I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents...

[joe370]

No, each and every peron who is “born by the Spirit” (refer John 3:3-5) can be led by the Spirit (refer 1 John 2:27). Not everybody who is a member of a religious movement that proclaims Jesus is “born again”, although, of course, this is what they are being taught (by those who themselves are not born again). Membership or baptism into an organization means nothing in terms of being “born of the Spirit”.

So each and every person who is “born by the Spirit” is guided by the holy spirit into all truth doctrinally speaking?

 

[Marybeloved]

I read that the Eastern Orthodox believe that J.C. began the Eastern Orthodox Church in 33 BC and that the RC Church began in 1054 when it split from the true Church (the Eastern Orthodox Church) founded by J. C.

Yes, and the SSPX and Sedevancatists believe that they are the true church founded by J.C in 33 AD and that the Catholic Church headed now by B16 began to exist in the 1960’s when it split from the true Catholic Church (theirs) at the 2nd Vatican Council. Jesus identified his Church clearly in the scriptures:…Thou art Peter (Cephas/rock) and upon this rock I will build my Church. We have many Bishops that can trace their way back to the Apostles as do many Apostolic churches, but only one line leads back to this foundation in Peter’s own bishopric. I think you know which one it is .

Peace!

 

[gerhardc]

Yup. I said that I was beginning to believe in the true presence in the Eucharist and the Immaculate Conception, and they basically excommunicated me.

Just shows you how people can focus on less important issues. Of course, Catholics don’t believe this is a *minor *issue. Actually, me neither. Catholics believe Jesus is talking about normal bread becoming His actual body. For Catholics John 7 speaks about a physical transformation. I respect that view. I can see how some can think this way, but it, unfortunately, is wrong. No, Jesus’ Person represents **truth **- those who partake of the **Truth **are set free. The way you partake of Truth is to believe His word: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14). Also, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed” (John 8:31). So, Jesus is saying, if you believe my truth you will live. Some take that as meaning we need to actually eat His flesh.

(KJV) “And also l his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Sorry, I don’t see it friend.
Are you actually suggesting that Peter is one of those who were considered untaught and unstable, twisting things…? :bigyikes:

No.

gerhardc: Paul did not see Peter as the head of the church.
Paul doesn’t tell us one way or the other.

By the same token, neither does Peter tell us one way or the other.

gerhardc: I have had no answer to try and refute the following definition of the Body of Christ, the Church?: he or she who is reborn (refer John 3:3-5), he or she who is obedient to His word (refer 1 John 2:3), he or she who is led by the Holy Spirit (refer Romans 8:14).

Why would I refute scripture? Every catholic agrees with those passages. I have had no answers or refutations to the following:

Really good news! Can somebody give me an Amen? (just a joke!). Or are there some that disagree that the Body of Christ are those, not that, which are born again, obey His word and are led by His Spirit? The rest, concerning ‘bells and smells’ does not pertain to being a member of His Body. There are members of His Body in the Catholic movement as much as there are members of His Body in the Pentecostal movement. Largely only the style of worship (and perhaps the role within the Body) differs.

So. Looks like Paul was wrong about Peter: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe."

Why would I refute scripture? Every catholic agrees with those passages. I have had no answers or refutations to the following:
“…if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

Very clear that its **not **talking about an organization or any other physical thing for that matter: "For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but [as true followers of Christ we are all] fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:18-20) (my emphasis). Refer above what a “follower of Christ” looks like (John 8:31). :yup:

 

[gerhardc]

So each and every person who is “born by the Spirit” is guided by the holy spirit into all truth doctrinally speaking?

That’s what the Bible says. The choice to believe it is ours as much as the choice to be born again is ours too.

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by gerhardc View Post
Scripture itself says who should interpret it,

I’ll repeat post #520 for your benefit. Originally Posted by gerhardc: First, PR, you have to be born again. That follows **repentance **(from your sins as well as your man-made attempts to please God), and faith towards God (refer Romans 10:9-10). Only faith pleases God, remember (refer Hebrews 11:5-6). If you can experientially testify hereof, then 1 John 2:27 may be relevant to you in being taught by the Holy Spirit what God is saying to you through His word. But, first, you have to be born again. If you cannot testify experientially of being born again, then, I fear, we are (still) living in two different kingdoms.

For those who are indeed born by the Spirit, this verse is true: "But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true - it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ." (1 John 2:27). If you are not born by the Spirit (refer John 3:3-5), then that verse (1 John 2:27) is not true for you.

In fact, that verse (1 John 2:27) says that not only is being taught by the Spirit a nice-to-have, it is a must-have if you want to be (and remain) in fellowship with Christ (who is the “Word of God” - refer John 1:1-5) Hard to believe? *“Faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of God” *(Romans 10:17).
Question PR, is John 3:3-5 true for you?

I apologize for being obtuse. But I can’t find the answer to my question in your post above.

Where does Scripture tell us who can interpret it, as you claim it does here in this post:

Originally Posted by gerhardc
Scripture itself says who should interpret it,

I think in my density it might be better if you said: Scripture says ______ should interpret Scripture, and it says it here (book, chapter and verse).

Thanks!

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, we see Tradition a secondary and accountable to scripture, not equal to it.

And yet you do acknowledge that it was Tradition which proclaimed which books belong to Scripture and which ancient Christian texts are not?

So, does it not stand to reason that if you acknowledge that Tradition holds a place in your communion, and that it existed before the Bible, that it cannot be secondary?

 

[gerhardc]

I apologize for being obtuse. But I can’t find the answer to my question in your post above.

You’re forgiven.

 

[joe370]

That’s what the Bible says. The choice to believe it is ours as much as the choice to be born again is ours too.

Where does the bible say: Regarding the teachings of Jesus, each and every person who is “born by the Spirit” is guided by the holy spirit into all truth?

 

[PRmerger]

You’re forgiven.

I thought only God can forgive sins.

BTW, I think I’ve asked about 4 times the same question, and your silence speaks volumes about your inability to find book, chapter and verse that tells us where Scripture tells us who can interpret it.

IOW: Scripture tells us NOWHERE who is supposed to interpret it. That is a man-made tradition that you’ve believed.

You heard it somewhere, from someone who heard it somewhere, from someone else who heard it, but none of you ever read it in a single page of the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

No, each and every peron who is “born by the Spirit” (refer John 3:3-5) can be led by the Spirit (refer 1 John 2:27).

So let’s take this scenario, gernard: there’s a Seventh Day Adventist, who has repented and been born again and accepted Christ as his personal Lord and savior, and there’s a Methodist who’s also repented and been born again and accepted Christ as his personal Lord and savior.

The SDA is adamant that the Holy Spirit has told him that Saturday is the day of worship.

The Methodist is just as adamant that the HS has told him that the day of worship is Sunday.

In your paradigm, which Holy Spirit is the true Holy Spirit?

 

[joe370]

Gerhardc

By the same token, neither does Peter tell us one way or the other.

That’s cool. Just scripture - correct?

Really good news! Can somebody give me an Amen? (just a joke!).

Amen…

There are members of His Body in the Catholic movement as much as there are members of His Body in the Pentecostal movement. Largely only the style of worship (and perhaps the role within the Body) differs.

You are petros and on this petra I will build my church, comprised of a catholic movement, Pentecostal movement, Baptist movement, Anglican movement etc etc… I always thought Jesus founded one church and then prayed that His Mystical be one and united.

Very clear that its **not **talking about an organization or any other physical thing for that matter:

Could you please define church? Just your own words! Perhaps then I will have a better understanding of why you believe what you believe and how you interpret ! Timothy 3:15?

 

[gerhardc]

I thought only God can forgive sins.

I try to stick with what’s written in the Bible: “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses”.(Mark 11:25) You are forgiven PR.

BTW, I think I’ve asked about 4 times the same question, and your silence speaks volumes about your inability to find book, chapter and verse that tells us where Scripture tells us who can interpret it.
IOW: Scripture tells us NOWHERE who is supposed to interpret it. That is a man-made tradition that you’ve believed.
You heard it somewhere, from someone who heard it somewhere, from someone else who heard it, but none of you ever read it in a single page of the Bible.

Nowhere? The Holy Spirit does not teach you all things, including the understanding of Scripture? Perhaps you are indeed being obtuse PR?

*"But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same **anointing teaches you concerning all *things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." (1 John 2:27)

If “the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, …” means nothing to you, then all the best to you.

 

[PRmerger]

I try to stick with what’s written in the Bible: “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses”.(Mark 11:25) You are forgiven PR.

Apology accepted.

And I have forgiven you for making a statement, however egregious about the Bible, that you cannot back up.

Scripture itself says who should interpret it

Do you acknowledge that you realize now that it is something not found in the pages of Scripture?

 

[gerhardc]

You are petros and on this petra I will build my church, comprised of a catholic movement, Pentecostal movement, Baptist movement, Anglican movement etc etc… I always thought Jesus founded one church and then prayed that His Mystical be one and united.

"But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” (Matt.16:23) - the same passage as “on this rock” (petra). Thus, is Jesus really saying Peter is Satan? No.

Could you please define church? Just your own words! Perhaps then I will have a better understanding of why you believe what you believe and how you interpret ! Timothy 3:15?

Maybe this will help:* “how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”* (1 Tim. 3:15). The “pillar” mentioned there - is it a physical pillar? No? Sure? Okay, then the ‘image’ of “house” used above is also not a physical house.

 

[PRmerger]

I
*“But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same **anointing teaches you concerning all ***things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” (1 John 2:27)

If “**the same anointing teaches you concerning all **things, and is true, and is not a lie, …” means nothing to you, then all the best to you.

Look, gerhard, if any of the words in those verses had the words “Holy Spirit” “interprets” or “Scripture” you might have an argument.

But if you do a search for those words, none of them are found in that passage.

Originally Posted by **gerhardc **
Scripture itself says who should interpret it

Scripture says nothing at all about who should interpret it.

 

[gerhardc]

Apology accepted.

Nice try but no apology. You called yourself obtuse - I agreed. :whacky:

And I have forgiven you for making a statement, however egregious about the Bible, that you cannot back up.
Do you acknowledge that you realize now that it is something not found in the pages of Scripture?

No forgiveness required. No error made. As faith (in His word) pleases God, so too lack of faith does not please Him.

 

[joe370]

Look, gerhard, if any of the words in those verses had the words “Holy Spirit” “interprets” or “Scripture” you might have an argument.

But if you do a search for those words, none of them are found in that passage.

Scripture says nothing at all about who should interpret it.

Actually Gerhardc, that is true. If not then perhaps you could cite the passage or passages that identify who in fact, has the authority to interpret scripture? That would be helpful brother. :coffeeread:

 

[PRmerger]

Nice try but no apology.

'kay. Then** I **apologize.

You called yourself obtuse - I agreed. :whacky:

Yes, I agree. I am obtuse at times, often on these forums.

But I’m pretty sure that you are going to have to come clean and humbly admit that you have no Bible verse to back up your statement here:

Originally Posted by gerhardc
Scripture itself says who should interpret it

 

[joe370]

gerhardc;8549511]"But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” (Matt.16:23) - the same passage as “on this rock” (petra). Thus, is Jesus really saying Peter is Satan? No.

Well then you better stop reading Peter’s, aka Satan’s letters in the bible. Poor Peter; he just can’t catch a break from you. LOL…

Post resurrection: “Feed My lambs: feed My sheep, feed My sheep…”

Maybe this will help:* “how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar* and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15). The “pillar” mentioned there - is it a physical pillar? No? Sure? Okay, then the ‘image’ of “house” used above is also not a physical house.

Could you please define church using your own words! Perhaps then I will have a better understanding of why you believe what you believe and how you interpret ! Timothy 3:15?

 

[gerhardc]

'kay. Then** I **apologize. Yes, I agree. I am obtuse at times, often on these forums.

Actually Gerhardc, that is true. If not then perhaps you could cite the passage or passages that identify who in fact, has the authority to interpret scripture? That would be helpful brother. :coffeeread:

You are looking for the words explicitly stating “Holy Spirit” “interprets” “Scripture”, (without which you refuse to believe 1 John 2:27), and the words “Holy Spirit” “teaches you” “all things”(including and especially His own word) (refer 1 John 2:27), don’t do it for you? … I can’t help you, sorry!

But, let me revert to PR’s approach to a matter in another post: If you are looking for the verse that says “Holy Spirit” “interprets” “Scripture”, it can be found right after the verse that says “Peter is” “the Pope” “all Peter’s successors” “are Pope” and the verse after that which says “Pope” “infallible doctrine” “believe Pope” “always”.