I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents...

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Except they didn’t “defer” their opinions, did they? That’s why we have knowledge of their disparate views.
Can you give an example of an ECF’s teaching that departed from the paradosis? Then we can discuss whether he did not defer and persisted in this teaching (and then later became a heretic) or whether he did cease in proclaiming that which departed from the paradosis.
I would disagree. The Scriptures are the God-breathed words of God penned by human hands, therefore, they are the product of God.
This makes you quite Catholic when you say this, kelman.

But, again, it prompts the question: who discerned for you that the Odes of Solomon were not the product of God but that the Gospel of Mark was?

You would not know by any other means, except through the Catholic Church.
 
If Damasus’ promulgation at the council of Rome was not sufficient to “officially” establish the canon then what makes the pope’s at Trent sufficient?
Because the Trent made it dogma.
 
No, actually I said there was no alternative. If there was such a place, where we would know perfect truth all the time, we would take it. However, such a utopia does not exist, iow, there is no utopia in which we have all the answers all the time.
Would you agree that you have certainty that the New Testament has been correctly discerned to be theopneustos? That is, that someone made the correct decision to include Revelation in the Bible but to exclude the Didache?

Or are you saying that you are unsure about certain books of New Testament being inspired?
 
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The question is; obedience to the Catholic movement above obedience to the word of God? Because, if it is obedience to the word of God then all those in the Catholic movement would seek to be born again (refer John 3:3-5) and they would seek to be directly led by the Holy Spirit (refer 1 John 2:27) - no conduit will be required. Of course, I do not say that there are not born again believers in the Catholic movement.
Every baptized Christian has been born again of water and the Spirit. That includes the original Christians: Catholics. The Protestant definition of “born again” is not found in the Bible.

It is typical for Protestants to claim that the Catholic Church is disobedient to the Word of God (meaning the Bible). They are generally ignorant of the fact that the New Testament is comprized of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. What they mean is, their come-lately interpretations of the same words – and there are thousands of conflicting and competing interpretations – disagree with the Church’s teachings, which come to us from the Apostles.

Jim Dandy
Former Protestant
 
He wasn’t actually proclaiming on the Old Testament - only on the New Testament.
The council at Rome with Damasus spoke to both the NT and the OT.
The Jews didn’t actually have a need to settle on a particular canon of Scripture until after the Temple era.
They may not have had a need because they had a relatively established canon as seen in the prologue of Jesus ben Sirach from the 2nd century BC who often speaks of the three-fold division of the Jewish Scriptures.
We really can’t be sure that that’s true, can we? After all, didn’t Athanasius (296-373), who was bishop of Alexandria where the Septuagint was produced, refuse to include the Apocrypha in his list of the inspired OT canon claiming it was not in the Hebrew OT canon?
That, I don’t know.

Because Athanasius did not include the Apocrypha, I thought that to be strong evidence that the Septuagint of that day did not contain it.

In the spring of A.D. 367, Athanasius put forth a Festal Letter, in which he says,“Since we have spoken of the heretics as dead, and of ourselves as having the divine Scriptures for eternal life; and since some may be beguiled from their simplicity by the wiles of certain men, and may read other writings which are called Apocryphal and which ought not to be mingled with the Scripture which is inspired by God, it seems good to me to set down those Books which are known by us to be divine.”

He then specifies the books of the OT, twenty-two in number, 4 and the books of the NT. These are precisely the same as in the Hebrew canon of that day and today’s Protestant OTcanon. He designates the Epistle to the Hebrews as an Epistle of Paul. “These,” he adds, “are the fountains of salvation, that he who thirsteth may be filled with their oracles. In these alone is the doctrine of piety preached; let no one add to them, or take anything from them.”
bible-researcher.com/athanasius.html
 
St. Ignatius of Antioch advised his readers in 107 AD to defer to the Bishop of Rome when disputes arose. His advice was often repeated, especially by St. Irenaeus (Adverses Haereses) and others.
Yes, Rome had a primacy of honor, however, this didn’t translate into a universal jurisdictional authority. Cyprian is a good example of that. Clearly Cyprian had no concept of papal supremacy, in fact, he never yielded to Stephen, the bishop of Rome.
They look to the Holy Tradition of the Apostles, just like we do.
Yes, and that Holy Tradition was the written inspired Scriptures.
Had Paul wanted to say “go to the church” he could have, however, he declined to.
St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth. 🙂

