I really struggle with being a "liturgy snob"

[Graceful_Lamb]

It seems that you think that this behavior is always the conscious choice of the other party. Some people are just by nature, easily distracted or over-analytical. It is not always easy to turn it off if that is how our minds naturally work. It comes easier to some than others. For example, I have perfect pitch. It is both a blessing and a curse. I don’t WANT to be distracted by amateur musicians but it is very hard to shut off my brain.

Agreed. I have ADHD and get distracted pretty easily.

I can’t carry a tune for anything! I love singing, but I’m sure the people who are around me in Mass may not care for my version of singing.

 

[bobballen_18]

But doesn’t God deserve better? Bad liturgy is not bad because it makes us feel bad, but because it is so far from the best that we can offer God. After all that wonderful sentiment you expressed about the Eucharist I am amazed that the conclusion you reached does not seem to follow. We truly do have a sublime, insurpassable gift in the Eucharist and this is all the more reason to demand a reverent celebration of the Mass. God deserves our best and therefore we should always cringe when we see the Holy Mass abused. This is not necessarily born out of pride, but of a righteous longing for God to be worshipped as He deserves to be. And the second we throw up the white flag and excuse ourselves from the fight - no matter how good our intentions - the hippies, the bongos, and the overall dismal status quo wins.

Yes, thank you. I definitely want to admit that I’m sure there are “liturgy snobs” who struggle with pride, and indeed, claim to desire the “better” liturgy because of this pride and/or to mask this pride; however, I think it is certainly erroneous to assume that everyone who wants good Liturgy does so out of pride, so I always cringe when I hear someone talking about how we should just get over ourselves and accept what we have. Excuse me, but absolutely not - this is God Himself we are worshipping/adoring/etc. in our Liturgy, and I see no reason not to desire and work towards the best we have to offer.

I also want to acknowledge that many places we would consider to have “bad” Liturgy have it through no fault of their own and truly don’t know any better - but we, the Church as a whole, need to unite and come together to change this. It might involve hurt feelings in tons of places, but people’s feelings are always going to get hurt, no matter how charitable someone is about something.

 

[bobballen_18]

However, if our hearts are not in the right place–if they are filled with contempt for any of our fellow Mass attendees, including hippies–then our worship is defiled no matter how sublime it appears–and we are not truly offering our best to God. I, for one, am not willing to claim that I know how God deserves to be worshiped–other than to say that it should be with my whole heart, my whole mind, and my whole soul. I am not willing to claim: that God prefers a 17th century hymn to a more contemporary song, that God prefers organ music to a piano and guitar, that God prefers suits to khaki’s or ties to open collared shirts, or that God cringes when someone dares to hold hands during the Our Father. What we claim to be “our best” has changed over time–and reflects class constructs. It may be that when we dress up in a suit and tie for Mass that we are trying to offer our best to God–but it also projects a certain social status and may well make some of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ or strangers interested in Christ–feel unwelcome or out of place–and it may also be a source of pride for us (cf Pope Francis and his black shoes). It seems to me that Christ was always more concerned with what was in our hearts than on external appearances. It was the pharisee’s who were sticklers for letter of the law and appearance rather than the spirit, for what went into the mouth rather than what came out of the mouth.

