I See So Many Dissention Threads Here, Why Do You Insist? Know The Truth!!!!!

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reen12:
Dear steve b, and arcturus,

“Jesus doesn’t establish useless things. He establishes His Church as the pillar and foundation of truth, precisely to lead all who enter it, into salvation.” quote, steve b

I take your point.

You see, there are millions of Christians out there
in the world who hold that:
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Hi Reen,

Are you disagreeing that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church that is here to lead all who enter it into salvation?
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reen12:
-the Church, by the sixteenth century, had
burdened people with ‘laws’ which* they* saw
as a return to the status quo of Mosaic Law
at the time of Paul…and which Paul stated
was useless in terms of salvation. Not the
same laws, but the same theology…works save.
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In the 16th century Protestants confused the issue between “works of law” and “good works”. Many Protestant groups still can’t get that difference straight. They see them as the same thing.
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reen12:
You may not agree with this position, but it is
one fiercly held by some of our fellow Christians.
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We’re here to dispell the darkness with truth
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reen12:
I surely disagree with arcturus characterizing
this as ‘confusion’…that would imply deliberate
activity on the part of churchmen, and I don’t
for one minute believe that.

The more I contemplate the RC/Protestant
positions, the more I think that it was
*misempahsis *on both sides that landed us
with the unraveling of the unity of the Christian faith.

reen12
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It was more than that Reen. It was about theology for sure, but also it was about power grab, stealing wealth, greed, & good old fashion disobedience to authority.
 
Dear steve b,

“We’re here to dispell the darkness with truth”
quote, steve b

OK.

“It was more than that Reen. It was about theology for sure, but also it was about power grab, stealing wealth, greed,…”
quote, steve b

I’m with you up til now, OK? No disagreement.

“…good old fashion disobedience to authority…”
quote, steve b

That authority over-stepped it’s mandate, IMHO.

If it is claimed that the RCC is the Church in direct line
from Jesus, you’ll get no argument from me.

Gorgeous liturgy, dignity, standing against
the culture of death, as Pope John Paul II
said over and over again. Some of the finest
minds and souls the world has ever seen over
twenty centuries. An astounding clarity in theology.
Most of all, the doctrine of the Real Presence.
Some of the most cultured minds in the
world are part of her hierarchy. No argument
on any of this, steve b.

But clearer and more insistently than all of the
above, I hear the hymn:

Amazing grace…
that saved a wretch like me…
'Twas grace that brought me safe, thus far,
and grace will lead me home.

I appreciate your response. It has helped me to
clarify my own thought. It is the theology of
non-Catholic Christians, conveyed to me through
their…hymns.

So defend the Church with your whole heart
mind and strength. For it is the true Church,
in some sense.

But I find Jesus, and love Him with my whole
heart, mind and strength, while sitting on a curb,
listening to a Salvation Army band playing Amazing Grace.
I’m in good company there on that curb, with people who have
been “down so long, bottom looks like up.”

reen12
 
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reen12:
For it is the true Church,
in some sense.

But I find Jesus, and love Him with my whole
heart, mind and strength, while sitting on a curb,
listening to a Salvation Army band playing Amazing Grace.
I’m in good company there on that curb, with people who have
been “down so long, bottom looks like up.”
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It doesn’t have to be either/or. You can find Jesus, and love Him with your whole heart, mind and strength, while sitting on a curb or anywhere else for that matter,** AND** be Catholic.
 
Dear Mickey,

“It doesn’t have to be either/or. You can find Jesus, and love Him with your whole heart, mind and strength, while sitting on a curb or anywhere else for that matter,** AND** be Catholic.”
quote, Mickey

You miss my point. Above the paragraph that you
quoted, I stated that it is non-Catholic Christian
theology, as presented in various hymns, that
I have come to accept. Hence, the band is playing
Amazing Grace. Sola gratia…sola fides.

