I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents...

[gerhardc]

Well then you better stop reading Peter’s, aka Satan’s letters in the bible. Poor Peter; he just can’t catch a break from you. LOL…

For me, and others, that just mean that Peter was not the foundation of the Church, but revelation of what truth is is the foundation: “Simon Peter answered and said,* “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”* (Matthew 16:16-17).

Could you please define church using your own words! Perhaps then I will have a better understanding of why you believe what you believe and how you interpret ! Timothy 3:15?

My own words for who comprise the Church (the Body) of the living Christ genuinely are: those who are born again, those who obey His word, those who are led by His Spirit. It is as simple as that. Each of the above is a choice, but nothing happens before you are born of the Spirit of God.

 

[joe370]

You are looking for the words explicitly stating

“Holy Spirit” “interprets” “Scripture”, (without which you refuse to believe 1 John 2:27), and the words “Holy Spirit” "teaches…

I can’t let you get away with that one brother. :tsktsk: The holy spirit is not here to interpret scripture for you, me or anyone else for that matter. If I have a question, such as: is Mary the IC, and ask the HS, he will not give me an audibly definitive answer. I might feel that the HS is guiding me one way or the other, but that is not definitively reliable. Are we simpatico on that idea as being fact?

 

[joe370]

gerhardc;8549596]For me, and others, that just mean that Peter was not the foundation of the Church, but revelation of what truth is is the foundation: “Simon Peter answered and said,* “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven*.” (Matthew 16:16-17).

Preface: Jesus is of course the Divine Rock…Regarding Simon, Jesus said: You are rock and on this rock I will build my church? Rock aka Simon, grammatically speaking, is the foundational structure on which Jesus" church is built. I cannot deny simple and logical sentence structure just to make it mean something else as I once did as a former protestant.

My own words for who comprise the Church (the Body) of the living Christ genuinely are: those who are born again, those who obey His word, those who are led by His Spirit. It is as simple as that. Each of the above is a choice, but nothing happens before you are born of the Spirit of God.

Thank you. :thumbsup:Within each and every self governing church, (including the CC) - comprised of those who are born again, those who obey His word, those who are led by His Spirit - can there be found authoritative leaders and teachers of the teachings of Jesus as well as authoritative interpreters of His word?

 

[gerhardc]

I can’t let you get away with that one brother. The holy spirit is not here to interpret scripture for you, me or anyone else for that matter. If I have a question, such as: is Mary the IC, and ask the HS, he will not give me an audibly definitive answer. I might feel that the HS is guiding me one way or the other, but that is not definitively reliable. Are we simpatico on that idea as being fact?

 

[joe370]

Hey gerhardc, real quick before I pass out from exhaustion. LOL…

Our initial inability to hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit does not disqualify His communicating with us. Even Paul says he often got stuck between hearing himself and hearing God.

I think I get what you are saying: Those who hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, have access to all truth and those who do not hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, do not have access to all truth? Is that it?

Hey, sorry man, but if 1 John 2:27 is not acceptable language, its not me who wrote it.

“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true–it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.”

You know, this, all by itself, is quite viable as a supportive passage for the practice of sola scriptura, come to think of it. No need for teachers (“you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true”).

Here in lies the problem:

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Now, time to pass out…

 

[gerhardc]

gerhardc: My own words for who comprise the Church (the Body) of the living Christ genuinely are: those who are born again, those who obey His word, those who are led by His Spirit. It is as simple as that. Each of the above is a choice, but nothing happens before you are born of the Spirit of God.

Thank you. :thumbsup:Within each and every self governing church, (including the CC) - comprised of those who are born again, those who obey His word, those who are led by His Spirit - can there be found authoritative leaders and teachers of the teachings of Jesus as well as authoritative interpreters of His word?

Thank you for adding “within each and every”. I will just assume license and change "self governing church, (including the CC)" to “self governing religious organization (including the Catholic movement)” there are true followers of Jesus, in word and in spirit. Thus: “within each and every self governing religious organization (including the Catholic movement)” there are true followers of Jesus, in word and in spirit."

As for authoritative leaders in these religious organizations or movement, it depends on whether or not the true followers of Jesus are given an opportunity to teach. Note, academic qualifications meant little to Jesus in His day. Today it is no different. What is important is spirit and truth: *“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in **spirit **and truth.” *(John 4:24). Note, “spirit” (also) refers to a reborn spirit (refer John 3:3-5) and **truth **refers to His word (refer John 17:17). Whether you are a ‘regular member’ or a ‘leader’ in the Body of Christ you must have be born again and you must abide in His word. There are no alternatives.

 

[gerhardc]

Hey gerhardc, real quick before I pass out from exhaustion. LOL…
I think I get what you are saying: Those who hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, have access to all truth and those who do not hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, do not have access to all truth? Is that it?

Yipee!

“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true–it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.”

You know, this, all by itself, is quite viable as a supportive passage for the practice of sola scriptura, come to think of it. No need for teachers (“you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true”).

Here in lies the problem:

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Now, time to pass out…

You are highlighting the Bible’s insistence that some people do need to be taught. From the above, those are the ones that:

• are Gentiles
• have not studied the word and are 'babies’
• surround themselves with those who tell them what they want to hear, not what they should hear

Paul was appointed to teach these, which include Gentiles, as noted above: “for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.” But, its a tough gig - there are many rewards but there are many draw-backs too: “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” But, God is the best person to judge who should do what: “And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.” Understand please, not everybody are teachers of those listed above: “All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?” Therefore, a true Body of believers - a Church - will have each of the above: "Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers

Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Marybeloved]

"But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” (Matt.16:23) - the same passage as “on this rock” (petra). Thus, is Jesus really saying Peter is Satan? No.

I think it’s quite clear, the difference btw a divine reproach for a personal failure and a divinely created office in God’s Kingdom based on divine favor and election rather than on the personal worth of the recepient.

Gerhard, a few questions for you, regarding that ‘Satan’ incident you described, just to put things in their proper perspective:

-Did Simon thereafter become known as Satan?
-Have you ever read a reference in the Holy Bible to a “Simon-Satan”?
-Have you ever read in the Holy Bible where Jesus declared to Simon, “Thou art Satan!” and then followed it up with promises of future states/offices conferred/built on this “Satan”?
-IYO, Did the Lord change Simon’s name to Satan, in the incident you described? Was it his intention to?

Polemics aside, I think the difference is quite clear if you undertake an honest study of the contexts for the two incidents as provided in scripture.

 

[joe370]

gerhardc;8549686]Yipee!

Cool. I now understand. You believe that certain Christians hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore have access to all truth, while other Christians do not hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore do not have access to all truth.

Let’s work from that premise and see where it leads us, regarding a real world application:

My sister (non-Catholic) - believes that she hears the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and insists that the Lord’s Supper is merely a symbolic remembrance, and nothing more, as opposed to what I believe, which of course must mean that I am the one who is not hearing the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit.

How can I know, with the certainty, that my sister (and not me) - is the one truly hearing the Spirit **with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore correct regarding the Eucharist?
**

 

[gerhardc]

I think it’s quite clear, the difference btw a divine reproach for a personal failure and a divinely created office in God’s Kingdom based on divine favor and election rather than on the personal worth of the recepient.

Gerhard, a few questions for you, regarding that ‘Satan’ incident you described, just to put things in their proper perspective:

-Did Simon thereafter become known as Satan?
-Have you ever read a reference in the Holy Bible to a “Simon-Satan”?
-Have you ever read in the Holy Bible where Jesus declared to Simon, “Thou art Satan!” and then followed it up with promises of future states/offices conferred/built on this “Satan”?
-IYO, Did the Lord change Simon’s name to Satan, in the incident you described? Was it his intention to?

Polemics aside, I think the difference is quite clear if you undertake an honest study of the contexts for the two incidents as provided in scripture.

You are missing the point Mary.

 

[joe370]

gerhardc;8549686]Yipee!

Trouble sleeping so I thought I would ask:

You believe that certain Christians hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore have access to all truth, while other Christians do not hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore do not have access to all truth.

Let’s work from that premise and see where it leads us, regarding a real world application:

My sister (non-Catholic) - believes that she hears the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and insists that the Lord’s Supper is merely a symbolic remembrance, and nothing more, as opposed to what I believe, which of course must mean that I am the one who is not hearing the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit.

How can I know, with the certainty, that my sister (and not me) - is the one truly hearing the Spirit **with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore correct regarding the Eucharist?
**

 

[gerhardc]

Cool. I now understand. You believe that certain Christians hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore have access to all truth, while other Christians do not hear the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore do not have access to all truth.

Let’s work from that premise and see where it leads us, regarding a real world application:

My sister (non-Catholic) - believes that she hears the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and insists that the Lord’s Supper is merely a symbolic remembrance, and nothing more, as opposed to what I believe, which of course must mean that I am the one who is not hearing the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit.

How can I know, with the certainty, that my sister (and not me) - is the one truly hearing the Spirit **with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore correct regarding the Eucharist?
**

Refer post #571 please. Uniformity does not guarantee Truth. Nor does lack if uniformity guarantee untruth.

 

[joe370]

Refer post #571 please. Uniformity does not guarantee Truth. Nor does lack if uniformity guarantee untruth.

I checked out post 571. So uniformity does not = truth. Got it! There can be only one truth regarding any one teaching. I ask again, if you don’t mind:

How can I know, with certainty, that my sister (and not me) - is the one truly hearing the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore correct regarding the Eucharist?

 

[gerhardc]

I checked out post 571. So uniformity does not = truth. Got it! There can be only one truth regarding any one teaching. I ask again, if you don’t mind:

How can I know, with certainty, that my sister (and not me) - is the one truly hearing the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore correct regarding the Eucharist?

Still, uniformity does not = truth. You are making the assumption that God is absolute in His treatment and allowances of men (sorry ladies, women too). Essentially it is the same error those who said Paul was preaching circumcision (while he was not) made when he cicumcused Timothy (was done for the Jews’ sake). So, you might as well have asked, “does the doctrine of circumcision still stand?” The answer is both no and yes in obedience to Him. But how do we know we heard Him right? We start off not hearing Him right - much like a baby unable to speak or hear an adult. But, His word (that is, the Bible) feeds (refer, “as new born babies desire the pure milk of the word”) us and we learn to hear Him speak to us through it. Revelation of His word is what sanctifies us (refer John 17:17) and is that thing that sets us free (“you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free”).
Revelation of God through His word and through His Spirit is the unmistakeable and unshakeable rock on which His church is built (refer Matt.16:16-17). Before I concern myself over my sister hearing Him right step 1 is to be born of the Spirit (refer John 3:3-5). Then your journey with His Spirit starts and He teaches you what you need to know right then.

Trust that helps a little.

 

[joe370]

Gerhardc

Still, uniformity does not = truth.

And I still agree with you!

You are making the assumption that God is absolute in His treatment and allowances of men (sorry ladies, women too).

I am assuming that there is one truth regarding any one teaching with respect to our Savior! For example: either Jesus died on the cross or He didn’t. Either His flesh is true food or it isn’t, and so on…

Essentially it is the same error those who said Paul was preaching circumcision (while he was not) made when he cicumcused Timothy (was done for the Jews’ sake).

Exactly. Someone was right and some one was wrong, in the preceding…

Revelation of God through His word and through His Spirit is the unmistakeable…

If it is, then please give me the unmistakable answer to the following:

How can I know, with certainty, that my sister (and not me) - is the one truly hearing the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore correct regarding the Eucharist?

 

[gerhardc]

I am doing this on my phone while occupied with something else, so please excuse the short answers.

And I still agree with you!

I am assuming that there is one truth regarding any one teaching with respect to our Savior! For example: either Jesus died on the cross or He didn’t. Either His flesh is true food or it isn’t, and so on…
Exactly. Someone was right and some one was wrong, in the preceding…
If it is, then please give me the unmistakable answer to the following:
How can I know, with certainty, that my sister (and not me) - is the one truly hearing the Spirit with the ears of a renewed spirit, and therefore correct regarding the Eucharist?

You will continue to distrust your sister (or whoever else’s) ‘hearing of the Spirit’ till you are born again and you hear Him for yourself. Remember, what He says to you and what He says to her may not be consistent. He gives you what you need to grow in character and righteouness (faith and love). The thing you dont have to wonder about are the things written in plain terms in the Bible like “you have to be born again” and “if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved” and “repent!”.

 

[joe370]

I am doing this on my phone while occupied with something else, so please excuse the short answers.

You will continue to distrust your sister (or whoever else’s) ‘hearing of the Spirit’ till you are born again and you hear Him for yourself. Remember, what He says to you and what He says to her may not be consistent.

I am born again just as my sister is, and yet you are suggesting that Jesus could be telling me one thing and my sister the exact opposite, regarding the same teaching?

I don’t even think you believe that my friend, but if you do, then OK…

 

[gerhardc]

I am born again just as my sister is, and yet you are suggesting that Jesus could be telling me one thing and my sister the exact opposite, regarding the same teaching?

I don’t even think you believe that my friend, but if you do, then OK…

Key is that you are obedient to His word and His Spirit. Paul says in Romans 14 that some will have an issue with food, days, rituals etc. and some will not: “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.” Then He says, essentially, both are right. If you and your sister are truly born again and if your teacher is the word and Spirit, stay obedient and listen well.

This may be the thing that burns you: “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Romans 14:5). Know that the rock on which His Church is built is the *revelation *of Jesus as represented by His Word and His Spirit.

 

[gerhardc]

Can I get an Amen that contraception is okay? And IVF is okay? Because that’s where your level of faith is (Romans 14:1-5)? Can I get an Amen that you have to be born of the Spirit of God and that the Spirit is your teacher (1 John 2:27)? Can I get an Amen that those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God (Romans 8:14)? Can I get an Amen that those who are obedient to His word are the ones that know Him (1 John 2:3)?

Thank you.

 

[gerhardc]

So you don’t agree with John 3:3-5, and Romans 10:8-10, and Matthew 16:16-17 and 1 John 2:27 and 1 John 2:3 and Romans 8:14. If you do, great, but please say so. If you don’t, I don’t have to judge you - the Word Himself does that.

Thats been horrible dialogue on my part. I appologise.