None of this should be taken to mean that I am for some kind of anything goes Mass or that I think we should come to Mass in cut-offs and flip flops. I want a Mass that raises our hearts and minds to God and not a Mass that feels like a 18th century opera–where those of us in the pews are merely observers–with many engaging in their own private devotions (as they did in the good old days)–to my way of thinking that’s not what the Mass was ever intended to be–nor was it what the Mass of the early Church was. I want a Mass where all are welcomed and helped on their journey to grow closer to Christ. Were we celebrate Christs death and resurrection–where we hear the good news of the Gospel proclaimed. Were we are joyous and not dour --Christ died and rose for us and has given us the Eucharist to nourish us on our journey. I want to celebrate the Mass within the norms allowed by the GIRM–without having every gesture my fellow parishioners make or song they choose to sing put under the microscope by those who apparently spend more time at Mass watching others, and critiquing than they do praying. I want a Mass where people experience the love of Christ and not the condemnation of the pharisees. I want a Mass where we all worship lovingly together and are strengthened by the Eucharist and more fully united to Christ. I want a Mass where we worship with our brothers and sisters in Christ and in whom we can count on when things go bad and who can count us in their time of need. It would seem that we could have all that and reverence to. But we have nothing if our hearts are far from God–and when we harbor ill will toward those we celebrate with at Mass–because they don’t appear reverent enough or make a gesture we don’t like–then I am not sure our hearts are close to God. At least that’s what I found for myself.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I think you’re correct, Mark, that there is a problem if “our hearts are filled with contempt” for fellow Mass attendees. Indeed it is important to see Jesus in everyone. But I don’t believe for one second that, necessarily, seeing Jesus in everyone, and wanting good Liturgy, are mutually exclusive. And you didn’t directly say this, but what everyone says when people complain about the Liturgy is things like you mention above, and by you saying these things, you are implying that they ARE mutually exclusive. Please correct me if you do not think this.

I have one other comment about you post - there are a lot of "I want"s in your post. You mentioned you are “not willing to claim to know how God deserves to be worshiped” and that you are “not willing to claim: that God prefers a 17th century hymn to a more contemporary song, that God prefers organ music to a piano and guitar” and a few other things. However, what about the Church, what the Church wants? The Church, through the past 2,000 years, has given us a pretty darn good idea what God wants, I would say! Obviously things can change over the years. But… here’s the deal: generally, we can be sure the God is with us and and speaks to us through the Church, right? So while I’m not going to make the claim “God prefers” (though one could certain legitimately claim to know what God prefers because of this), I will definitely make the claim that, for example, the CHURCH prefers certain things. The Church prefers certain ways for the Liturgy to be celebrated. The Church prefers certain music to be used above other forms of music (and has indeed prohibited some forms though that is really ignored today, unfortunately). I say if the Church prefers it, that’s a good enough reason to want it!

I don’t know if you and I truly disagree all that much, because I agree with what seems to be a big theme in your post - basically, that we have nothing if “our hearts are far from God” or we are judging people all the time at Mass. What I vehemently disagree with is the assumption that everyone who deeply desires a good, reverent, beautiful Liturgy - the best we have to offer here on this Earth - also is an extremely judgmental, ill-willing, snob who can’t see Jesus in anyone. Nope.

 

[alphawoman]

You have said beautifully what I have tried to say poorly. I wish I could delete my post.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Thanks, Mark. You spoke from the heart, and that is beautiful!

 

[MarkInOregon]

I think you’re correct, Mark, that there is a problem if “our hearts are filled with contempt” for fellow Mass attendees. Indeed it is important to see Jesus in everyone. But I don’t believe for one second that, necessarily, seeing Jesus in everyone, and wanting good Liturgy, are mutually exclusive. And you didn’t directly say this, but what everyone says when people complain about the Liturgy is things like you mention above, and by you saying these things, you are implying that they ARE mutually exclusive. Please correct me if you do not think this.

Nor do I. I just don’t think it is productive or healthy for us to allow a less than perfect liturgy to keep us from worshiping God. The liturgy has never been perfect. People seem to long for a golden age that never really existed. The growing abuses during the middle ages is what led to the Mass reforms at the time of Trent. And the Mass prior to Vatican II had it’s own problems in practice. That Mass appears more reverent now because all the less than perfect Catholics attend their local OF Mass. If you stuck all of us in your EF Mass I think have the same issues there. Just go to the the Nut Cracker at Christmas – its not the same crowd that turns out for Giselle or La Bayadere.

I have one other comment about you post - there are a lot of "I want"s in your post.

Yes and I had concerns about that, but I don’t think my I’s have anything to do with the manner, or should I say form?, in which the liturgy is celebrated–but more with the attitude or disposition that I’d like myself and others to bring to Mass. I’m not advocating for any particular kind of music, postures or gestures. I did say that I would like the Mass celebrated within the norms of the GIRM i.e. as the Church wishes.

You mentioned you are “not willing to claim to know how God deserves to be worshiped” and that you are “not willing to claim: that God prefers a 17th century hymn to a more contemporary song, that God prefers organ music to a piano and guitar” and a few other things. However, what about the Church, what the Church wants?

I did say I wanted a Mass celebrated within the norms of the GIRM – which is what the Church wants.

The Church, through the past 2,000 years, has given us a pretty darn good idea what God wants, I would say! Obviously things can change over the years.

Doctrinally–yes. I’m not sure I’d phrase it that way with regard to discipline and liturgy. I’m not sure the Church promulgates disciplines or designs the liturgy because it thinks that’s how God wants us to worship him but rather because it thinks this is the best way for us to be drawn closer to God. The liturgy changes/adapts over time as the best way to draw people closer to God changes–as the culture changes old ways loose their effectiveness. The Church has always worked within the cultures where it is trying to spread the Gospel–adopting and transforming what it needed to to reach the people, to help them understand the Gospel message. The Doctrine doesn’t change, the Gospel message doesn’t change but the best way to get the Gospel message to people, the best way to help them understand and live the Gospel, the best way for them to worship may.

But… here’s the deal: generally, we can be sure the God is with us and and speaks to us through the Church, right? So while I’m not going to make the claim “God prefers” (though one could certain legitimately claim to know what God prefers because of this),

See above. I agree with you in regards to doctrine. I’m not sure that’s how I would state the claim with regards to discipline and liturgy. God wants us to become one with him–that is what the Church is trying to help us do–I’m just not sure that means that because the Church thinks xyz is the best way to help us today–that God then prefers xyz. I say this because when the Church says things have changed and now tuv is the best way to help people draw closer to God --what your statement implies is that God now prefers tuv–but God doesn’t change. That would be my hesitation with the way you have stated it --though I understand what you are driving at.

I will definitely make the claim that, for example, the CHURCH prefers certain things. The Church prefers certain ways for the Liturgy to be celebrated. The Church prefers certain music to be used above other forms of music (and has indeed prohibited some forms though that is really ignored today, unfortunately). I say if the Church prefers it, that’s a good enough reason to want it!

I can’t argue with this.

I don’t know if you and I truly disagree all that much, because I agree with what seems to be a big theme in your post - basically, that we have nothing if “our hearts are far from God” or we are judging people all the time at Mass. What I vehemently disagree with is the assumption that everyone who deeply desires a good, reverent, beautiful Liturgy - the best we have to offer here on this Earth - also is an extremely judgmental, ill-willing, snob who can’t see Jesus in anyone. Nope.

I don’t think that is my assumption and I apologize if that is how it came across. My concern is for when we come to Mass and instead of worshiping God we get worked up because of a song that was sung, or because someone holds hands during the Our Father, or because father fumbled his words during one of the prayers–I think that only hurts us. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t desire a good liturgy nor does it mean we shouldn’t work for a better one, but we must worship in the present with what we have to the best of our ability.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[alphawoman]

Yes, exactly Mark. Strive for your personal best within the Church’s boundaries, and encourage others to do so, but don’t let the less-than-ideal personal best of fellow humans distract from the REAL value of Mass.

 

[MarkInOregon]

It seems that you think that this behavior is always the conscious choice of the other party. Some people are just by nature, easily distracted or over-analytical. It is not always easy to turn it off if that is how our minds naturally work. It comes easier to some than others. For example, I have perfect pitch. It is both a blessing and a curse. I don’t WANT to be distracted by amateur musicians but it is very hard to shut off my brain.

