I received my ashes from a woman and I am confused

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FrDavid96 said:
Yes, a layperson can conduct the distribution of ashes outside of Mass. That’s not a problem, although that sort of thing should only be done if a priest or a deacon is not available. Only a priest or deacon can bless the ashes.

Nothing resembling a stole should ever be worn over an alb by a layperson. Since no such liturgical garment exists (semi-stole or quasi-stole) in Catholic usage, it is by that very fact not permitted. The Church defines liturgical vesture, and it is not for anyone to invent something else. It is especially problematic when such a garment has the appearance of a stole. Only a cleric wears a stole.
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So could what the OP is describing actually have happened at an ecumenical service?
 
InThePew said:
So could what the OP is describing actually have happened at an ecumenical service?
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This surely wasn’t one. If so the catholic part wouldn’t have been there. The woman referred to pope Francis as our Pope. So I am pretty sure it wasn’t, nor was it written anywhere.

Moreover, I doubt protestant minister wear the same kind of vestments, stoes included. But I may be wrong.
 
InThePew said:
So could what the OP is describing actually have happened at an ecumenical service?
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I don’t see the point of the question.

It was not an ecumenical service. Based on the description, it could not have been.

Could a Catholic woman be so dressed (“vested” really would be the word) at an ecumenical service? No. Since there is no such liturgical vestment as the OP describes, no one (no Catholic) could ever wear such a thing as if it were Catholic vesture.

If you mean the ashes part: could ashes be distributed at an ecumenical service? In theory, yes. Could a Catholic woman help to distribute ashes at such a service? Again, yes. But this was not described as an ecumenical service.
 
I wonder why the 2002 Roman Missal says the “priest” (sacerdos) imposes the ashes, instead of using a broader term or “the priest, or other minister…”

Dan
 
MarcoPG said:
Hello everyone,
Since there was no consacration, it is ok that someone else than a priest presides the rite.
It was no mass.
But from the vestments she used, she looked like a deacon, just the stole was inside out, may I say. If you like the two ends were on her back, not in front of her, and the part which should be on the shoulders and neck were on the side of her throat, resting on her chest and the stole itself retained on the 2 shoulders.

Why and when can a woman wear the stole? Does it need any permission from the bishop, or someone else? Could she be a noun?

Thank you
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Extraordinary ministers of communion may distribute ashes (like they do communion) at a mass.
I believe ashes may be distributed by lay persons outside a mass.

However, a lay person “blessing the ashes” and donning vestments…both sound very suspicious to me.
 
MarcoPG said:
This surely wasn’t one. If so the catholic part wouldn’t have been there. The woman referred to pope Francis as our Pope. So I am pretty sure it wasn’t, nor was it written anywhere.

Moreover, I doubt protestant minister wear the same kind of vestments, stoes included. But I may be wrong.
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Protestant ministers (including women) DO wear vestments.
 
MarcoPG said:
I said the same kind of vestments (implied as catholics do). 🙂 And I wanted to write stoles not stoes obviously.
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Yes, I understand…I attended a Methodist wedding where the pastor (a woman) was vested very similar way to a catholic priest or deacon.
 
MacQ said:
Yes, I understand…I attended a Methodist wedding where the pastor (a woman) was vested very similar way to a catholic priest or deacon.
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Fair enough. Just the person in question is catholic. So what do I do? I would report this.
 
dans0622 said:
I wonder why the 2002 Roman Missal says the “priest” (sacerdos) imposes the ashes, instead of using a broader term or “the priest, or other minister…”

Dan
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You can read the 2011 rite here (PDF), English Translation of the Third Edition of the Roman Missal, © 2011, USCCB:

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dioceseofgrandrapids.org%2FDocuments%2FWorship_Ash_Wed_Svc_Leader_Guide.pdf&ei=jVPmVMHqBsqwggStvYHwCQ&usg=AFQjCNF8G0B8CNG_8GSgviNTSttIqXwxNQ&bvm=bv.86475890,d.eXY&cad=rja
 
Memaw said:
It won’t ever happen no matter how many “movements” there are. When will they ever learn!!!??? God Bless, Memaw
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Probably not, however I can see where the canon law states that deacons do not act in the person of Christ the Head. Historically, we had deaconesses in the early Church.

CIC Can. 1009 § 3:Those who are constituted in the order of the episcopate or the presbyterate receive the mission and capacity to act in the person of Christ the Head, whereas deacons are empowered to serve the People of God in the ministries of the liturgy, the word and charity.
 
Vico said:
Probably not, however I can see where the canon law states that deacons do not act in the person of Christ the Head. Historically, we had deaconesses in the early Church.

CIC Can. 1009 § 3:Those who are constituted in the order of the episcopate or the presbyterate receive the mission and capacity to act in the person of Christ the Head, whereas deacons are empowered to serve the People of God in the ministries of the liturgy, the word and charity.
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There were deaconesses, but it didn’t mean ordained women, as the Catholic Encyclopedia says. Paul is referring to deaconesses in the sense of servant, pretty much like a noun in many cases, and in some cases, they would help in the liturgy like an akolyte would, for instance for a baptism of a woman, since full immersion (and naked) was common practice.

They weren’t ordained because of the role they had. I think it was Tertulllian, I read in the same article, that spoke against a woman which was ordained. You can surely find the articleon New Advent.

Still, what the woman did yesterday was more than just giving the ashes. Can a lay person or a deacon only do the sign of the Cross on the ashes and say the formula?

And I must say I was relieved as I saw that she wouldn’t consacrate anything (or only try to, as she wouldn’t be able).
 
MacQ said:
Extraordinary ministers of communion may distribute ashes (like they do communion) at a mass.
I believe ashes may be distributed by lay persons outside a mass.

However, a lay person “blessing the ashes” and donning vestments…both sound very suspicious to me.
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There is no connection, none whatsoever, between being an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and distributing ashes. The two functions are entirely un-related.
 
dans0622 said:
I wonder why the 2002 Roman Missal says the “priest” (sacerdos) imposes the ashes, instead of using a broader term or “the priest, or other minister…”

Dan
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Actually, there’s a straightforward answer. The Missal articulates what happens at Mass. Since a priest is required for Mass to occur, the is no point in the Missal explaining what might happen if a priest is not present.

The Book of Blessings, on the other hand, does deal with situations when a priest might not be present. That book allows for either deacons or even laypersons to impose ashes in the absence of a priest.
 
Vico said:
Probably not, however I can see where the canon law states that deacons do not act in the person of Christ the Head. Historically, we had deaconesses in the early Church.

CIC Can. 1009 § 3:Those who are constituted in the order of the episcopate or the presbyterate receive the mission and capacity to act in the person of Christ the Head, whereas deacons are empowered to serve the People of God in the ministries of the liturgy, the word and charity.
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Yes, the early Church did have deaconesses.

However, it is misleading to simply state that without also qualifying that the deaconesses were most certainly (undoubtedly) not female deacons.
 
FrDavid96 said:
There is no connection, none whatsoever, between being an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and distributing ashes. The two functions are entirely un-related.
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Sorry. I should have said that lay people can administer ashes, just as they can serve communion (as EM’s)
 
MarcoPG said:
There were deaconesses, but it didn’t mean ordained women, as the Catholic Encyclopedia says. Paul is referring to deaconesses in the sense of servant, pretty much like a noun in many cases, and in some cases, they would help in the liturgy like an akolyte would, for instance for a baptism of a woman, since full immersion (and naked) was common practice.

They weren’t ordained because of the role they had. I think it was Tertulllian, I read in the same article, that spoke against a woman which was ordained. You can surely find the articleon New Advent.

Still, what the woman did yesterday was more than just giving the ashes. Can a lay person or a deacon only do the sign of the Cross on the ashes and say the formula?

And I must say I was relieved as I saw that she wouldn’t consacrate anything (or only try to, as she wouldn’t be able).
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The following is from From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles (2002), published by the International Theological Commission. (Note also that there was a change made to canon law after publication, in 2009, to clarify that deacons do **not **act in the person of Christ.)“The doctrinal position in favour of the sacramentality of the diaconate is broadly speaking the majority opinion of theologians from the twelfth century to the present day and it is taken for granted in the practise of the Church and in most documents of the Magisterium; it is upheld by those who defend the permanent diaconate (for celibate or married people) and constitutes an element which includes a large number of the propositions in favour of the diaconate for women.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html
Who can do the blessing will vary with the blessing rite. For example:

The 1989 Book of Blessings has in Chapter 24:Order for the Blessing of Tools or Other Equipment for Work

921 The present order may be used by a priest or deacon. It may also be used by a layperson, who follows the rites and prayers designated for a lay minister.
 
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