act of the will by which one determines to do something: in the case of the minister, the will to administer the sacrament.

The minister, being human, is a free instrument,(contra Luther who declared that by original sin human reason has degenerated and free will no longer exists), and that is the real reason why his intention, at least virtual, to act as the representative of Christ in the administration of the sacrament, is absolutely necessary - whereas the moral dispositions (faith and the state of grace) are not required - in order that the sacrament produce the grace. It depends, in fact, on the free act of will of the animated agent, as man is, that in each and all cases he commit himself as an instrument in the hands of Christ. Besides, only the intention of acting ministerially can determine ad unam the sacramental meaning of the external rite, susceptible per se of multiple significations.

The Council of Trent in defining against Luther and Calvin the necessity of intention in the minister (Denzinger 854) determines also its object: “The minister must intend to do what the Church does”. In this expression, which sums up and sanctions a century-old theological formula, is indicated the relationship of dependency of the minister on the Church. The harmony of the plan of salvation chosen by Christ, the manifestation of the spiritual in the corporal (“the flesh is the hinge of salvation” - Tertullian), demanded that the activity of the minister be in direct relationship of dependency on the visible society,(once again, contra Luther), the Church which is the perennial manifestation of Christ (the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ), indefectibly faithful to the mandate of its Founder, do men of all times and places find the guarantee of the continuity of the means of salvation established by the Redeemer.

The Church, moreover, is a well organized body, in contrast to all Reformation sects, in which every vital movement, linked to an external rite, must depend in some way on the visible head (again the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ). It is necessary, therefore, that every infusion of new vital energies, caused by the sacraments, be in some way dependent on the visible head of the Church and on her hierarchy, which is the Pope’s co-adjutor " in ministering the blood of the Lamb for the universal body of the Christian religion" (St. Catherine of Siena).

It is purposely said “it must depend in some way,” because this dependency can be various and from a maximum can descend to a minimum necessary to preserve the bond of reference. In fact, it can be explicit, as in the Catholic priest who absolves the penitent, and implicit as in the infidel who, ignorant of the Church and her rites, is induced to administer baptism according to the intention of the one asking; it can, moreover, be direct, as in all ministers having communications with the Apostolic See, or indirect, as may be found in heretics and schismatics, who by the very fact that their respective sects or churches keep and repeat what Rome did when they separated from her, indirectly put themselves in a position of dependency on, and connection with, the Catholic Church.
 
Well, a meeting of me and the female ministers in my neighbourhood who are bible believing Christians who take the Bible as the sole rule of faith – that might be a small meeting. The Anglican priest couldn’t attend, because she doesn’t believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith, she tends to be guided by Scripture, Tradition and Reason, and the voice of her bishops. I’m pretty sure the Methodist minister doesn’t believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith, either. You’d have to ask the Presbyterian personally. And it would have to count me out, as I am not a bible believing Christian. If there was anyone left, no doubt they would start talking about Paul’s references to various women in positions of authority in the church, and no doubt, too, 1 Corinthians 11:5 would come up in the conversation, and all the rest of the “pro” argument we are all familiar with. For myself, while I am on this forum I take no stand on women’s ordination: it would not be appropriate.
 
Well, a meeting of me and the female ministers in my neighbourhood who are bible believing Christians who take the Bible as the sole rule of faith – that might be a small meeting. The Anglican priest couldn’t attend, because she doesn’t believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith, she tends to be guided by Scripture, Tradition and Reason, and the voice of her bishops. I’m pretty sure the Methodist minister doesn’t believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith, either. You’d have to ask the Presbyterian personally. And it would have to count me out, as I am not a bible believing Christian. If there was anyone left, no doubt they would start talking about Paul’s references to various women in positions of authority in the church, and no doubt, too, 1 Corinthians 11:5 would come up in the conversation, and all the rest of the “pro” argument we are all familiar with. For myself, while I am on this forum I take no stand on women’s ordination: it would not be appropriate.
GK got it right - “motleydom” :rotfl:
 
No offense taken. I’m High Church and Anglicanus-Catholicus, which technically are not identical things.

Across the range of motley Anglicans, the use of the term “table” is mostly to be found on the rather far side of the reformed/evangelical folk.

GKC
Then here is a similarity we agree on. I attend the Tridentine rite on Sundays (the one approved by our bishop naturally 👍) but I do attend the Novus Ordo through the week. Thankfully, our pastor and his associate have never referred to the altar as a table at the our Novus Ordo parish. I know both you and I see the significance here.
 
And, if so, still possess (or did so, at the pertinent point for the joint communions), valid, though illicit, orders. Which returns to the major question on the joint consecrations, and the point in Ott, p. 458. Still curious, waiting for an official comment or ruling on that, analogous to Apostolicae curae.

But is this not straying, again, from the point of the OP? A warning has been issued.

GKC
To really get to the core of Catholic teaching on this matter one must get a handle on Catholic doctrine. There is so much of it and it is a broad mosaic.

For me, the Doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ has held my attention for over sixty years. I have never stopped reading about it, thinking about it and discussing it with my pastors. This doctrine, and doctrine it is, has been a sure guide for me down through the years. Ott is good, but not nearly enough. Not by a long shot.
 
To really get to the core of Catholic teaching on this matter one must get a handle on Catholic doctrine. There is so much of it and it is a broad mosaic.

For me, the Doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ has held my attention for over sixty years. I have never stopped reading about it, thinking about it and discussing it with my pastors. This doctrine, and doctrine it is, has been a sure guide for me down through the years. Ott is good, but not nearly enough. Not by a long shot.
In-depth study is a good thing. If Ott is wrong, seeing where he is wrong would also be a good thing. I’ve seen comments on poor translation in Ott, but nothing on this particular point.

