I recently found out some of my relatives are Baha'i.

[dianaiad]

Diana, what fair wind blows you here?

I’m a non-Catholic in the “Non-Catholic religions” forum. Seems to be the appropriate place to be. As you can see, I’ve been here awhile now.

CharlesDarwin’s (the poster’s, not the naturalist’s) friends had no right to force/pressure him into accepting their ‘beliefs’. But CharlesDarwin has no right to stop coolcatholicguy from sharing his beliefs with his Baha’i relatives, which was what he was suggesting in the OP.

I certainly did not see that he was attempting to do that. It is true; people have the absolute right to share their faith, whatever it might be, with others. Well, they have that right in the USA; freedom of speech and all that, though that right seems to be eroding. However, the right to free speech is not the same as the right to be listened to…and if one has the right to share ones beliefs, those in earshot have the equal right to express their opinions regarding that sharing. Doing so is not abrogating one’s freedom, or rights. CD made absolutely no reference to HIS attempt to share his unbelief, after all; he simply reacted to those who insisted upon sharing their beliefs with him after he asked them to stop. One’s freedom of association is supposed to be as sacrosanct as one’s freedom of speech.

If you had non-LDS relatives, wouldn’t you want to share your faith with them? Granted, I’m sure you wouldn’t ‘push’ it on them, but would you really consider their beliefs as objectively ‘true’ as LDS beliefs, if they were, say, Baha’i or secular humanism?

That part of their beliefs which are true remain true no matter what they surround that truth with, Zdon: for instance, all those who believe that it is evil to commit murder believe the same truth I do, no matter what religion, faith…or non-faith…they have other wise. As to how I feel about their rights to make up their own minds about this, surely someone as confident as you regarding what you ‘know’ about our beliefs and history is aware of the 11th Article of Faith, yes?

As to whether I think it’s OK to share one’s beliefs with others, well, yeah. I welcome all who share their beliefs with me (as long as they are sharing THEIR beliefs, not insulting and demeaning mine)…and I was a missionary, too, once upon a time.

Threats of hell and damnation were exactly what I DID NOT want to bring into this.

Ok by me. Wouldn’t work anyway, since the LDS version of both don’t seem to march with everybody else’s…at least not with those who envision scenes out of Dante.

But if you are determined to see the worst in my every post, so be it.

zdon, I try very hard not to commit eisegesis, as a general rule. I will admit that the few posts from you that address my beliefs specifically rather made me want to invite you to share a Family Home Evening the way my Father and I used to…in the deep Idaho Fall woods, hunting deer, discussing deep philosophical thoughts over really good dutch oven cooking…while I thought really hard about whether to let you share the mosquito netting.

Yours in contrition,
zdon

 

[arthra]

As a Baha’i allow me to make a few comments…

From my experience I would say we Baha’is get along fairly well with Christians… My in-laws are Christians and have come to accept us as Baha’is. They particpate in some of our celebrations and helped us with the decorations and entertainment when my wife and I were married…in our turn we particpate in their Christmas and Easter holidays.

Baha’is respect Christianity and believe the Bible was inspired… We believe we all worship the same God and we accept Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God… We believe the soul begins at conception and we accept that Jesus’ birth was miraculous. We believe Jesus was crucified and died on the cross and that He was spiritually resurrected.

Baha’i Prayer Books have prayers that were revealed by Baha’u’llah, the Bab and Abdul-Baha, the oldest Son of Baha’u’llah… You may find them having similar ideals and devotional language to your own.

The differences probably lie in how we see the Bab (Gate) and Baha’u’llah as the fulffillment of prophecies in the Bible and the Qur’an…

 

[zdon011]

My dear Diana,
Thank you for your prompt reply. I think over-quoting’s discouraged (yes, I’ve had reason to review THE RULES), so I’ll try not to clog up this topic with personal messaging.

I’m a non-Catholic in the “Non-Catholic religions” forum.

