I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents...

[Nicea325]

Quote:

jericho777: Could you please give me a bible reference for this?

The Church is Christ’s Body.Paul’s use of the body as an image to describe the unity Christians have with Christ and each other is particularly vivid: “For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another” (Rom 12:4-5). The Lord alluded to this unity when he prayed, “May [they] be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one” (Jn 17:22-23). He used the analogy of himself as a vine and Christians as its branches to illustrate the organic bond Christians share (Jn 15:1-5).

The teaching that the Church is Christ’s Body is emphasized throughout the New Testament. See 1 Cor 10:16, 12:12-27; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 3:4-6, 4:4, 15, 25, 5:21-32; Col 1:18, 3:15; Heb 13:1-3.

So jericho777 may you please show me where Jesus taught the **written Word **is THE final authority and that Jesus is the Bible?

 

[jericho777]

The camp of Arius denied that Jesus was of the same substance as God, believing instead that Jesus was only the highest of created beings, and they, like you, based their believes on scripture alone. If the Trinitarian formula is so clearly spelled out in scripture then why don’t they agree with you and I?

And, if scripture alone, as opposed to the church, is the Christians final authority then how can you and I be certain that Arius was in fact wrong? Would you be willing to admit that perhaps Arius got it right and the catholic church got it wrong?

Did the CC have the right to declare Arianism a heresy?

Where does scripture clearly claim that the father and the holy spirit, or the son and the holy spirit are one, just as scripture clearly says that the father and the son are one?

The following words in red are a gloss and are found nowhere in in any of the Greek manuscripts.

"This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

This is what it actually says and what is found, rightfully so, in most bibles:

“This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

No person can understand God or the scriptures unless it is given them by the Holy Spirit. So it is not surprising there are heresies. Jesus even spoke in parables to limit understanding to those Luke 8:10a“The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to.”

Anyone has the right to call Arianism a heresy.

The Trinitarian baptismal formula holds the three as equal.

 

[jericho777]

Joe is correct and with Scripture alone we have Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Oneness Pentacostals denying the Trinity. Sola Scriptura, the Bible alone is responsible for this.

It is the fault of misinterpretation and not the bible itself.

 

[jericho777]

The gospel was so clear that many Jews tried to kill Paul wherever he went. It was so clear that Roman Judaizing Christians were trying to impose the Old Covenant. The gospel was so clear that Judaizing Christians thought they were descendants of Abraham and Paul corrected them to understand that they were descendants of Adam. The gospel was so clear that Judaizing Christians had to be told that they too were under the power of sin and the Gentiles without Circumsion were outside the covenant but of The Covenant and that God was God of all Jew, Gentile and Barbarian. Pretty clear in reading what you get.

As I have said before it is the Spirit who gives understanding. Remember God blinded the eyes of the Jews for our benefit so it is no surprise they were in opposition to the gospel.

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
Joe is correct and with Scripture alone we have Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Oneness Pentacostals denying the Trinity. Sola Scriptura, the Bible alone is responsible for this.

It is the fault of misinterpretation and not the bible itself.

And if all are reading the same Bible, what do you think is the cause of that misinterpretation?

 

[jericho777]

Quote:

So jericho777 may you please show me where Jesus taught the **written Word **is THE final authority and that Jesus is the Bible?

What did Jesus quote from as His authority many, many times as He spoke in the gospels? The bible.

 

[joe370]

No person can understand God or the scriptures unless it is given them by the Holy Spirit. So it is not surprising there are heresies. Jesus even spoke in parables to limit understanding to those Luke 8:10a“The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to.”

Anyone has the right to call Arianism a heresy.

The Trinitarian baptismal formula holds the three as equal.

I didn’t know there were certain sola scriptura proponents that cannot understand scriptures because the understanding was not given to them by the Holy Spirit? How can one know who has it and who doesn’t?

Jericho, if scripture alone, as opposed to any one church, is the Christians final authority then how can you and I be certain that Arius was in fact wrong? After all, he to deferred to scripture alone to arrive at his conclusions!

If SS, and not the church, was, and continues to be the Christians final authority, and everything should be tested against scripture alone, then would you be willing to admit that perhaps Arius, another SS proponent, got it right and the catholic church got it wrong regarding the Trinity?

 

[jericho777]

And if all are reading the same Bible, what do you think is the cause of that misinterpretation?

Their eyes have not been opened by God.

