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adelore
Guest
I’ll have to read more of this later, as I have to get ready to leave. So far what I’ve read this didn’t start until 1555 at the concile of Trent? By the way can you also give me a link to where this is refered to in Cannon Law 1983. Thanks.
By the way I would like to add something else…My brother and his first wife were married in a Catholic Church. Years later he re-married…and she had also been married once before in the Catholic Church. (They got married outside of the Catholic Chruch) at their 20 year anniversary they then got married in the Catholic Church. It was a small family gatherring, with a Priest marring them at the Catholic Church. As far as I know, (but I’ll double check) they never went through an Annulment Process, again I’ll double check on that…and let everyone know.
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BayernAnhaenger
Guest
No, the precept to confess your sins once a year goes back nearly a full millenium. To the Fourth Lateran Council (1215):
Canon 21, the famous “Omnis utriusque sexus”, which commands every Christian who has reached the years of discretion to confess all his, or her, sins at least once a year to his, or her, own (i.e. parish) priest. This canon did no more than confirm earlier legislation and custom, and has been often but wrongly, quoted as commanding for the first time the use of sacramental confession.
newadvent.org/cathen/09018a.htm
From the current Code of Canon Law:
Can. 989 After having reached the age of discretion, each member of the faithful is ob-liged to confess faithfully his or her grave sins at least once a year.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3H.HTM
In addition to that, your brother needs an annulment, as does his new wife. Have them write to the bishop.
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JRKH
Guest
I am well aware of what she said.
As far as what her statement indicates we cannot say since we are not in her shoes. We know virtually nothing of her situation.
But one more thing I do know
I know that we are not to judge another. “Judge not lest you be judged”
So - While she is pondering your kind words about her situation, pehaps you should ponder your sin in judging someone you hardly know.
Discuss it with your confessor and see what he thinks.
I will say no more on the matter.
Peace
James
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BayernAnhaenger
Guest
How kind of you to then judge me. rolls eyes
From the Haydock commentary of the Douay-Rheims translation:
Barefaced vice and notorious sinners should be condemned and reprobated by all. (Haydock)
As the footnote to Matthew, Chapter 7, Verse 1
Perhaps she should be less confident in knowing the Decisions and Will of Our Lord.
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Starfish
Guest
"You are making excuses for not returning. What you said in your original thread that you were taught in schoold during your youth is not what the Church teaches. I actually doubt that you were taught this, but even if you were it is not what the Church teaches. Why would a nun, who prays to Jesus every day, tell you that you are forbidden from praying to Jesus and must pray to Mary? Your school years were many years ago. If I can’t remember much I was taught in school 25 years ago, how can you yourself remember these teaching so clearly? I am almost positive that this is not what you were taught. You may have convinced yourself that you were taught this (in order to justify your second “marriage”), but the reality is that you are using this to justify your own conscience. "
Why do I have to hear 99% of the posters here telling me that what I was taught is NOT what I was taught? I remember the teachings “so clearly”, because these things were pounded into our heads as FACTS and that was how it was. If other members of my family were to post here, you’d hear the same thing. Forgive me for having a superb memory. It wasn’t until many, many years later that I started really questioning the stuff that was taught.
sigh
Why do I have to hear 99% of the posters here telling me that what I was taught is NOT what I was taught? I remember the teachings “so clearly”, because these things were pounded into our heads as FACTS and that was how it was. If other members of my family were to post here, you’d hear the same thing. Forgive me for having a superb memory. It wasn’t until many, many years later that I started really questioning the stuff that was taught.
sigh
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Starfish
Guest
God has forgiven me. Or don’t you read the Bible?
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Starfish
Guest
Thank you for sharing, dear lady. May our Lord bless you richly.
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BayernAnhaenger
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How do you know God has forgiven you? Did his ordained minister absolve you from your sins? Because as far as I know, it’s that, or perfect contrition. And if you’re alleging perfect contrition, I will take it with a grain of salt.
I do read the Bible. Don’t you?
Also, as a question: Who composed the Bible (and where is your authority for which Bible you use)? And which Bible do you use? Is it the full Catholic one? Or is it the shorter, edited-out Bible used by the Deformers of the 1500s?
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Starfish
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God has forgiven me. The “sin” no longer exists. It has been forgotten. I can give you about ten different references in the Bible stating as much.
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BayernAnhaenger
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Forgotten by whom?
Also, you ignored my other questions concerning the Bible.
How come?
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adelore
Guest
Dear BayernAnhaenger,
I would like to Thank You for teaching me a lesson…after reading some of your replies. And as you so call them Snippy.
I pray the Lord and Others on here will “Forgive Me” if I have ever come acrossed as Snippy. (and truely I know after reading some of my own replies, in the Head Covering/ Veil section.) that I have come across as Snippy to others, May I ask for your forgiveness in that. I will try to be a more loving and compasionate Catholic Christian from now on, even when I’m really trying to prove/show a point.