GKC
 
Then here is a similarity we agree on. I attend the Tridentine rite on Sundays (the one approved by our bishop naturally 👍) but I do attend the Novus Ordo through the week. Thankfully, our pastor and his associate have never referred to the altar as a table at the our Novus Ordo parish. I know both you and I see the significance here.
That we do.

GKC
 
Having looked at this topic from a couple of different perspectives there has been one part of this that we haven’t looked at too closely. That is the intention of the minister of the sacrament. In Pope Leo’s encyclical he declared Anglican orders were invalid because of defect in both form (rite) and intention.

In general, an act of the will by which one determines to do something: in the case of the minister, the will to administer the sacrament.

The minister, being human, is a free instrument,(contra Luther who declared that by original sin human reason has degenerated and free will no longer exists), and that is the real reason why his intention, at least virtual, to act as the representative of Christ in the administration of the sacrament, is absolutely necessary - whereas the moral dispositions (faith and the state of grace) are not required - in order that the sacrament produce the grace. It depends, in fact, on the free act of will of the animated agent, as man is, that in each and all cases he commit himself as an instrument in the hands of Christ. Besides, only the intention of acting ministerially can determine ad unam the sacramental meaning of the external rite, susceptible per se of multiple significations.

The Council of Trent in defining against Luther and Calvin the necessity of intention in the minister (Denzinger 854) determines also its object: “The minister must intend to do what the Church does”. In this expression, which sums up and sanctions a century-old theological formula, is indicated the relationship of dependency of the minister on the Church. The harmony of the plan of salvation chosen by Christ, the manifestation of the spiritual in the corporal (“the flesh is the hinge of salvation” - Tertullian), demanded that the activity of the minister be in direct relationship of dependency on the visible society,(once again, contra Luther), the Church which is the perennial manifestation of Christ (the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ), indefectibly faithful to the mandate of its Founder, do men of all times and places find the guarantee of the continuity of the means of salvation established by the Redeemer.

The Church, moreover, is a well organized body, in contrast to all Reformation sects, in which every vital movement, linked to an external rite, must depend in some way on the visible head (again the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ). It is necessary, therefore, that every infusion of new vital energies, caused by the sacraments, be in some way dependent on the visible head of the Church and on her hierarchy, which is the Pope’s co-adjutor " in ministering the blood of the Lamb for the universal body of the Christian religion" (St. Catherine of Siena).

It is purposely said “it must depend in some way,” because this dependency can be various and from a maximum can descend to a minimum necessary to preserve the bond of reference. In fact, it can be explicit, as in the Catholic priest who absolves the penitent, and implicit as in the infidel who, ignorant of the Church and her rites, is induced to administer baptism according to the intention of the one asking; it can, moreover, be direct, as in all ministers having communications with the Apostolic See, or indirect, as may be found in heretics and schismatics, who by the very fact that their respective sects or churches keep and repeat what Rome did when they separated from her, indirectly put themselves in a position of dependency on, and connection with, the Catholic Church.
On another board where I post, I’m occasionally accused of looking too much at sacramental intent. Which, given the intertwined relationship of sacramental intent and sacramental form, in the judgement in Apostolicae curae, seems to me a hard thing to do.

Sacramental intent is the simplest of the necessary requirements for confecting a sacrament, validly, to satisfy. It is* facere quod facit ecclesia*, to intend to do what the Church does, in the sacrament, as in your para 4. As Apostolicae curae says, sacramental intent is an interior state, not given to external demonstration or verification in itself. That’s why, if all the other external sacramental aspects (form, matter, minister, etc) are valid, the sacramental intent is normally assumed to be valid, also. This relates to your para 3, and is why even an atheist, with intent facere quod facit ecclesia, even not understanding what that might be, can, for example, validly baptize.

However, if there is an external factor which raises a question (determinatio ex adiunctis)) of the intent as other than valid, this may permit a determination of invalid sacramental intent, from that factor. In the judgement of Apostolicae curae, this was said to be the use of the Edwardine ordinal. Which, in your closing para, leads to the question of Ott’s assertion, and how that might reflect on the joint OC/Utrecht/Anglican consecrations, absent something to serve as the determinatio, all other sacramental factors not being exceptional.

I remain curious, absent a formal statement paralleling Apostolicae curae

GKC
 
What does that mean?
I think “bible believing Christian” is an expression used by some, probably fundamentalist evangelical, churches. Tomster used it, probably with disparaging intent, to describe me and the three female ministers in my locality. I imagine it is literally true for the ministers, although perhaps not the way they would describe themselves, as they serve mainline denominations (Anglican, Methodist, United Reformed). I was pointing out that it is not at all true of me. As it happens it could not be true of me since I am not a Christian of any description. Perhaps Tomster was unaware of that, which would be good because it would imply that I am dutifully well behaved here!
 
I think “bible believing Christian” is an expression used by some, probably fundamentalist evangelical, churches. Tomster used it, probably with disparaging intent, to describe me and the three female ministers in my locality. I imagine it is literally true for the ministers, although perhaps not the way they would describe themselves, as they serve mainline denominations (Anglican, Methodist, United Reformed). I was pointing out that it is not at all true of me. As it happens it could not be true of me since I am not a Christian of any description. Perhaps Tomster was unaware of that, which would be good because it would imply that I am dutifully well behaved here!
I had deduced that, and yes, you behave with decorum.

GKC
 
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