And yet he explicitly taught that we go to God and His Word to arm ourselves against false teachings - not to the church.
Every human being involved with bringing the Scriptures to the Church was either a Bishop of the Catholic Church or an Apostle of Jesus Christ.
The penman of Scripture were obviously church members, however, they weren’t Roman Catholic church members.
Pope Damasus had no intention of promulgating the canon of the Old Testament - his concern was the New Testament. The Council of Trent had the intention of promulgating the canon of the Old Testament, and did so deliberately. 🙂
Regardless of Damasus’ intention, the council at Rome did, in fact, deal with the OT. That’s why I wondered why this was not sufficiently “official”. Even so, I know it didn’t settle the question because many ECFs did not list the Apocrypha in the accepted books of the OT.
 
Of course. We all agree that God is our authority.
Actually, in this case I was speaking about the authority of my church and others also.
But this, naturally, prompts the question: how do you know what God has proclaimed?
There is only ONE way, and that is through the Church, kelman.
Just as the OT Jew knew the contents of his Bible without a universal authority so can we today. Before any council had met, we find in the writings of the ECFs the same Bible we have today…well, the same Bible the Protestant has today…Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius, etc.
Fair enough. And when 2 Christians disagree on a particular verse, how is this solved in your church’s paradigm?
Individual disagreements?..sometimes they’re never solved. However, my church, as all others do, have their statement of beliefs. I would think one would agree with these beliefs before joining that particular church.
That’s interesting. I don’t know of any verse that says to go to the Scriptures but not to the church. Can you cite that please?
I mentioned the reference in the post you replied to where you suggested I was creating a false dichotomy. I’ll repeat it below:
We see that disciplinary actions are to be taken by the churches. To strengthen us so that we do not fall prey to false teachings Paul does not entrust us to the church but rather to God and to Scripture (Acts 20:32).
 
You have a link with reality. Hands. Those hands belong to someone. Many of the books of the Bible like Hebrews has no authors name. I believe that there are others. Many of the epistles attributed to Paul were not written by Paul. So how do you know that these are God breathed. Someone elses hands touched them. Someone elses eyes read them and someone elses mind said yup…nope…this one and not that one are God Breathed. Who had those hands? There were hands that were rasied and agreed and thus we have the God breathed Bible. How did that happen?
God’s people recognized as Scripture the various books that were already circulating in the Apostles’ day. And yes later, the “hands” of others touched these books and also recognized their inspiration. These were members of the early church - the universal church.
 
I respectfully ask evangelical, protestant and sola scriptura proponents:

By whose authority does any one person, (such as myself) - have the right to start a church and call his/her established church the church founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Please leave the catholic church out of the discussion unless of course you can prove that the catholic church is not the church founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost! 👍

Thanks…🙂
My wife and children left the Church about 1995 and over the intervening years I have pondered this question incessantly. Intellectually I cannot come to a positive, “it’s all good”,conclusion. The Church tells us that those who have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula are, in some way, part of the Church which I take to be “part of the Chiurch even if they do not practice the faith.”

On the other hand the Church tells us that Protestantism (which I’ll call any communion which protests the Catholic Church and which, generally, adheres to the 3 “solas”) is a heresy. The practitioners are not counted as heretics but their teaching is heretical, So I have a hard time connecting those dots.

In the 16 years since my family left the Church I have, from time to time, visited their services (in multiple different communities essentially depending on how they liked the pastor). I have seen everything from confetti cannons to laser light shows to dancing girls to a Good Friday service on Easter to no service on Christmas (so the worship teams can enjoy the holiday with their families).

I was not there in 33 a.d. but I can not imagine that these stage shows have anything whatsoever to do with the thought process of the Founder. I find them a well meaning but disjointed effort to invent the wheel without the blueprint.
 
There is nothing prideful in prayerfully studying Scripture. God has commanded that we do so. As for private interpretation, I submit that mine is no more fallible than yours.
Dear kelman,

Cordial greetings and a very warm welcome to the world of CAF.

There is indeed nothing prideful about the devout study of Sacred Scripture, but private interpretation only results in doctrinal chaos. If proof is required of this then one only needs to look the fragmented condition of Protestantism to observe the unhappy result of the uncertanties of private judgment. Whilst it is freely admitted that the Catholic Church today is assailed by dissentient voices, these modernists and rebels do not speak for the magisterium, which has roundly and unequivocally condemnded their erroneous opinions. Therefore, this in no wise destabalizes the infallibility of the Church nor weakens the contrast drawn by the apologists between the uncertainties of individual judgment and the certainty of the authoritative guide. Moreover, that contrast demonstrates that individual private judgment leads men along a subjective path to an ultimate quagmire of competing opinions. True, we do live in a fallen world, but are we to really expected to believe that our Lord envisaged such a chaotic situation and took no steps to ensure that it did not emerge after His departure from this world? Catholics quite rightly regard the multiplication of demoninations as a tragedy and a scandal in terms of our mission to the world and could never view them as part of the economy of God, supposedly ensuring that issues neglected by the mainstream are championed.

Protestant brethren fail to appreciate that the word of Scripture emerged from the Church and is the word spoken in the Church and by the Church for the Church. Further, the Church is, as it were, the Divinely given check against the intrusion of erroneous and novel teaching in faith and morals. It is surely inconceivable that our gracious God should have left His Church without a visible guide and authoritative voice. This is not merely a matter of biased Catholic opinion or taste, but a self-evident truth which emerges from the character of God. Thus just as we would infer from the justice of God that deception by Him is inconceivable, so we may infer from God’s love for His Church and His high purposes for it that it is likewise inconceivable that He should allow it to fall into error as touching faith and morals. An authoritative visible guide is thus seen as an inevitable consequence of the character and the purposes of God.

The notion of the perspicuity of Scripture, so extolled by the Protestants, simply cannot be sustained, especially in view of the multitude of denominations. Moreover, the differences between these groupings is not merely over so called “second order issues”. The different groups do not disagree only about minor things such as whether one should be sprinkled, dipped or dunked in Holy Baptism, but about crucial questions of doctrine (e.g. is Baptism essential for salvation?; can one loose their eternal salvation?; what is the role of good works?; what is a sacrament?). It is easy to say that bible is basicly clear, but experience does not actually bear it out because all the different Christian groups and individuals make their appeal to the same bible to make their conflicting points. How can that be right or even desirable? This is nothing new for in the second century you had some Christians say that Jesus was God incarnate, whilst others said He was not, and the problem was that their were good Christian men on both sides of the debate which argued their case powerfully from Scripture. Who was to settle the matter authoritatively and definitively?

Another clear problem that arises is what does one do when the bible does not present clear teaching on some issue of crucial importance? This is pivitol today since so many important moral questions are products of the modern age. The bible simply does not address things like* in vitro* fertilisation, human cloning, atomic warfare or even global warming. Thus when there are disagreements and when Sacred Scripture does not speak clearly, who decides? In other words, who interprets the sacred text for the needs of Christians today? Surely, it is up to you and me or some unerring authority greater than both of us. The Catholic would contend that the latter is the case.

Finally a word about that II Timothy passage, which is the classic proof text for the sola scriptura theory. It is indeed a splendid text and Catholics would agree on the inspiration/usefulness of Sacred Scripture. However, the passage does not declare that Scripture is the only authority, nor does it inform us as to what is the foundational authority for our knowledge of the truth. The N.T. actually points to the Church as that universal authority. Protestants assert that the bible alone is sufficient and is the final authority and court of appeal, however St. Paul states in the Ephesian epistle that “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God will be made known” (3: 10), and in I Tim. 3:15 he says it is the Church which is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”, not the bible. Thus St. Paul would certainly entrust us to God and Scripture, but would equally maintain that Scripture must be correctly interpreted by the Church, given that it and not the bible is “the pillar and foundation of truth”.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
My wife and children left the Church about 1995 and over the intervening years I have pondered this question incessantly. Intellectually I cannot come to a positive, “it’s all good”,conclusion. The Church tells us that those who have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula are, in some way, part of the Church which I take to be “part of the Chiurch even if they do not practice the faith.”