As Christians if we are to explain things to others I do believe we can do it in a better manner than being Snippy and calling someone Full of Arrogance and Pride. (just quoting your words.)
If we truely want to “help” others in what we see as errors that have been taught to them…don’t you think that just maybe giving them facts and facts alone…might be the best way to do it? Calling someone names when truely you don’t know the “Whole Big Picture” of what they were told/taught really isn’t fair to them.
Please keep in mind…that not all Catholics…Including me…even knew about such a thing as Cannon Laws, the thick book of the CC, (that a person can buy now) Until…I got on the Catholic Fourms.
So being Snippy (as you say) to someone, really doesn’t help the matter any.
In case you didn’t know this, (as I have no idea how old you are) the internet wasn’t around when I grew up…Computers have been very costly for years and not everyone even had a clue as to how to work one. Me included for some time.
The Information just wasn’t put out into the Lay peoples hands…simple as that. I guess maybe at a Big City Parish, but in the Country, Small town, Catholic Churchs, you’re lucky to get the Catholic Paper and the bulliten to this very day.
Now you say we were taught wrong. So who’s fault is that? Is that our fault that for many years we didn’t know because we didn’t have the information? Is that our fault because “The Church” isn’t teaching us these things? And yet as you have pointed out…things were passed on by word of mouth or oral teaching, before even the Bible came into print. So do tell why should we have “doubted” what we were being taught by our Priest and Teachers?
And it’s great that you can point out this or that in the Cannon Laws and the Other things that over Half (i’m guessing here) of the Catholics don’t even know they can get their hands on these things. You can’t know where or what to look for…if you don’t even know about these things. And without a doubt Every Parish I’ve attended…doesn’t even “Let us know” these things are around.
If it wasn’t for the Internet and me stumbling onto this forum…to this very day at the age of 51 I still wouldn’t know. It just wasn’t taught back then or even now in Many of the Parishs. I’ve never once even heard the CC book mentioned in our Parish and that the Lay people can get their own copy.
Back in my growing up days…having one Bible in the house was the norm. There were very expensive and to find a Catholic Bible to boot was very hard in deed. It’s not like Christian/Catholic Book stores are all over the place…they are very far and few between.
Please keep in mind…not all Catholics were brought up in your “time” and not all Catholics even know about all these things…most of us only know what the Church taught us.
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JRKH
Guest
Everyone -
I don’t know why others seem to want to tell someone else what they do or don’t remember right. In my mind it doesn’t really matter whether Starfish was actually taught this or whether it is just “the way she remembers it”. These memories are the reality that she, and we, must deal with. But we have such a large group of people on these boards that we’re bound to get all kinds of reactions - including incredulity. Also, please remember, that we often get non-catholics (not former catholics) coming here and posting the most rediculous claims of what the Church teaches and it does get a bit frustrating at times.
Starfish.
You have come to CAF for some reason – I hope it is to maybe repair your relationship with Holy Mother Church and forgive those who hurt you in the past. If that is the case then what we should be doing is gently letting you know what the church actually teaches as opposed to what you remember being taught.
And please remember, dear Starfish, that there are others out here who had “mean” nuns or “deficient” priests so you are not entirely without emotional support in this community.
Everyone,
I think it is important for both sides of the discussion to try and stay away from emotional posts and simply stick to facts.
The one fact that we currently have on this thread is that Starfish is divorced and remarried. Now sticking with what we know on this thread, we know very little about the particulars of the marriages except that the first one was abusive. We do not know, from the info in this thread, when she first married, when she divorced, when she remarried, when she left the church in relation to the above.
Finally - to those who are critical of her decision to divorce and remarry as related to bible teaching that in Matthew the Bible is clear that Divorce is wrong except for “Lewd Conduct”. From what I know of Starfish’s first husband, he qualifies as Lewd.
Now - Starfish knows, because several have told her, that she could likely recieve an anullment of the first marriage and get her second marriage blessed by the Church. If she chooses to do that - great - If not, then it is her decision. But in any event, as far as the marriage issue goes I think we’ve taken it as far as we can.
Starfish,
Are there any other issues or teachings or beliefs that we can help you with? It is obvious that your early training was not great so maybe we could look at some of the issues one at a time. Like I said, I think the one about your marriage has been covered. I suppose that the issue of “forgiveness” is currently on the table.
If you were still a practicing Catholic then BayernAnhaenger’s comments about needing to confess would be most accurate and apropriate. I beg you to realize that he is speaking from that perspective. Also it might be helpful to know that, unless you have sent a formal letter to the Bishop of your diocese withdrawing from the Church, you are still considered Catholic by the Church.
As far as whether you are actually forgiven - none of us can know that and we should refain from judging each other in such matters. We can simply say that it appears you have not chosen to follow normal church procedures to have your marriage situation “normalized” in the Church. Thus, there are issues with the Church on that score.