I don’t think that I do and I am sorry if I gave that impression. What I do think is that we should not throw up our hands and hide behind saying that’s just the way we are and we’re not going to work on changing it. I think we should always be working on our weaknesses whatever they may be. I don’t think that we should have the attitude that we can’t change–I think Christianity–Catholicism in particular–calls us to radical change. It is a change that I am continually working on–with greater and lesser degrees of success. I think we are called to be transformed by Christ-- not to sit around saying this is how I am and I can’t change. None of this is meant imply that this change is easy or that I, myself, don’t struggle with it. Change is never easy, but that doesn’t mean we aren’t called to continually change as we try to conform our lives to Christ–unless maybe one is already a saint. Me – I’m just hoping to get to purgatory. I’m just hoping not to be pulled down by a relatively easy life and what I fear are large sins of omission. I pray that the glacial pace of my change is not my downfall–that I am not all talk and no action.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[kozlosap]

Agreed. I have ADHD and get distracted pretty easily.

I can’t carry a tune for anything! I love singing, but I’m sure the people who are around me in Mass may not care for my version of singing.

. Me too with the singing and ADHD. I think that I’m more of a homily snob though. I’ve attended a very large Jesuit parish for many years and I’m very used to thought provoking and heart opening homilies. The one time I attended a FSSP mass, the homily concerned indulgences. Indulgences??? Like I said, I’m a snob.

 

[clem456]

When I was a kid I came from a parish that was/is “stuck in the 70s” with all-contemporary all the time mentality, swaying and holding hands in the pews, tie dye, priest playing guitar at the altar etc. I found this so distasteful at the time that I left that church (age 18) and didn’t attend another until I found the extraordinary form at age 20. With that I found a group of people who, although nice, gave me plenty of polarizing literature to read (Matt, Ferrara, Vennari, etc) including some very blatant anti-Semitic stuff. For a few years I strictly attended the EF, as I had had the OF leave that bad taste in my mouth. I became disenchanted with all the fringe SSPX type stuff as I noticed that everything was always negative or slanted negative, and it was never that we were “one holy Catholic church” it was always sort of a “them against us” mentality. This is when I started listening to EWTN and going to daily (OF) Mass (I figured that if I go to an early Mass I tend to avoid any type of music or whatnot that I would find distracting).

My problem that I struggle with is that I get distracted if there is something in the liturgy that isn’t exactly right. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a blatant abuse, it could be an ad-libbed phrasing, bad sermon, clapping in church, etc. I HATE it. I don’t want to be a nit-picker but it seems to be my cross now. I have found it useful some times to just close my eyes (seeing everyone raising arms during the Lord’s Prayer drives me nuts). I know that there is nothing wrong with the validity of 99% of the Masses I am at but I just find myself so easily distracted that my mind wanders. I’m looking for strategies to combat this. I try to mentally picture Our Lord’s Passion or repeat in my mind the names of the people whose intentions I am remembering. That seems to help, but sometimes I am just completely thrown off guard (One time I ended up at a Mass with electric guitars and drums, the Mass was perfectly fine but the music just kept bringing me back to those problems I had a decade ago).

It is a cross. We all have a unique cross.
Bland music bothers me at times as well. I offer it up.

 

[Paganus]

My problem that I struggle with is that I get distracted if there is something in the liturgy that isn’t exactly right. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a blatant abuse, it could be an ad-libbed phrasing, bad sermon, clapping in church, etc. I HATE it. I don’t want to be a nit-picker but it seems to be my cross now. I have found it useful some times to just close my eyes (seeing everyone raising arms during the Lord’s Prayer drives me nuts).

Mother Angelica spoke about attending an “electric church” - because when you go there, you get a shock.

When something at the NO Mass is distracting you from your purpose, you should pray about it and strive to overcome your distraction.

