I really Need Help With This

[SirMick]

I was hoping for some help with this.

I was in an informal debate with a Protestant Friend of mine and a minister, and the discussion was not going well for them, not based on scripture (Thank you Time Staples for the Scriptural Cheat Sheet), or based on history.

Then they come up with this nugget and tell me I am disobeying the authority of the Church. Can some-one explain what this means and if apologist really do not have permission to defend doctrine? The website can be accessed at this link.

newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm

Thank you for the help!!!
“As to doctrine
The body of the faithful is strictly speaking the Ecclesia docta (the Church taught), in contrast with the Ecclesia docens (the teaching Church), which consists of the pope and the bishops. When there is question, therefore, of the official teaching of religious doctrine, the laity is neither competent nor authorized to speak in the name of God and the Church (cap. xii et sq., lib. V, tit. vii, “de haereticis”). Consequently they are not allowed to preach in church, or to undertake to defend the Catholic doctrine in public discussions with heretics. But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

 

[anns82]

I would say this essentially means that a lay Catholic can not go on the news and claim to speak for the Catholic Church (something I wish Nancy Pelosi would realize.) A person can give witness and explain doctrines to the best of their ability, but they can not present themselves as an authority or official representative of the Church considering not every lay person completely understands what the Church teaches.

 

[diggerdomer]

I was hoping for some help with this.

I was in an informal debate with a Protestant Friend of mine and a minister, and the discussion was not going well for them, not based on scripture (Thank you Time Staples for the Scriptural Cheat Sheet), or based on history.

Then they come up with this nugget and tell me I am disobeying the authority of the Church. Can some-one explain what this means and if apologist really do not have permission to defend doctrine? The website can be accessed at this link.

newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm

Thank you for the help!!!
“As to doctrine
The body of the faithful is strictly speaking the Ecclesia docta (the Church taught), in contrast with the Ecclesia docens (the teaching Church), which consists of the pope and the bishops. When there is question, therefore, of the official teaching of religious doctrine, the laity is neither competent nor authorized to speak in the name of God and the Church (cap. xii et sq., lib. V, tit. vii, “de haereticis”). Consequently they are not allowed to preach in church, or to undertake to defend the Catholic doctrine in public discussions with heretics. But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

Tell them to stop referring to the Catholic Encyclopedia from a century (almost) ago, when there’s a new edition available (along with all the other Magisterial teaching, including the Catechism, Canon Law, Vatican II, etc.) since the early 20th century.

For instance, the current Catholic Encyclopedia (not the one on the New Advent site) says this:

The mission of the laity is described in LG #33. The council affirmed that the apostolate of the laity is a sharing in the salvific mission of the Church itself, and not simply a sharing in the apostolate of the hierarchy, which was the popular pre-conciliar definition. The laity, according to the council, have both the right and the responsibility to participate in the Church’s mission to the world as well as the right and responsibility to contribute to the Church’s inner life and organization.

LG refers to Lumen Gentium, Vatican 2’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. That would be the key document to make them aware of.

 

[VetA]

But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

 

[SirMick]

Thank you, the answers were very helpful.

 

[Bookcat]

It is from 100 years ago…and even then one must understand what was meant…

any how

here:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html

 

[VociMike]

Seems to me that by making that charge they are admitting to being heretics.

 

[sambos671]

I was hoping for some help with this.

I was in an informal debate with a Protestant Friend of mine and a minister, and the discussion was not going well for them, not based on scripture (Thank you Time Staples for the Scriptural Cheat Sheet), or based on history.

Then they come up with this nugget and tell me I am disobeying the authority of the Church. Can some-one explain what this means and if apologist really do not have permission to defend doctrine? The website can be accessed at this link.

newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm

Thank you for the help!!!
“As to doctrine
The body of the faithful is strictly speaking the Ecclesia docta (the Church taught), in contrast with the Ecclesia docens (the teaching Church), which consists of the pope and the bishops. When there is question, therefore, of the official teaching of religious doctrine, the laity is neither competent nor authorized to speak in the name of God and the Church (cap. xii et sq., lib. V, tit. vii, “de haereticis”). Consequently they are not allowed to preach in church, or to undertake to defend the Catholic doctrine in public discussions with heretics. But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

What is this tim staples Cheat sheet and how can I get one?

 

[SirMick]

Hi,

I was able to locate a similar one on line.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0039.html

This should get you started!!! A read through the verses for familiarization is recomended.

Take care!!!

 

[Ignatius]

For instance, the current Catholic Encyclopedia (not the one on the New Advent site) . . . . :

Do you have a link to the new Catholic Encyclopedia?

 

[Ignatius]

But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

Can anyone supply a reference and a link to this?

 

[Big_Dummy]

I was hoping for some help with this.

I was in an informal debate with a Protestant Friend of mine and a minister, and the discussion was not going well for them, not based on scripture (Thank you Time Staples for the Scriptural Cheat Sheet), or based on history.

Then they come up with this nugget and tell me I am disobeying the authority of the Church. Can some-one explain what this means and if apologist really do not have permission to defend doctrine? The website can be accessed at this link.

newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm

Thank you for the help!!!
“As to doctrine
The body of the faithful is strictly speaking the Ecclesia docta (the Church taught), in contrast with the Ecclesia docens (the teaching Church), which consists of the pope and the bishops. When there is question, therefore, of the official teaching of religious doctrine, the laity is neither competent nor authorized to speak in the name of God and the Church (cap. xii et sq., lib. V, tit. vii, “de haereticis”). Consequently they are not allowed to preach in church, or to undertake to defend the Catholic doctrine in public discussions with heretics. But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

Ask him to show you where or what you are teaching that is contray to what the church authorities are teaching. I take it, as long as you are in agreement with authority, you can quote that authority as authoritive.