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
Joe is correct and with Scripture alone we have Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Oneness Pentacostals denying the Trinity. Sola Scriptura, the Bible alone is responsible for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
It is the fault of misinterpretation and not the bible itself.

And if all are reading the same Bible, what do you think is the cause of that misinterpretation?

Their eyes have not been opened by God.

And how would you know that?

This is what you said in a previous post…"That’s my point it’s not shocking that by reading scripture you can see these doctrines apart from someone telling you so.

So if they read the Scripture too, how come they are not coming to see the same doctrines as you? How come their eyes are not being opened by God like you do?

What set you apart from those whose eyes were not opened by God? But we all read the same scripture, right?

How come misinterpretation happens when reading Scripture? As you stated, reading Scripture should open one’s eyes…why is there misinterpretation?

 

[pablope]

What did Jesus quote from as His authority many, many times as He spoke in the gospels? The bible.

Really? Which Bible? There was no Bible as you know it today at the time of Jesus. And isn’t the Gospel Christ himself?

 

[jericho777]

I didn’t know there were certain sola scriptura proponents that cannot understand scriptures because the understanding was not given to them by the Holy Spirit? How can one know who has it and who doesn’t?

Jericho, if scripture alone, as opposed to any one church, is the Christians final authority then how can you and I be certain that Arius was in fact wrong? After all, he to deferred to scripture alone to arrive at his conclusions!

If SS, and not the church, was, and continues to be the Christians final authority, and everything should be tested against scripture alone, then would you be willing to admit that perhaps Arius, another SS proponent, got it right and the catholic church got it wrong regarding the Trinity?

Because one claims to be something does not make them so.

Seeing that scripture is the word of God makes it a source above all other source for religious instruction. Are any churches allowed to contradict the scriptures? If any other source is not the word of God why consider it for religious instruction? Augustine of Hippo is considered to be the father of Calvinism and your church don’t believe that. What was his source of inspiration?

It is the church’s duty to correctly interpret scripture. Your analogy is poor; Arius denied many verses to get to that point. It is clear he denied the principals of SS to come to his conclusion.

 

[jericho777]

And how would you know that?

This is what you said in a previous post…"That’s my point it’s not shocking that by reading scripture you can see these doctrines apart from someone telling you so.

So if they read the Scripture too, how come they are not coming to see the same doctrines as you? How come their eyes are not being opened by God like you do?

What set you apart from those whose eyes were not opened by God? But we all read the same scripture, right?

How come misinterpretation happens when reading Scripture? As you stated, reading Scripture should open one’s eyes…why is there misinterpretation?

I’m not saying I invented those doctrines just that I do see them for myself. Not like someone telling me they are there but I am unable to see them for myself. Do you think God hides the truth of His word from some? God’s reasons for hiding His word from some is in His sovereign will.

It is only by grace that any are able to understand God’s word.

 

[joe370]

Jericho…

Because one claims to be something does not make them so.

Seeing that scripture is the word of God makes it a source above all other source for religious instruction.

I think we are getting somewhere, I hope. :newidea:So, the word of God is a source above all other source for religious instruction and “it is the church’s duty to correctly interpret scripture” as you have already stated?

The CCC agrees with you but they also agree with Augustine regarding tradition; see below: "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God.”

Perhaps that is why you and I can trust that the CC properly discerned which writings were to be included in the list of the sacred book and which writings were not…?

Augustine of Hippo is considered to be the father of Calvinism and your church don’t believe that. What was his source of inspiration?

Scripture, tradition and his belief in the authority of the CC to correctly interpret/discern both!

Augustine:

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, ‘I do not believe’? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so” (Against the Letter of Mani Called ‘The Foundation’ 5:6).

 

[pablope]

I’m not saying I invented those doctrines just that I do see them for myself.

 

[CopticChristian]

Because one claims to be something does not make them so.

Seeing that scripture is the word of God makes it a source above all other source for religious instruction. Are any churches allowed to contradict the scriptures? If any other source is not the word of God why consider it for religious instruction? Augustine of Hippo is considered to be the father of Calvinism and your church don’t believe that. What was his source of inspiration?

It is the church’s duty to correctly interpret scripture. Your analogy is poor; Arius denied many verses to get to that point. It is clear he denied the principals of SS to come to his conclusion.

OK then how do we know that what one is reading is truly Scripture. This must be sure otherwise because one claims that something is Scripture does not make it so as you say. This is the first point that must be answered.

Then once we establish that we have surety of what Scripture is agreed on by all by the same method then we can look at what a Church is. How do we define a Church because one claims that something is a Church does not make it so. This is the next point.

If any other source is not the word of God begs the question that you have established the first point. You must first establish the first point to declare your third point.

Augustine is considered to be the father of Calvinism. Calvin is the father of Calvinism. To declare Augustine the father of Calvinism there would need to be Calvinist that can trace their lineage from Augustine to Calvin. If Augustine was the father of Calvinism then Calvinism is based on a man and not Scripture.

What was “his” source of inspiration. To whom does “his” refer? To Augustine or Calvin?

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea:

So jericho777 may you please show me where Jesus taught the written Word is THE final authority and that Jesus is the Bible?

What did Jesus quote from as His authority many, many times as He spoke in the gospels? The bible.

Really? The bible is the final authority? Then show me where Jesus explicitly stated THE BIBLE is the FINAL AUTHORITY? Second,tell me which Bible Jesus used? The Jews did not have a fixed canon for the OT prior to Jesus or Jesus life time. Your position is pure conjecture without any substance to back it up.

 

[jericho777]

Jericho…



I think we are getting somewhere, I hope. :newidea:So, the word of God is a source above all other source for religious instruction and “it is the church’s duty to correctly interpret scripture” as you have already stated?

The CCC agrees with you but they also agree with Augustine regarding tradition; see below: "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God.”

Perhaps that is why you and I can trust that the CC properly discerned which writings were to be included in the list of the sacred book and which writings were not…?

Scripture, tradition and his belief in the authority of the CC to correctly interpret/discern both!

Augustine:

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, ‘I do not believe’? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so” (Against the Letter of Mani Called ‘The Foundation’ 5:6).

I’m glad we agree too but I don’t agree it has been properly interpreted.

I highlighted Augustine to make a point that he was a doctor of the church yet the church doesn’t agree with him on certain things. If they thought he was in error why didn’t they correct him? How come you don’t agree with him on Calvinism?

Don’t believe it just because someone says so. Verify by scripture!

 

[joe370]

I’m glad we agree too but I don’t agree it has been properly interpreted.

I highlighted Augustine to make a point that he was a doctor of the church yet the church doesn’t agree with him on certain things. If they thought he was in error why didn’t they correct him? How come you don’t agree with him on Calvinism?

Don’t believe it just because someone says so. Verify by scripture!

Well, we agree that the church is the rightful interpreter of scripture, so that’s something.

Regarding Augustine, What are those certain errors that the church left unchecked???

 

[joe370]

Really? The bible is the final authority? Then show me where Jesus explicitly stated THE BIBLE is the FINAL AUTHORITY? Second,tell me which Bible Jesus used? The Jews did not have a fixed canon for the OT prior to Jesus or Jesus life time. Your position is pure conjecture without any substance to back it up.

Jericho has stated that it is the church’s duty to correctly interpret scripture.

 

[jericho777]

jericho777;8460138:

And how did you come the point that you are able to see them? And why are those in the same boat as you are not able to see them like you do?

Well…previously you proclaimed you could see them for yourself…now here, you are saying you are unable to see them for yourself…???

Let us go back to what you originally said…“Their eyes have not been opened by God”…

Let me give a real life situation that plays continuously…there are two christians 1 and 2…both baptized, etc…full of faith…and both read the Scripture…read a passage in Scripture…but come to different conclusions and meanings and interpretations…so who’s eyes were opened by God? Two cannot be right…I assume you will agree…so which one?

So God will keep one in the dark and one will be in the light? Is this how God works?

Or does God want us all to come into His light? And if we are all in God’s light…how come there is misinterpretation?

And how do you reconcile this statement of yours with this previous statement…“God’s reasons for hiding His word from some is in His sovereign will”…isn’t this kind of contradicting yourself?

You say God gives us the grace to understand…then He would withhold it for some? Does not God will all to salvation?

Or are you saying God will give grace to each one differently?

Pablope,
When I started reading scripture I wasn’t concerned with specifics per se. It was more of a broad brush learning generalities. Later when I became more interested in deeper things I looked deeper into the word.

Sorry it should read able not unable.

God wants all He has chosen to come to understanding. Are they disagreeing on the deity of Christ or how many elders to have in the local church? If you could solve that problem you would be wealthy. However there many factors surrounding a person’s understanding so it is anybody’s guess.

God gives the grace to understand to those whom He has chosen. Lk 8:10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,“‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’