Me too, since I’m officially a ‘Protestant’ to most of the good folk here.

That part of their beliefs which are true remain true no matter what they surround that truth with, Zdon: for instance, all those who believe that it is evil to commit murder believe the same truth I do, no matter what religion, faith…or non-faith…they have other wise.

Yes, but usually it’s not basic morality that’s at issue, is it? And questions of morality can also be specific to particular faith traditions.

…surely someone as confident as you regarding what you ‘know’ about our beliefs and history is aware of the 11th Article of Faith, yes?

No, I’m not. But neither would I run crying to mummy if you took what I said about the LDS and applied it to Anglo-Catholicism.

I will admit that the few posts from you that address my beliefs specifically rather made me want to invite you to share a Family Home Evening the way my Father and I used to…in the deep Idaho Fall woods, hunting deer, discussing deep philosophical thoughts over really good dutch oven cooking…

I’m sure I deserved worse

while I thought really hard about whether to let you share the mosquito netting.

Spare yourself, I’d bring my own. I’d already be intruding on a ‘Family Home Meeting’.

Blessings,
zdon (not important enough for upper-case zed)

 

[dianaiad]

My dear Diana,
Thank you for your prompt reply. I think over-quoting’s discouraged (yes, I’ve had reason to review THE RULES), so I’ll try not to clog up this topic with personal messaging.

Me too, since I’m officially a ‘Protestant’ to most of the good folk here.

Yes, but usually it’s not basic morality that’s at issue, is it? And questions of morality can also be specific to particular faith traditions.

They can…but I know few modern religions that do NOT call those basic moral teachings that you and I take for granted ‘true.’

There is another truth that almost all modern religions share: “there is a deity.” Quite a few share this “He loves us.” (or ‘she.’) Many share “Christ is His Son.” and “He is the Savior/Messiah.” These things remain true no matter who believes them. This is a problem many people seem to have with people who don’t share their own faith: often it’s not the beliefs that define the people, but the people that define the beliefs…in other words, for people like Jack Chick (for instance) Catholic beliefs are not false because the beliefs are false; they are false because Catholics believe them. Of course, he generally doesn’t get Catholic beliefs RIGHT, but that’s a different matter. I would use the opposition to your own faith tradition as an example if I knew what that was…I’m sure you know of people who criticise your own faith in this way.

No, I’m not.

The 11th Article of Faith reads thusly:

“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

You can read the rest of them here:

Don’t worry, it’s a short read, and not even in Greek.

But neither would I run crying to mummy if you took what I said about the LDS and applied it to Anglo-Catholicism.

The proper place to protest moderator decisions is to write to the moderators. That’s what they volunteered for, bless 'em. By the way, I got yelled at too, but you are the only one talking about it here. We have all (I think, anyway…I suppose there are quite a few Saints out there who haven’t come afoul of the moderators at one time or another–shoot, even I managed to avoid getting clobbered for a full year) been on the recieving end of warnings and infractions. It will happen to you again, I gaurantee it. Welcome to CAF; it’s the price we pay for not being alt.religion.mormon or alt.christian.religion.roman.catholic.

…and we should be VERY grateful!

I’m sure I deserved worse

Spare yourself, I’d bring my own. I’d already be intruding on a ‘Family Home Meeting’.

Blessings,
zdon (not important enough for upper-case zed)

That’s “Family Home Evening,” and we are encouraged to invite friends. FHE’s are rather fun, actually. At least, they are supposed to be. They are about family and being together.

 

[Bengoshi]

Let them live their life as they see fit…trust me in our culture they are well aware of everything you could possibly tell them. if you try to convert them you will only push them away

i have pushed many “friends” away simply because i got tired of being told i needed to change who i was “or else”

Have you read this book:

amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0684834936

Also read Lee Strobel’s “Case For a Creator”

 

[Bengoshi]

Ever since learning about the Bahai faith I have been among its admirers. What I especially like is Bahai respects for all religions. I don’t recall precisely, but I blieve they speak of nine - nine is sort of a ‘sacred’ number.

 Adamant Christians, especially militant Catholics and Protestant fundamentalists, could benefit from adopting some of the tolerance for other beliefs which Bahais I know embrace. I don't agree with Bahaism, but give it an A+ for its open hearts and minds.

 Religion should serve as a bridge rather than a barrier.

I think there’s a problem with this way of thinking. We can be tolerant but it doesn’t mean that they are not wrong. Truth, by definition and its nature, is exclusive. Two or more contradictory statements/teachings cannot all be true. We should call a spade, a spade. Baha’i may be a form of post-modernist religious thinking.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I think there’s a problem with this way of thinking. We can be tolerant but it doesn’t mean that they are not wrong. Truth, by definition and its nature, is exclusive. Two or more contradictory statements/teachings cannot all be true. We should call a spade, a spade. Baha’i may be a form of post-modernist religious thinking.

^ QFT

 

[CharlesDarwin]

Have you read this book:

amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0684834936

Also read Lee Strobel’s “Case For a Creator”

yes I have read both sides of the argument, neither side has proof…but only one side makes claims of knowledge…the other side…my side…simply says we dont know

 

[CharlesDarwin]

And why don’t you quit pushing your false moral relativism on those who seek to live the Gospel?

when did i do that? I am all for people living their lives as they see fit within reason ie i dont support child abuse or slavery

but if YOU push your religion on me then you best bet ill push back

 

[Bengoshi]

yes I have read both sides of the argument, neither side has proof…but only one side makes claims of knowledge…the other side…my side…simply says we dont know

That’s good. I’ll just pray that God would lead you to the discovery and realization of the Truth then. God bless!

 

[zdon011]

Baha’is respect Christianity and believe the Bible was inspired… We believe we all worship the same God and we accept Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God… We believe the soul begins at conception and we accept that Jesus’ birth was miraculous. We believe Jesus was crucified and died on the cross and that He was spiritually resurrected.
…The differences probably lie in how we see the Bab (Gate) and Baha’u’llah as the fulffillment of prophecies in the Bible and the Qur’an…

Good for you, Arthra. I hope Our Lord will be pleased to bring to the fullness of the Truth.

yes I have read both sides of the argument, neither side has proof…but only one side makes claims of knowledge…the other side…my side…simply says we dont know

What do you think about the Resurrection, then?
Seems there’ll be an awful lot of pushing where you are:coolinoff:

Re: Diana’s contributions;

often it’s not the beliefs that define the people, but the people that define the beliefs…in other words, for people like Jack Chick (for instance) Catholic beliefs are not false because the beliefs are false; they are false because Catholics believe them.

Yes. Jack Chick takes the extreme Protestant approach of personally defining who is/is not Christian…which, at last count, excluded anyone who was not a KJV-only Independent Baptist that had said the Sinner’s Prayer according to the Canon of Pope Jack.

By chance, I came across this (disturbingly close) parody of a Chick tract yesterday. If you’re familiar with the ‘weird fiction’ of H.P. Lovecraft, it’ll be worth a laugh:
esr.ibiblio.org/?p=135

I would use the opposition to your own faith tradition as an example if I knew what that was…I’m sure you know of people who criticise your own faith in this way.

I belong to the group within Anglicanism/Episcopalianism that tries to emphasize our continuity with our pre-Reformation Catholic heritage. We get shot at from both sides: Protestants call us ‘ritualists’ and ‘papalists’, and Roman Cath’s call us ‘wannabe Catholics’

The 11th Article of Faith reads thus:
“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

Noble sentiments, even if not from the pen of Aristophanes

The proper place to protest moderator decisions is to write to the moderators. That’s what they volunteered for, bless 'em. By the way, I got yelled at too, but you are the only one talking about it here. We have all (I think, anyway…I suppose there are quite a few Saints out there who haven’t come afoul of the moderators at one time or another–shoot, even I managed to avoid getting clobbered for a full year) been on the recieving end of warnings and infractions. It will happen to you again, I guarantee it. Welcome to CAF…and we should be VERY grateful!

Thanks. I had expected that my first offence for uncharity would be against atheists or social ‘liberals’. And I won’t pretend that I don’t wonder who reported me:nunchuk:

That’s “Family Home Evening,” and we are encouraged to invite friends. FHE’s are rather fun, actually. At least, they are supposed to be. They are about family and being together.

Lovely:hug1:

 

[dianaiad]

yes I have read both sides of the argument, neither side has proof…but only one side makes claims of knowledge…the other side…my side…simply says we dont know

“not knowing’ is a lot more reasonable than the general run of atheist argument that I get, which is 'well, we may not know what it is, but I sure know what it isn’t…and it isn’t God!”

 

[dianaiad]

Good for you, Arthra. I hope Our Lord will be pleased to bring to the fullness of the Truth.

What do you think about the Resurrection, then?
Seems there’ll be an awful lot of pushing where you are:coolinoff:

Re: Diana’s contributions;

Yes. Jack Chick takes the extreme Protestant approach of personally defining who is/is not Christian…which, at last count, excluded anyone who was not a KJV-only Independent Baptist that had said the Sinner’s Prayer according to the Canon of Pope Jack.

By chance, I came across this (disturbingly close) parody of a Chick tract yesterday. If you’re familiar with the ‘weird fiction’ of H.P. Lovecraft, it’ll be worth a laugh:
esr.ibiblio.org/?p=135

I belong to the group within Anglicanism/Episcopalianism that tries to emphasize our continuity with our pre-Reformation Catholic heritage. We get shot at from both sides: Protestants call us ‘ritualists’ and ‘papalists’, and Roman Cath’s call us ‘wannabe Catholics’

Noble sentiments, even if not from the pen of Aristophanes

Thanks. I had expected that my first offence for uncharity would be against atheists or social ‘liberals’. And I won’t pretend that I don’t wonder who reported me.

Lovely:hug1:

As for who reported you, m’friend, you will never know…and if you hadn’t been so…forthcoming…about it in public, none of us would know that you had been, er, disciplined. The idea is, you protest privately to the moderators and make THEIR lives miserable, if you think you were ‘done wrong to,’ and then…you forget it and move on, hopefully having learned something.

In this case, perhaps it’s like being told to use your ‘indoor voice.’ It’s HARD to come in here from the outside, where insults and extreme disrespect are the norm and expected, to a place where you are not only expected to behave civilly, but will get your hand slapped if you don’t. Trust me, I have a list of infractions on my own record that shows my own difficulty with the idea!

Anyway, welcome in. Kind of a hard initiation, but I think you’ll do all right.

I do reserve the right to (civilly, of course) knock you through a window (politely) if you start insulting my faith without knowing what you are talking about again, though.

Always, and ever, with courtesy and tact.

Ok, I’ll TRY for that.

 

[zdon011]

I do reserve the right to (civilly, of course) knock you through a window (politely)…

Great oxymoron:whacky:

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad:

I do reserve the right to (civilly, of course) knock you through a window (politely)…

Great oxymoron
:whacky:

Metaphorically speaking, of course. As to oxymorons, I"m good at them. I learned from the anti [insert any belief system you like here], who are experts.

 

[zdon011]

I do reserve the right to (civilly, of course) knock you through a window (politely) if you start insulting my faith without knowing what you are talking about again, though.

To me there’s something perversely attractive (no doubt subjectively as well as objectively, you will say) about wimmin who threaten to push people out of windows, if only metaphorically
Ah, the crypto-Freudian allure of ‘Ladies Who Did’…of course, in real life this would be a nightmare:stretcher:
Perhaps I should get back to the topic:blush: