I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents...

[gerhardc]

Im not bailung out. I need to go. Till later.

 

[JustaServant]

gerhardc,
do you believe devout Catholics hear the Spirit of God?
Do you beleive we need to be “born again” as YOU understand the word?

 

[gerhardc]

Im not bailung out. I need to go. Till later.

 

[JustaServant]

Im not bailung out. I need to go. Till later.

Yet your green light is still on…

 

[ANNE_2]

CCC - " 2104 All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it.
This duty derives from the very dignity of the human person.
It does not contradict a “sincere respect” for different religions which** frequently “reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men,**” nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith. "

Protestants must follow the teachings in the Bible to be truly be called Christians.

Catholics must follow the teachings in the Bible and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”. The “CCC 2nd Ed” quotes the Bible in many footnotes, and never deviates from the Bible.

 

[CalChristian]

CalChristian:

Originally Posted by CalChristian View Post

1. “Authority” is often a power word.
2. As far as I know, MANY denominations open new congregations. My Catholic parish had a specific date on which it was begun. I think it was begun because several Catholic families moved into the area and it was some distance to the nearest parish. Protestants also often open new congregations.
3. If you are claiming that Jesus begun the RC Denomination c 33 AD in Jerusalem, then the burden of proof lies entirely on you, doesn’t it? But I fail to see what that has to do with beginning new congregations. I image HUNDREDS of them are begun each week - a goodly number of them Catholic.
4. I don’t know of any Protestants that claim that any congregation was founded by Jesus. Much less in 33 AD in Jerusalem. I don’t know of any Protestant denominations that claim this - or why they would. I know of only 3 denominations that claim that Jesus founded them - the RCC, EOC and LDS. None of them claim to be Protestant. As far as I know, none of them have any evidence of this beyond the claim of self and the interpretation of the writings of self.

Praise God. Finally honesty. Protestanism is not of the Lord, was not founded by Christ and at last the truth prevails…

Obviously, I never mentioned Protestantism. In any regard whatsoever.

Read the post you quoted.

What I said is that to my knowledge, no Protestant denomination claims that Jesus specificly founded IT. I know of only 3 denominations that claim such for self - The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None has any proof for such of course but each claims such for self.

.

 

[CalChristian]

I never said anything about starting congregations. I’m talking about starting a church and calling his/her church founded by Jesus…

People often speak loosely of God doing things. Someone may go on a date and think “God brought me to this person.” But at least in an official sense, to my knowledge, only 3 denominations in the world claim that Jesus specifically founded it: The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

My church was begun in 1973. There was a group of Christians attending congregations a member of our denomination nearby but driving some distance to these 2 congregations. So, these 2 congregations (with the help of the denomination) worked together with these dozen or so Christians to start this church. While I suspect they believed God was behind all this, they did not claim specifically that GOD was starting a new church. I see your point, but I think you’re taking it a bit far. Again, Catholics start new churches, too; there are certainlty more congregations in the world today than there was in 1050 AD. Yes, IN A SENSE, God started all these - but IMO, not in the sense you mean.

If not the CC then please provide the name of the man who founded the catholic church and when, just as I can do with all protestant churches?

1. When one makes a statement of fact, the burden of proof is exclusively with them to support such to the level claimed.
2. You’re attempt to substitute a rubric of “It’s a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of truth unless you can prove it false” is a rubric no one (Including no Catholic) accepts - and thus since you don’t accept it, you should not ask others to do what you regard as foolish and unacceptable. Don’t you agree? Prove for me there are not 6.1 billion furry brown creatures living on the Moon of Endor. Can’t? Does that prove it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of fact and truth that there are? I think not. Perhaps we disagree…

where in the world today can I find the one church founded by Jesus circa AD 33 in Jerusalem?

In my opinion, where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name.

.

 

[CopticChristian]

Obviously, I never mentioned Protestantism. In any regard whatsoever.

 

[sallybutler]

I am doing this on my phone while occupied with something else, so please excuse the short answers.

You will continue to distrust your sister (or whoever else’s) ‘hearing of the Spirit’ till you are born again and you hear Him for yourself. Remember, what He says to you and what He says to her may not be consistent. He gives you what you need to grow in character and righteouness (faith and love). The thing you dont have to wonder about are the things written in plain terms in the Bible like “you have to be born again” and “if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved” and “repent!”.

I am born again. And I believe that when Jesus said “this is my body” He was being literal. And when he said you must eat of my body, again He was being literal.

 

[CalChristian]

CalChristian;8550541:

May I instruct your lack of Knowledge. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are not denominations. This formula emanates from lack of knowledge. I agree that the LDS would qualify as a denomination of sorts in so far as it was formed out of the same dissatisfaction that no Protestant body had the truth.

Denominations are a Protestant phenomenon insofar as the origin is by dissent and denominating from its source.

Here are some definitions I was able to find:

From religioustolerance.com
Denomination: an established religious group, typically uniting a group of individual, local congregations into a single administrative body.

From thefreedictionary.com
Denomination: . A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

From onlinedictionary.com
Denomination: a group of religious congregations having its own organization and often a distinctive faith

From Allwords.com
Denomination: a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith

Several others were very similar…

So, according to you, in The Catholic Church, there are no congregations, no organization, no distinctive faith, no administration. I disagree.

Again, MY point was that no Protestant denomination claims that Jesus specifically founded IT. This is a CLAIM of just 3 denominations (to my knowledge): The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None of them have any historic proof of such, but that is the claim of each of these 3 for itself alone. I know of no Protestant denomination (or congregation for that matter) that so claims, at least in this sense.

Thus, IMO, an imposition of a Catholic perspective is being placed on other denominations that don’t share it. It is for these 3 denominations to prove their claim - not impose it on those that do NOT claim it and then rebuke them for not being able to prove a claim they don’t make (as if that proves things for the 3 denominations that do).

.

 

[CopticChristian]

Here are some definitions I was able to find:

From religioustolerance.com
Denomination: an established religious group, typically uniting a group of individual, local congregations into a single administrative body.

From thefreedictionary.com
Denomination: . A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

From onlinedictionary.com
Denomination: a group of religious congregations having its own organization and often a distinctive faith

From Allwords.com
Denomination: a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith

Several others were very similar…

So, according to you, in The Catholic Church, there are no congregations, no organization, no distinctive faith, no administration. I disagree.

Again, MY point was that no Protestant denomination claims that Jesus specifically founded IT. This is a CLAIM of just 3 denominations (to my knowledge): The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None of them have any historic proof of such, but that is the claim of each of these 3 for itself alone. I know of no Protestant denomination (or congregation for that matter) that so claims, at least in this sense.

Thus, IMO, an imposition of a Catholic perspective is being placed on other denominations that don’t share it. It is for these 3 denominations to prove their claim - not impose it on those that do NOT claim it and then rebuke them for not being able to prove a claim they don’t make (as if that proves things for the 3 denominations that do).

.

It appears that you are not using the Bible alone to discern your answer. May I praise you.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination regardless of what you read. The OHCAC is not defined by a website.

MY point was that no Protestant denomination claims that Jesus specifically founded IT.

Your belief and understanding that no Protestant denomination was founded by Christ will serve you well as you continue to discern. Get this fact correct and you will find more truths. The Catholic Church is not a denomination, never has been, never will be. When you can get over that hurdle more will follow.

In the meantime let me know the sound of one hand clapping…

 

[CalChristian]

CalChristian:

Originally Posted by CalChristian View Post
Here are some definitions I was able to find:

From religioustolerance.com
Denomination: an established religious group, typically uniting a group of individual, local congregations into a single administrative body.

From thefreedictionary.com
Denomination: . A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

From onlinedictionary.com
Denomination: a group of religious congregations having its own organization and often a distinctive faith

From Allwords.com
Denomination: a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith

Several others were very similar…

So, according to you, in The Catholic Church, there are no congregations, no organization, no distinctive faith, no administration. I disagree.

Again, MY point was that no Protestant denomination claims that Jesus specifically founded IT. This is a CLAIM of just 3 denominations (to my knowledge): The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None of them have any historic proof of such, but that is the claim of each of these 3 for itself alone. I know of no Protestant denomination (or congregation for that matter) that so claims, at least in this sense.

**Thus, IMO, an imposition of a Catholic perspective is being placed on other denominations that don’t share it. It is for these 3 denominations to prove their claim - not impose it on those that do NOT claim it and then rebuke them for not being able to prove a claim they don’t make (as if that proves things for the 3 denominations that do). **

The Catholic Church is not a denomination

Understood. So, no congregations, no organization, no administration, no common faith.
And since there is none, there can be no founding of such.

Your belief and understanding that no Protestant denomination was founded by Christ

Of course, I never said that.

As you know, what I said is that no Protestant denomination known to me CLAIMS for itself to have been founded by Jesus. There are only 3 denominations that so claim for itself alone: The Catholic Church, The Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None can historically prove such but they nonetheless each claim such for itself alone.

The question of this thread simply reverses it, asking Protestants to defend a claim none make rather than the 3 denominations that DO claims such proving it.

.

 

[CopticChristian]

Understood. So, no congregations, no organization, no administration, no common faith.
And since there is none, there can be no founding of such.

Of course, I never said that.

As you know, what I said is that no Protestant denomination known to me CLAIMS for itself to have been founded by Jesus. There are only 3 denominations that so claim for itself alone: The Catholic Church, The Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None can historically prove such but they nonetheless each claim such for itself alone.

The question of this thread simply reverses it, asking Protestants to defend a claim none make rather than the 3 denominations that DO claims such proving it.

.

This is called Impudence. You resort to the definitions and words from a website. I suggest you dismiss this website and draw your conclusions from other than this source. If you use this site to define your terms then there is no discussion.

Protestant denomination known to me CLAIMS for itself to have been founded by Jesus.

I praise you again for understanding and expressing a fact that no Protestant denomination was founded by Jesus.

 

[CalChristian]

You resort to the definitions and words from a website.

I gave definitions of the term. From SEVERAL websites.

I praise you again for understanding and expressing a fact that no Protestant denomination was founded by Jesus.

As you know, I NEVER remotely stated that no Protestant denomination was founded by Jesus. What I said is that to my knowledge, none of them so CLAIMS for self alone. Again, to my knowledge, only THREE denominations so claim for self alone: The Catholic Church, The Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None has historical proof of such but they each do CLAIM such for self alone.

Again, the attempt to transfer the burden of proof to those that do NOT claim such rather than those that do embracing it seems more than inappropriate. Let’s say you claimed to be 10 feet tall; it seems…odd… to then shout, “YOU prove that YOU’RE 10 feet tall!” Since no one else does, it seems… odd. And it does NOTHING to substantiate that you are 10 feet tall. Follow me? The problem with this thread is that it is an attempt to transfer the burden of proof for the claim away from those making it to those that don’t.

.

 

[CopticChristian]

I gave definitions of the term. From SEVERAL websites.

As you know, I NEVER remotely stated that no Protestant denomination was founded by Jesus. What I said is that to my knowledge, none of them so CLAIMS for self alone. Again, to my knowledge, only THREE denominations so claim for self alone: The Catholic Church, The Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None has historical proof of such but they each do CLAIM such for self alone.

Again, the attempt to transfer the burden of proof to those that do NOT claim such rather than those that do embracing it seems more than inappropriate. Let’s say you claimed to be 10 feet tall; it seems…odd… to then shout, “YOU prove that YOU’RE 10 feet tall!” Since no one else does, it seems… odd. And it does NOTHING to substantiate that you are 10 feet tall. Follow me? The problem with this thread is that it is an attempt to transfer the burden of proof for the claim away from those making it to those that don’t.

.

You choose to remain impudent in positing that the Catholic Church is a denomination. This requires me to dust my sandles and allow you to remain in your ignorant state. When you can discern you are wrong I may contemplate answering your posts. You have wasted my time. Remain as you are. This is an indication of an unyielding mind that the Holy Spirit will have a hard time penetrating…why should I bother with you?

 

[sallybutler]

You choose to remain impudent in positing that the Catholic Church is a denomination. This requires me to dust my sandles and allow you to remain in your ignorant state. When you can discern you are wrong I may contemplate answering your posts. You have wasted my time. Remain as you are. This is an indication of an unyielding mind that the Holy Spirit will have a hard time penetrating…why should I bother with you?

Denomination just means categorization. So Yes, the Catholic Church is the original denomination that other churches use as their standard.

Sometimes this standard means they try to do everything differently, sometimes it means they imitate. But they are still comparing themselves to the Catholic Church. Which probably means we are doing something right.

 

[Marybeloved]

Denomination just means categorization. So Yes, the Catholic Church is the original denomination that other churches use as their standard.

Sometimes this standard means they try to do everything differently, sometimes it means they imitate. But they are still comparing themselves to the Catholic Church. Which probably means we are doing something right.

We are not a denomination among Protestantism’s thousands of denominations! Protestants who insist on that attempt to class us among their strange “communion”- We were here 1500 years before them! There were only proper churches as established by the Apostles until Protestant movement was invented and they began forming their thousands of loose groups in the last few centuries which they call denominations, and they purport to count us among them? Are we protestants?

The Catholic Church is a distinct entity apart from the Protestant denominations, we are not “one” denomination among them. Neither are any of the other Apostolic churches (Orthodox, E&O and Assyrian Church)- Counting us among them is an imposition of their own ecclesiology on groups that have absolutely nothing to do with it, historically or theologically and have existed long before the world had ever heard of a thing like sola scriptura.

Peace!

 

[sallybutler]

We are not a denomination among Protestantism’s thousands of denominations! Protestants who insist on that attempt to class us among their strange “communion”- We were here 1500 years before them! There were only proper churches as established by the Apostles until Protestant movement was invented and they began forming their thousands of loose groups in the last few centuries which they call denominations, and they purport to count us among them? Are we protestants?

The Catholic Church is a distinct entity apart from the Protestant denominations, we are not “one” denomination among them. Neither are any of the other Apostolic churches (Orthodox, E&O and Assyrian Church)- Counting us among them is an imposition of their own ecclesiology on groups that have absolutely nothing to do with it, historically or theologically and have existed long before the world had ever heard of a thing like sola scriptura.

Peace!

I was looking at the word denomination in its basic sense, not in the manner that it has been used when discussing religion.

If you use the word when talking about money, it takes on a different flavor, one that doesn’t tend to have so much emotion attached to it.

Protestants are protesting against the Catholic Church. We are what they measure themselves by. We are the Gold Standard

 

[gerhardc]

I am born again. And I believe that when Jesus said “this is my body” He was being literal. And when he said you must eat of my body, again He was being literal.

Hey, that’s wonderful that you are born again. Now, are you willing to be taught by the Spirit of God?:

"But you have received the Holy Spirit,[a] and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit* teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ."** (1 John 2:3)*

 

[gerhardc]

How can I confirm Catholicism if I know that Matthew 16:18 refers to the rock of God’s revealed truth and not the legacy of a man? You are quite mistaken Jharek.

And you believe being born of the Spirit means you are baptized into a religious movement!!. ‘You are mistaken Nicodemus - how is it that you are a teacher and you don’t get the part about entering God’s Kingdom’ (John 3:10)