 

[clmowry]

I was hoping for some help with this.

I was in an informal debate with a Protestant Friend of mine and a minister, and the discussion was not going well for them, not based on scripture (Thank you Time Staples for the Scriptural Cheat Sheet), or based on history.

Then they come up with this nugget and tell me I am disobeying the authority of the Church. Can some-one explain what this means and if apologist really do not have permission to defend doctrine? The website can be accessed at this link.

newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm

Thank you for the help!!!
“As to doctrine
The body of the faithful is strictly speaking the Ecclesia docta (the Church taught), in contrast with the Ecclesia docens (the teaching Church), which consists of the pope and the bishops. When there is question, therefore, of the official teaching of religious doctrine, the laity is neither competent nor authorized to speak in the name of God and the Church (cap. xii et sq., lib. V, tit. vii, “de haereticis”). Consequently they are not allowed to preach in church, or to undertake to defend the Catholic doctrine in public discussions with heretics. But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

That’s funny.

So was this a public discussion?

Even if they do consider themselves heretics, this doesn’t prohibit you from engaging in private discussions with them.

Chuck

 

[diggerdomer]

Do you have a link to the new Catholic Encyclopedia?

It’s not available publicly online due to copyright. If there’s a specific article you’re interested in I’d be happy to look it up and share info.

 

[Ignatius]

[qutoe]
But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

It’s not available publicly online due to copyright. If there’s a specific article you’re interested in I’d be happy to look it up and share info.

What’s the title or section that your quote is from?
Also, Can the new Catholic Encyclopedia be purchased?

 

[Ignatius]

I was hoping for some help with this.

I was in an informal debate with a Protestant Friend of mine and a minister, and the discussion was not going well for them, not based on scripture (Thank you Time Staples for the Scriptural Cheat Sheet), or based on history.

Then they come up with this nugget and tell me I am disobeying the authority of the Church. Can some-one explain what this means and if apologist really do not have permission to defend doctrine? The website can be accessed at this link.

“As to doctrine
The body of the faithful is strictly speaking the Ecclesia docta (the Church taught), in contrast with the Ecclesia docens (the teaching Church), which consists of the pope and the bishops. When there is question, therefore, of the official teaching of religious doctrine, the laity is neither competent nor authorized to speak in the name of God and the Church (cap. xii et sq., lib. V, tit. vii, “de haereticis”). Consequently they are not allowed to preach in church, or to undertake to defend the Catholic doctrine in public discussions with heretics.** But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing**, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

It’s right there in the quote. “But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing,”

 

[diggerdomer]

It’s not available publicly online due to copyright. If there’s a specific article you’re interested in I’d be happy to look it up and share info.

What’s the title or section that your quote is from?
Also, Can the new Catholic Encyclopedia be purchased?

The article on “Laity.”

Yes, I’m sure it’s available for purchase, though I don’t know where exactly. I found it on Amazon here: amazon.com/New-Catholic-Encyclopedia-2nd-Set/dp/0787640042

 

[Nita]

I was hoping for some help with this.

I was in an informal debate with a Protestant Friend of mine and a minister, and the discussion was not going well for them, not based on scripture (Thank you Time Staples for the Scriptural Cheat Sheet), or based on history.

Then they come up with this nugget and tell me I am disobeying the authority of the Church. Can some-one explain what this means and if apologist really do not have permission to defend doctrine? The website can be accessed at this link.

newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm

Thank you for the help!!!
“As to doctrine
The body of the faithful is strictly speaking the Ecclesia docta (the Church taught), in contrast with the Ecclesia docens (the teaching Church), which consists of the pope and the bishops. When there is question, therefore, of the official teaching of religious doctrine, the laity is neither competent nor authorized to speak in the name of God and the Church (cap. xii et sq., lib. V, tit. vii, “de haereticis”). Consequently they are not allowed to preach in church, or to undertake to defend the Catholic doctrine in public discussions with heretics. But in their private capacity, they may most lawfully defend and teach their religion by word and writing, while submitting themselves to the control and guidance of ecclesiastical authority. Moreover, they may be appointed to give doctrinal instruction more or less officially, or may even become the defenders of Catholic truth. Thus they give excellent help to the clergy in teaching catechism, the lay masters in our schools give religious instruction, and some laymen have received a missio canonica, or due ecclesiastical authorization, to teach the religious sciences in universities and seminaries; the important point in this, as in other matters, is for them to be submissive to the legitimate teaching authority.”

The first thing I’d do is point out that those are not “doctrines” – they are “regulations”. Regulations can be changed. Those regulations were no doubt wise and appropriate for the time.

 

[diggerdomer]

The first thing I’d do is point out that those are not “doctrines” – they are “regulations”. Regulations can be changed. Those regulations were no doubt wise and appropriate for the time.

doctrines (as distinct from dogmas) can also be changed.

 

[tjm190]

You can not speak for the Church, just like you can not speak for the government, CNN, PETA or any other organization you are not included in the power structure of.

You may still defend the Church, the government, CNN, or PETA- but your defenses carry no official weight.