Well, my private speculation is that, given enough time and distance, some of his thinking can lead you there. I came out of a Campbellite church and ended up catholic, so to me, I see the links. Actually, Campbell’s grandfather (Archibald) was catholic, so his family wasn’t that many generations removed.In which case, he should have been a Roman Catholic.
Well, I think people tend to be a little loose in the application of this term, protestant. There is a historic definition that points to the reformation, and then there is a more broad use indicating christians not from a catholic or eastern church.
Here is your answer. The bible is used as a source of interpretation. Reason is used as a means by which actions are taken, ignoring history, and criticizing those that propose an alternative concluding that the interpretation, decision and criticism meet the need of the definition.
Absolutely! The Catholic Church!
For the Christian protestant, the authority is the holy bible, as you have readily admitted, not any one leader/Pastor of any one particular protestant church! OK. That makes each and every sola scriptura Christian, like yourself, (and me long ago) - ultimately the final authority when it comes to the interpretation of the Holy Bible - correct?
Please, forget about catholic theology for the moment for it matters naught to the sola scriptura advocate. So, you are admitting that there is no way for one to know if one has God’s authority to start a new church, other than citing scripture?
Joe370: I think that this might be true for christian churches (those that are more small-o orthodox), but there are groups that would claim to have new revelation, ranging from someone line Herbert W. Armstrong to Ellen White to Joseph Smith.
That’s a good point. Those dissenters, like Martin Luther, (who had a legitimate complaint at the time) - weren’t looking to leave the CC and start their own church; they were looking to reform from within the CC like Francis of Assisi or Catherine of Siena. Sadly, they failed to trust what scripture has to say about God’s perpetual guidance. I suppose it could have happened to anyone; after all we are all human. To be fair, viewing things from Luther’s perspective, trusting in God when your Church, regarding the indulgence abuses in his local area, seems to be falling down around you, I would imagine, would be a a real game changer and a real strain on ones trust and faith in God.
Hey J, isn’t sola scriptura (embraced by all protestants) - considered a new revelation stemming from the 16th century?
How can all of those denominations view themselves as “local expressions” of the Catholic Church, when said denominations express different beliefs, regarding certain teachings?
I wasn’t trying to start a fight brother. Just good ol’ fashion fun dialogue between catholic brothers and sister and protestant brothers and sisters…
You appear to suffer from the delusion that Protestant Christianity was the first time there was a difference between what the various branches and denominations of Christianity taught, believed, and practised.
What is your heresy?
The simplest date in 1054, because that is when the Pope formally renounced his acceptance of Orthodox Christianity, thereby creating a new church — the denomination now know as the Holy, Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic, Church of Christ.
That’s when the story about how the trad was founded during the Jurassic Period is told. Complete with changes in the esbats and sabbats, when the God and Goddess were replaced, and the Rede was refuted and reinstated. And the tale about the fight between the pink unicorn and the fuzzy bunny wabbit.
To address the original post, you have to know where authority in the religion comes from.
Nope, I’m not delusional regarding the aforementioned…
You know I am a catholic so that’s for you to decide…
So you believe that either one of the eastern orthodox churches or oriental churches, is the true church? Cool. Regarding Pope Leo IX, he had died before any east-west divide occurred and therefore he renounced nothing. His legate cardinal Humbert is the one who excommunicated Cerularius and Cerularius in return excommunicated him and the other legates that accompanied him. Neither the catholic church in the east nor the catholic church in the west created a new church. It’s as simple as: The one catholic church , in the 11th century, which was established by God, on Pentecost - divided in the 11th century. In other words: The EOC does not trace her lineage back to the apostolic age through the CC, nor does the CC trace her lineage back to the apostolic age through the EOC as is the case with all Protestant Churches.