On the other hand the Church tells us that Protestantism (which I’ll call any communion which protests the Catholic Church and which, generally, adheres to the 3 “solas”) is a heresy. The practitioners are not counted as heretics but their teaching is heretical, So I have a hard time connecting those dots.

In the 16 years since my family left the Church I have, from time to time, visited their services (in multiple different communities essentially depending on how they liked the pastor). I have seen everything from confetti cannons to laser light shows to dancing girls to a Good Friday service on Easter to no service on Christmas (so the worship teams can enjoy the holiday with their families).

I was not there in 33 a.d. but I can not imagine that these stage shows have anything whatsoever to do with the thought process of the Founder. I find them a well meaning but disjointed effort to invent the wheel without the blueprint.
Thought transmits time. You have heard that there is nothing new under the sun. In the magazine of Catholic Answers, This Rock, there used to be a section called “Heresy of the Month”.

There are thoughts that have transmitted time and are practiced in communities. Protestanism is more of a type of thought that at its inception was heretical. Being born into an aberrant form of Christian thought does not make one a heretic. Embracing heretical thought does not make one a heretic. The rub is when there is the notion that what you embrace is heretical and through stubborness and lack of investigation you persist in that thought you become what you embrace.

There is no evidence for the claims of Protestant thought other than the truth. Knox, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther were Catholic and they formulated thoughts that are not consistent with the deposit of Faith.

There are as you know Samaritans that exist today. The Nestorians have become the Chaldean Catholics of today. Gnostics exist. Modalism is seen in oneness Pentacostals. Manichiesm is seen in the halls of AA. Mormons exhibit Pelagianism. The list goes on and on. It should not surprise you that thought transmits time for we accept that the thoughts of the Apostles/Christ are part and parcel of the OHCAC.
 
Actually, in this case I was speaking about the authority of my church and others also.
Fair enough.

I presume that your church and other leaders do not claim infallibility for themselves?

If they do not, then, by definition of fallibility, **they will be wrong **on any number of interpretations.

And what do you do when they are wrong? To whom do you seek succor?
Just as the OT Jew knew the contents of his Bible without a universal authority so can we today.
Actually, the OT Jew had to be told what was Scripture. (Just like you do.) They simply didn’t have a secret gnosis that told them what was the word of God and what wasn’t, right?
 
Individual disagreements?..sometimes they’re never solved. However, my church, as all others do, have their statement of beliefs. I would think one would agree with these beliefs before joining that particular church.
This is the most curious of paradigms, kelman. One must “agree with these beliefs before joining that particular church”? Really?

Doesn’t that seem like the height of arrogance? Doesn’t that seem backwards to you? Are you not then creating a church in one’s own image, rather than conforming one’s image to God?

It would seem to me that the correct paradigm is this: YOU, as a creature, conform yourself to that which has been revealed. YOU change your beliefs based on what God demands and commands.

NOT: I find a church that expresses that which I like. :eek:
 
Before any council had met, we find in the writings of the ECFs the same Bible we have today…
Heh. And this is a great testament to the validity of Sacred Tradition. They received the paradosis and were able to proclaim the gospel, without the existence of the Bible.

That’s simply what Tradition is. 🤷
 
I asked:
That’s interesting. I don’t know of any verse that says to go to the Scriptures but not to the church. Can you cite that please?
and you responded:
I mentioned the reference in the post you replied to where you suggested I was creating a false dichotomy. I’ll repeat it below:

We see that disciplinary actions are to be taken by the churches. To strengthen us so that we do not fall prey to false teachings Paul does not entrust us to the church but rather to God and to Scripture (Acts 20:32).
But you’re certain to notice that I asked for a Scripture verse that says to go to the Scriptures, but not to the church.

Where does Acts 20:32 state to not go to the Church? :confused:

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 20:32[/BIBLEDRB]
 
In the 16 years since my family left the Church I have, from time to time, visited their services (in multiple different communities essentially depending on how they liked the pastor). I have seen everything from confetti cannons to laser light shows to dancing girls to a Good Friday service on Easter to no service on Christmas (so the worship teams can enjoy the holiday with their families).

I was not there in 33 a.d. but I can not imagine that these stage shows have anything whatsoever to do with the thought process of the Founder.
This is a serious problem with the Catholic Church today. And it is not the only problem.
 
My wife and children left the Church about 1995 and over the intervening years I have pondered this question incessantly. Intellectually I cannot come to a positive, “it’s all good”,conclusion. The Church tells us that those who have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula are, in some way, part of the Church which I take to be “part of the Chiurch even if they do not practice the faith.”

On the other hand the Church tells us that Protestantism (which I’ll call any communion which protests the Catholic Church and which, generally, adheres to the 3 “solas”) is a heresy. The practitioners are not counted as heretics but their teaching is heretical, So I have a hard time connecting those dots.

In the 16 years since my family left the Church I have, from time to time, visited their services (in multiple different communities essentially depending on how they liked the pastor). I have seen everything from confetti cannons to laser light shows to dancing girls to a Good Friday service on Easter to no service on Christmas (so the worship teams can enjoy the holiday with their families).

I was not there in 33 a.d. but I can not imagine that these stage shows have anything whatsoever to do with the thought process of the Founder. I find them a well meaning but disjointed effort to invent the wheel without the blueprint.
I will admit that I once changed parishes because I didn’t like a sermon the priest gave. I’d just delivered a baby & had talked my husband into watching her while I went to Mass. I didn’t get dressed up – something about a newborn makes it hard to even get showered, although I had done that. His sermon suggested that if you couldn’t get dressed up, you shouldn’t go. I found a parish that was happy to have you there, no matter how you were dressed.
 
Can you give an example of an ECF’s teaching that departed from the paradosis? Then we can discuss whether he did not defer and persisted in this teaching (and then later became a heretic) or whether he did cease in proclaiming that which departed from the paradosis.
Well, what we’ve been discussing for one thing - whether the Apocrypha is inspired Scripture and many ECFs wrote that it was not.
But, again, it prompts the question: who discerned for you that the Odes of Solomon were not the product of God but that the Gospel of Mark was?
You would not know by any other means, except through the Catholic Church.
Put another way - who discerned for me that Judith is not inspired Scripture?..you would agree that it certainly wasn’t the RCC. I’ve read a few Apocrypha books over the years, and while hoping not to be presumptions of God, I believe the Holy Spirit discerned for me that certain books were not His.
 
originally posted by kelman
no, actually i said there was no alternative. If there was such a place, where we would know perfect truth all the time, we would take it. However, such a utopia does not exist, iow, there is no utopia in which we have all the answers all the time.
No, I was speaking about knowing perfect truth at all times.
 
Kelman:
Yes, Rome had a primacy of honor, however, this didn’t translate into a universal jurisdictional authority. Cyprian is a good example of that. Clearly Cyprian had no concept of papal supremacy, in fact, he never yielded to Stephen, the bishop of Rome.
Then apparently you do not read early church history enough. I can provide ample sources from ECF’s stating otherwise.
Quote:
They look to the Holy Tradition of the Apostles, just like we do.
Yes, and that Holy Tradition was the written inspired Scriptures.
Really? Only written scripture is Holy Tradition?
Quote:
Had Paul wanted to say “go to the church” he could have, however, he declined to.
St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth.
And yet he explicitly taught that we go to God and His Word to arm ourselves against false teachings - not to the church.
And what makes you believe God and His Church are two separate entities? Scripture teaches the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ.
Quote:
Every human being involved with bringing the Scriptures to the Church was either a Bishop of the Catholic Church or an Apostle of Jesus Christ.
The penman of Scripture were obviously church members, however, they weren’t Roman Catholic church members.
That is right,they belong to the Universal Church also known as Catholic. Roman is one rite out of many.
Quote:
Pope Damasus had no intention of promulgating the canon of the Old Testament - his concern was the New Testament. The Council of Trent had the intention of promulgating the canon of the Old Testament, and did so deliberately.
Regardless of Damasus’ intention, the council at Rome did, in fact, deal with the OT. That’s why I wondered why this was not sufficiently “official”. Even so, I know it didn’t settle the question because many ECFs did not list the Apocrypha in the accepted books of the OT.
And that is the difference between the ECF’s and the Protestant Reformers. The ECF succumb their wills for that of the church as oppose to men like Luther and Calvin were it was about their own agendas and wills.
 
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