But when the environment is completely overwhelming, I have found it useful to kneel and pray through the entire NO Mass. Pray for whatever is flipping your lid, but do not get angry about it. Pray for all the people at the Mass and pray that your suffering will benefit the Holy Souls in Purgatory.

And pray that you will have the privilege to attend an MEF in the near future.

 

[27lw]

Doctrinally–yes. I’m not sure I’d phrase it that way with regard to discipline and liturgy. I’m not sure the Church promulgates disciplines or designs the liturgy because it thinks that’s how God wants us to worship him but rather because it thinks this is the best way for us to be drawn closer to God. The liturgy changes/adapts over time as the best way to draw people closer to God changes–as the culture changes old ways loose their effectiveness. ** The Church has always worked within the cultures where it is trying to spread the Gospel–adopting and transforming what it needed to to reach the people, to help them understand the Gospel message.** The Doctrine doesn’t change, the Gospel message doesn’t change but the best way to get the Gospel message to people, the best way to help them understand and live the Gospel, the best way for them to worship may.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,
The point in bold above - - one of my pet peeves! : )
Are you saying that the Church has historically changed the liturgy in mission territory? I issue you a friendly challenge - - please explain to me how the Church changed the Mass (pre-Vatican II) to adapt in mission territory.

I don’t think any examples exist – maybe you can convince me otherwise.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Hi Mark,
The point in bold above - - one of my pet peeves! : )
Are you saying that the Church has historically changed the liturgy in mission territory? I issue you a friendly challenge - - please explain to me how the Church changed the Mass (pre-Vatican II) to adapt in mission territory.

I don’t think any examples exist – maybe you can convince me otherwise.

I guess it would depend on what you mean by change as I am not sure it is what I meant – I wasn’t referring to wholesale change, nor to the Mass specifically–but you may take a look at the Jesuit missions in China and Japan and at the spread of the Church in Africa for starters. The Mass was translated into their languages as were the Scriptures–certain modes of dress were adopted as well as other customs. It was a very effective strategy and I think you’d be shocked at the number of Christians in these areas and how close China was to becoming a Christian nation. In other words their cultures and customs were respected and the Jesuits did not try to turn them into good little Europeans but rather into good adult Christians and it was very effective. It was the enemies of the Jesuits who killed their order and are responsible for the deChristianization China and other areas in the wake of their suppression. I don’t have any resources with me currently but I would refer you to Professor Philip Jenkins and his book The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity – the beginning portion of the book talks about the spread of Christianity and how the gains were made and then how they were lost.

So what do you mean by change? If you mean the liturgy being translated and celebrated in a native language in the mission territories rather than in Latin–then yes this was done routinely until the Jesuits were suppressed and dissolved and their hard work undone in their mission territories.

My next three weeks will be very busy but if I have more time to flesh out what I was talking about before then, I will.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[27lw]

Thanks Mark! I think these ideas are frequently thrown into a conversation, that the Church has always used inculturation, and people seem to assume that inculturation applied to the Mass itself. I just always wonder, how could that have possibly happened in the context of the Latin Tridentine Mass? I suspect it didn’t.
I will see if I can get my hands on the book you mention.
Thanks and peace back at ya! : )

 

[27lw]

So, here’s an interesting excerpt:

p. 32-33, of “The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity” by Philip Jenkins)

“Within a few years, Jesuits came under repeated attack for permitting the Chinese to worship ancestors, canonizing St. Confucius, and including the names of pagan gods in the translated scriptures. By 1704, the Vatican ruled decisively against the Society of Jesus, prohibiting the Chinese Rites and ordering the suppression of recent Bible translations. Henceforth, religious services were to be held strictly in Latin…The Chinese Rites debacle, and the cultural rigidity it symbolized, crippled the progress of Catholic mission worldwide for over a century.”

Okay - - fascinating! So there was some Chinese version of Mass, it sounds like.
I guess I can’t indulge in my pet peeve quite the same way anymore…