Again, if this is when you believe the CC erred and became schismatic, then cool, but that wouldn’t make the CC a new church like the Lutheran church or the Baptist church, or any protestant church for that matter. The CC would still be, after the east-west schism, the church started on Pentecost, just as the EOC is still considered the church established in the first century. The hallmark of a new church is a church that lacks continuity with the apostolic age,(like me for example, starting a new church) - which is the case with all protestant churches.
Speaking of rabbit holes…LOL…
Religion in general or just Christianity? I am talking about Christianity only…
You didn’t answer the question but I will address yours:
Absolutely no sarcasm intended; just trying to understand…From my question you inferred that I am “fretting” over people who love God and His word and yet don’t go to my church? Not true; sorry you feel that way brother. Why can’t I ask a simple question and still love the idea of people living out the gospel in a real and effective manner by sharing the love of Christ and His word with those around them thereby changing the lives of those they meet for all eternity?
And that is one the many flaws of Protestanism: No church authority. The only claim many make is the Bible,but that is clearly false as well,since it was never taught from Jesus.
Taught by the Catholic Church centuries before any Protestant church existed,hence not a Protestant belief,but merely taken by Protestants.
And the Church Jesus founded,but NOT the Bible. No where does Scripture teach Scripture is the final authority…no where!
Why would God call you or any other mere human to found another church when His Son already founded His Church 2,000 years ago?
None of the above verses support or command others to found their own churches. Your interpretations are seriously flawed.
This was directed to joe370 but wow you totally failed to address any of the issues I presented. You just sidestepped them and responded with a diatribe. The bible is a historical accurate recording of Gods word and instruction to His people. You probably know the word Torah (law) itself means instruction that would lead one to believe that it is something God wants us to follow. Also 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. So tell me why again you disregard the clear meaning of scripture?Here is your answer. The bible is used as a source of interpretation. Reason is used as a means by which actions are taken, ignoring history, and criticizing those that propose an alternative concluding that the interpretation, decision and criticism meet the need of the definition.
I decide.
And why would you disregard Scripture when it clearly does not state scripture alone is the final authority? 2 Tim 3:16 is weak and has been debunked a million times over. No where did Paul write that verse in defense of Sola Scriptura.
Let me be even clearer we start a church by the call of Jesus. Just As Paul was called directly by God apart from the 12.Hey Jericho777…
I asked: By whose authority do I, (or anyone else) - have the right to start a church and call my church either the church founded by Jesus Christ or the church reformed by me via the authority of Jesus Christ?
To which you said:
You didn’t answer the question but I will address yours:
Ok, so none of the protestant churches are new churches per se, but rather groups of believers building up Jesus’ Mystical Body the Church, started by Jesus Christ alone on Pentecost?
There are no new churches therefore you and I, as the “called out ones” both belong to the same Body, occupying the enemy’s territory, and yet you reject certain teachings of the Church to which we both belong, or is it that I reject certain teachings of the church to which we both belong?
From my question you inferred that I am “fretting” over people who love God and His word and yet don’t go to my church? Not true; sorry you feel that way brother. Why can’t I ask a simple question and still love the idea of people living out the gospel in a real and effective manner by sharing the love of Christ and His word with those around them thereby changing the lives of those they meet for all eternity?
If that’s how you really feel then what’s the point of debating when it comes to Christianity? Protestants (like yourself) - and Catholics (like myself) - if you are right, should simply stop fretting over doctrinal differences and church affiliation, which would end all debates, once and for all…
And what does that prove? Numbers always climb and decline…and? You are pinning blame on the CC and that is not the root of the problem. Problem starts with those Catholics are who avid believers of relativism,materialism,etc,etc. They are not in need of Christ,but only what suits their personal agendas and egos…plain and simple.
Scripture is the word of God without question. By default it carries the most authority. Paul is telling Timothy to look to the scriptures to be his spiritual fountain of knowledge. When you find something better than the word of God for instruction please let me know.
No…God is THE authority. What you are claiming is that THE BIBLE is the final authority,thus by default it is the final authority and that my friend is false. I’ll ask again: