I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents...

[David_Castlen]

Are you looking for another angle? Are you looking for truth?

Goood

 

[CalChristian]

It wasn’t until the 5th century that the canon of Scripture was discerned and finalized. That’s 400 years without the Scriptures! Tradition was what preserved the Word of God.

I disagree.

There has been Scripture since around 1400 BC.
The OT Prophets spoke often of such.
Jesus referenced such some 50 times.
All LONG before the 5th century.

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand how a 5th century affirmation of Scripture relates to the issue of whether Protestant denominations that don’t claim Jesus specifically founded them must prove that Jesus nonetheless did in lieu of The Catholic Church that does alone claims such for self alone doing so? Could you explain that connection?

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[CalChristian]

In the CCC the Catholic movement testifies of itself. Does that make its testimony true? Of course not! Even Jesus Himself says that if only He testified of Himself His testimony would not be true. Try another angle.

The Catholic Church alone claims MUCH for itself alone.
I agree with you, such is unrelated to whether such is true.

And how does a mandate that Protestant denominations must prove something none of them claim substantiate that the claims of The Catholic Church are thus exempt from the need for substantiation?

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[regression]

There has been Scripture since around 1400 BC.
The OT Prophets spoke often of such.
Jesus referenced such some 50 times.
All LONG before the 5th century.

I’m pretty sure PRmerger was referring to the cannon of scripture that we know as the Bible. IE, both the OT and NT.

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree.

There has been Scripture since around 1400 BC.

Indeed. No one here is disputing that.

The OT Prophets spoke often of such.
Jesus referenced such some 50 times.
All LONG before the 5th century.

You are absolutely correct about this.

But how is it that you know that “Saul went into a cave to relieve himself” and “My breath is offensive to my wife” is from the inspired word of God?

How do you know that “All generations shall call me blessed!” and “I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” are theopneustos?

Only because the Catholic Church discerned that they were for you. Each and every time you quote a verse of Scripture, Cal, you are giving tacit approval to the authority of the CC.

 

[CalChristian]

Indeed. No one here is disputing that.

You are absolutely correct about this.

But how is it that you know that “Saul went into a cave to relieve himself” and “My breath is offensive to my wife” is from the inspired word of God?

How do you know that “All generations shall call me blessed!” and “I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” are theopneustos?

Only because the Catholic Church discerned that they were for you. Each and every time you quote a verse of Scripture, Cal, you are giving tacit approval to the authority of the CC.

I disagree.

The Hebrews accepted the Ten Commandments as God’s written Word, and as far as I can tell from the text, they did NOT do so because The Catholic Church addressed them and told them it was so.

The Prophets spoke of God’s Scriptures often. I don’t agree that The Catholic Church told them it was such.

Jesus referred to Scripture over 50 times. He specifically referred to it by that title 23 times. I don’t agree that The Catholic Church appeared before Him (and His audience) to affirm such to be the case.

My “referring” to Scripture as such is no more affirming the Council of Trent than Moses referring to such, the prophets referring to such, King Josiah referring to such, Jesus referring to such, or St. John or St. Peter or St. Paul referring to such.

Perhaps we just disagree on that…

Again, I don’t see how this affirms that it is the mandate of Protestant denominations to prove a claim none of them makes rather than The Catholic Church proving a claim that it does make. I’m not following that; sorry.

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[PRmerger]

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand how a 5th century affirmation of Scripture relates to the issue of whether Protestant denominations that don’t claim Jesus specifically founded them must prove that Jesus nonetheless did in lieu of The Catholic Church that does alone claims such for self alone doing so? Could you explain that connection?

It has to do with authority to make such a claim.

When you say, “I don’t believe in the authority of anything except Scripture (in theological matters)” but then you say, “Jesus said in the Gospel of Mark that 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her”…

the ONLY way you know that these words of Jesus are the inspired words of the inspired writer is because ANOTHER authority (NOT Scripture) discerned this for you.

And if you acknowledge the authority of this other entity (read: the Catholic Church), then you must acknowledge that there is an extra-biblical authority to which you defer.

 

[CopticChristian]

It has to do with authority to make such a claim.

When you say, “I don’t believe in the authority of anything except Scripture (in theological matters)” but then you say, “Jesus said in the Gospel of Mark that 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her”…

the ONLY way you know that these words of Jesus are the inspired words of the inspired writer is because ANOTHER authority (NOT Scripture) discerned this for you.

And if you acknowledge the authority of this other entity (read: the Catholic Church), then you must acknowledge that there is an extra-biblical authority to which you defer.

This is a good follow up to your point…

youtube.com/watch?v=fWyaFPGeusg

 

[joe370]

In the CCC the Catholic movement testifies of itself. Does that make its testimony true? Of course not! Even Jesus Himself says that if only He testified of Himself His testimony would not be true. Try another angle.

And I might add: if the catholic church is not the church founded by Jesus Christ, (as is the case with every protestant church) - guided by the HS into all truth until the end of time, then why would one belonging to the CC even trust the CCC as an authoritative exposition, and of course the same logic would apply to the leadership of each and every protestant church as well?

This makes it impossible to know who is actually being guided into all truth, doesn’t it? Perhaps all truth is unknowable…

 

[PRmerger]

This is a good follow up to your point…

youtube.com/watch?v=fWyaFPGeusg

Love it! If this were Facebook I’d click “Like!”

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree.

The Hebrews accepted the Ten Commandments as God’s written Word, and as far as I can tell from the text, they did NOT do so because The Catholic Church addressed them and told them it was so.

But the question is, Cal, why do YOU accept the Ten Commandments as God’s written word? Is it because the Hebrews (who also rejected Christ) told you it’s inspired? Or because someone else told you? Or because you just know?

The Prophets spoke of God’s Scriptures often. I don’t agree that The Catholic Church told them it was such.

No one here is making that claim, Cal.

Jesus referred to Scripture over 50 times. He specifically referred to it by that title 23 times. I don’t agree that The Catholic Church appeared before Him (and His audience) to affirm such to be the case.

And how do you know what Jesus said or did?

The ONLY way you know is through the Catholic Church.

My “referring” to Scripture as such is no more affirming the Council of Trent than Moses referring to such, the prophets referring to such, King Josiah referring to such, Jesus referring to such, or St. John or St. Peter or St. Paul referring to such.

Except you wouldn’t know that Malachi 1:11 is inspired, except for the authority of the Catholic Church, Cal.

Again, I don’t see how this affirms that it is the mandate of Protestant denominations to prove a claim none of them makes rather than The Catholic Church proving a claim that it does make. I’m not following that; sorry.

All we’re asking is that you acknowledge that each and every time you quote Scripture, you give tacit approval to an authority OUTSIDE of Scripture.

 

[CalChristian]

The ONLY way you know is through the Catholic Church.

Then how did the Hebrews know those two tablets in Moses’ arms were Scripture?
Are you saying the ONLY way they COULD know is if The Catholic Church told them?

How did the Prophets know that what they referred to as Scripture (as they did MANY times) was unless The Catholic Church told them?

How did King Josiah know that what he specifically called Scripture was such unless The Catholic Church told him?

How did Jesus know that what He specifically called Scripture 23 times was such unless The Catholic Church told Him? How did His audience know unless The Catholic Church appeared to them and told them?

How did St. Paul and St. Peter and St. John and St. James - all of whom spoke of Scripture - know what such was unless The Catholic Church told them?

IF the Hebrews, the Prophets, Jesus, the Apostles knew what was Scripture specifically because The Catholic Church told them, then - yes - perhaps we should too. Otherwise, what does The Catholic Church have to do with it?

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[PRmerger]

Then how did the Hebrews know those two tablets in Moses’ arms were Scripture?

I don’t know. I don’t know too much about how the ancient Israelites discerned what was theopneustos.

Do you?

Are you saying the ONLY way they COULD know is if The Catholic Church told them?

I am saying that I don’t concern myself too much with how non-Christians discern what they consider to be God’s Word.

Just like with Muslims–I really don’t know what criterion they used to determine what writings belong in the Koran.

How did the Prophets know that what they referred to as Scripture (as they did MANY times) was unless The Catholic Church told them?

How did King Josiah know that what he specifically called Scripture was such unless The Catholic Church told him?

How did Jesus know that what He specifically called Scripture 23 times was such unless The Catholic Church told Him? How did His audience know unless The Catholic Church appeared to them and told them?

I will address those questions when you answer the one I asked previously in post #653, Cal.

How is it that you know what Jesus said? Who told you? The Bible?

That, of course, prompts the question, “How do you know that Mark belongs in the Bible?”

The answer is: the Catholic Church discerned this for you, (naturally through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.)

 

[CalChristian]

CalChristian:

Then how did the Hebrews know those two tablets in Moses’ arms were Scripture?
Are you saying the ONLY way they COULD know is if The Catholic Church told them?

How did the Prophets know that what they referred to as Scripture (as they did MANY times) was unless The Catholic Church told them**?**

How did King Josiah know that what he specifically called Scripture was such unless The Catholic Church told him**?**

How did Jesus know that what He specifically called Scripture 23 times was such unless The Catholic Church told Him**?** How did His audience know unless The Catholic Church appeared to them and told them**?**

How did St. Paul and St. Peter and St. John and St. James - all of whom spoke of Scripture - know what such was unless The Catholic Church told them**?**

IF the Hebrews, the Prophets, Jesus, the Apostles knew what was Scripture specifically because The Catholic Church told them, then - yes - perhaps we should too. Otherwise, what does The Catholic Church have to do with it**?**

The answer is: the Catholic Church discerned this for you, (naturally through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.)

If I could ONLY know what Scripture is because of The Catholic Church, how did they know?

.

 

[PRmerger]

If I could ONLY know what Scripture is because of The Catholic Church, how did they know?

The early Christians knew because…

wait for it…

wait for it…

of Sacred Tradition. The paradosis. The handing on of the Gospel through the *kerygma. *

 

[joe370]

People often speak loosely of God doing things. Someone may go on a date and think “God brought me to this person.” But at least in an official sense, to my knowledge, only 3 denominations in the world claim that Jesus specifically founded it: The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Only the CC and the EOC’s can trace their origin back to the apostolic age of course. The Latter-Day Saints was founded by Joseph Smith in the 19th century.

My church was begun in 1973.

 

[CalChristian]

The early Christians knew because…

wait for it…

wait for it…

of Sacred Tradition. The paradosis. The handing on of the Gospel through the *kerygma. *

So, the Tradition of the Council of Trent was made known retroactively to the Hebrews at the base of Mount Sinai? That’s how they knew that the Tablets were Scripture? Could you substantiate that for us? Did the same thing happen for King Josiah? IF so, can you substantiate that happened?

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[PRmerger]

So, the Tradition of the Council of Trent was made known retroactively to the Hebrews at the base of Mount Sinai?

Again, I have no idea how the Hebrews knew what was made known to them at the base of Mt. Sinai.

However, as I’m typing this it occurs to me that you’ve answered your own question. It’s because Moses TOLD them (orally, that is) that it was God’s Word.

So it would appear that they knew, also, by Tradition?



Now, you have yet to answer my question: how do you know what Jesus said? Is it because you know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired by some knowledge infused within you?

Or is it because SOMEONE else told you that the Gospel of Mark is God-breathed?

And was that SOMEONE else the Catholic Church?

:yup:

 

[joe370]

That’s only because you call Catholicism a “church”. Others do not.

Catholics do not belong to a church, but rather a movement??? I thought there were protestant churches, non-denominational churches, eastern churches and the catholic church with 23 eastern rites in full communion? I know of no church that refers to itself as a movement…

 

[joe370]

PRmerger

Now, you have yet to answer my question: how do you know what Jesus said? Is it because you know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired by some knowledge infused within you?

Or is it because SOMEONE else told you that the Gospel of Mark is God-breathed?

And was that SOMEONE else the Catholic Church?

If the CC cannot be trusted to have infallibly safeguarded truth regarding things like Mary’s IC, Purgatory, the sacrifice of the Mass, etc, then logically, the CC cannot be trusted to have infallibly safeguarded the 27 books of the NT, e.g. the gospel of Mark, which should make the infallibility of those 27 books of the NT suspect for many protestants. Oddly enough, they blindly accept the latter, but…