Of course, if you were ever to want to return to The Church, you would need to go to confession anyway so I think that all of this talk about not being forgiven is a bit premature anyway.
Please forgive me I find I am rambling a bit.
In Summary -
We would like to help you learn more about The Church and Her True teachings.
We cannot know for sure what your current situation is before the Lord so we shouldn’t pass judgement.
Peace
James
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deb1
Guest
I think that JRKH has given a very wise post. Hopefully, Starfish will stick around.
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Yours_Truly
Guest
YoursTruly:
Starfish:
While in school, did you ever pray the Our Father? If so, this is directed toward God, not Mary. Did you every pray the Glory Be? This too is directed toward God, not Mary. What about the prayer before meals (Bless us O’Lord and these thy gifts, etc.). All these prayers that you would have actually prayed in schoold were directed toward God. Therefore, it just doesn’t make sense that you would have told not to pray to God when many of the prayers you would have prayed in school were directed toward God.
Again, I would not be surprised to learn that you were taught wrong things, but, since this is so contrary to what you would have actually done, it is hard to believe that this is one of the errors you would have been taught.
Now, you implied that you left the Church for Protestantism, and it is a common error of the Protestants to believe that Catholics are forbidden to pray directly to God. Therefore, since you have been around Protestants; and since Protestants believe this error - which in reality is completely contrary to the practice of Catholics - it makes a reasonable person wonder if what you think your were taught in school (which was contrary to what you actually did in school) is rather what the Protestants told you that you were taught in school. I am not questioning your honesty or sincerety. I am questioning your memory.
I would not be surprised to hear that you were taught things that were wrong, but the example above - that you were told you couldn’t pray direction to God, but must go through Mary - is so far from correct, and so contrary to the actual practice, that I suspect you misunderstood. Here’s why I say that…
While in school, did you ever pray the Our Father? If so, this is directed toward God, not Mary. Did you every pray the Glory Be? This too is directed toward God, not Mary. What about the prayer before meals (Bless us O’Lord and these thy gifts, etc.). All these prayers that you would have actually prayed in schoold were directed toward God. Therefore, it just doesn’t make sense that you would have told not to pray to God when many of the prayers you would have prayed in school were directed toward God.
Again, I would not be surprised to learn that you were taught wrong things, but, since this is so contrary to what you would have actually done, it is hard to believe that this is one of the errors you would have been taught.
Now, you implied that you left the Church for Protestantism, and it is a common error of the Protestants to believe that Catholics are forbidden to pray directly to God. Therefore, since you have been around Protestants; and since Protestants believe this error - which in reality is completely contrary to the practice of Catholics - it makes a reasonable person wonder if what you think your were taught in school (which was contrary to what you actually did in school) is rather what the Protestants told you that you were taught in school. I am not questioning your honesty or sincerety. I am questioning your memory.
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Yours_Truly
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Starfish,
What JRKH wrote above is right. At this point it really doesn’t matter if you were taught things that were incorrect, if you only remember it that way. Where we are at this point is that we would like you to come home to the Church (and so would God). The obstacal at this point is your second marriage. While it is true that Jesus will forgive any sin we commit, He will only do so if we repent and resolve to cease the sin. Like Jesus said to Mary Magdalen: “Thy sins are forgiven then. Now go and sin no more lest something worse happen to thee”.
We can’t persist in sin and expect to be forgiven. If a guy lives with his girlfriend, God will certainly forgive this sin if he repents; but if he is truly repentant he will move out. If he doesn’t separate himself from his sinful situation it shows that he is not truly sorry; and if not sorry He will not be forgiden. Are you really sorry for you sin? This is what you wrote:
Starfish: "So, I apologize for divorcing and remarrying. No, I don’t. I have a wonderful husband… ".
I have no doubt that he is wonderful, but that doesn’t make the marriage valid. You can only be married to one person at a time, and no man can “put asunder what God has joined together”. Therefore, if you were married to your first husband no piece of paper granted by a judge can undo it. It is 'till death do you part.
If your first marriage was invalid it is different; but for this to be determined you will need to seek an annulment. I really think that God is calling you back to Him. The signs are pretty evident. I think it is He who led you here.
Let us all be sure to include Starfish in our prayers.
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crm114
Guest
A drunk driver tried to end your husband’s life? Really? Was it an accident, or willful and deliberate attempt to kill?
Any chance this is a wee exaggeration, like the dubious claims you asserted about the teaching you received in your youth?
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crm114
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BTW I am still waiting for you to reply to my question about how you and pastor Megachuch know what documents are part of the Bible at your “Bible-believing” church. Surely you are not relying upon the authority of the Catholic Church to determine the canon of scripture. And so what authority do you rely upon? And what is the source of its authority? Inquiring minds want to know.
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JRKH
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crm114
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JRKH, your advice is good. We should always assume good intentions on the part of everyone. Palm Sunday is no time to pick a fight. Thank you for the fraternal correction.
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