[If I came from the planet Mungo, I could sit on
the curb and continue to be a Mungonian, too.
But with what theology?]

To me, Catholicism takes too much energy…
it’s all about what I *do *or think…Mass on Sunday
or mortal sin, this precept, that doctrine.
And there I sit, on the curb, maybe on a Sunday,
with just enough energy to hum Amazing Grace,
along with the band. Dazed, but glad that Jesus
loves me and accepts me-as I am, where I am.

From my perspective, Jesus has allowed some
circumstances in my life in order to bring about
radical trust in Him. If I do “works” it’s out of
love and gratitude. If I haven’t the strength [physical
or emotional] to move around a lot or to focus and
concentrate very well on a given day, I can pray.
There’s a stillness in all of this, a quiet.
Jesus was really good about seeing a person
in context. Another way of saying, Jesus is merciful.

He came for the feeble in heart, mind and emotion,
not only for the hardy.
But, then, you have to be curbside to *fully *appreciate
this view, existentially, as it were.

I’m glad there are so many hardy people about.
They keep things going and we can all be pleased
with that. But the hardy tend to overwhelm a
person like me. Jesus tends His flock even
outside the Church. Ask any of us curb-sitters.

reen12
 
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reen12:
I’m glad there are so many hardy people about.
They keep things going and we can all be pleased
with that. But the hardy tend to overwhelm a
person like me. Jesus tends His flock even
outside the Church. Ask any of us curb-sitters.
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Hi reen,

Indeed, Jesus sits everywhere, in all places, and transcends both time and space. He is there for the hardy and destitute; the stable and distressed.

Yes, Catholicism can take much energy. Some of Jesus’ teachings were hard and prompted His own disciples to walk away. But as you know, we all do as we are able. God will not give us more than we can bear. Sometimes, people comprehend the word “doctrine” as a dirty word. The doctrines, teachings, and disciplines of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are not meant to confine, restrain, or place undue burden on the individual. They are meant to guide us, so that we can grow and thrive in the love of Christ. Like children, some of us need more discipline than others.

I do not feel enslaved to the doctrines and teachings of the magisterium. My obedience to this vast theological wellspring assists me to go futher inward to the uncreated light. It is truly liberating, and it is truly by grace through faith.

Do not be overwhelmed by the hardy. “The meek shall inherit the earth”. 🙂

God Bless you!
 
Posted by reen12

From my perspective, Jesus has allowed some
circumstances in my life in order to bring about
radical trust in Him. If I do “works” it’s out of
love and gratitude. If I haven’t the strength [physical
or emotional] to move around a lot or to focus and
concentrate very well on a given day, I can pray.
There’s a stillness in all of this, a quiet.
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I am truly sorry you were unable to see that these things are exactly what the Catholic Church offer. Peace, stillness and quiet.

If you ever have the time and inclination, you may wish to read St. Francis de Sales, Introduction to a devout life. It is a book that helps us to see how we can turn our lives, our vocation into an offering and prayer to God.

For me, as a mother, in order to honor God I take care of my children and home. Speaking of children, time for me to pray and honor God through my wonderful blessings He gave me.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Mickey,

What a dear post that was! Thank you for
being you.🙂

“Yes, Catholicism can take much energy. Some of Jesus’ teachings were hard and prompted His own disciples to walk away. But as you know, we all do as we are able. God will not give us more than we can bear.” quote, Mickey

I’m glad that Jesus has you to proclaim your love
for Him through your love of His Church, and to
share that love and knowledge with others.

From my perspective, your ability reminds me of
an old Hassidic tale:

One day Reb Zusia felt bad that he couldn’t
be Moses. Moses pleased God mightily.
But then he thought: If I were Moses, God
wouldn’t have Zusia…

Signed,
Zusia 🙂

reen12
 
Dear Mickey,

“Ribbono shel Olam, Zusia is very hungry and desires to eat something!” 🙂 quote, Mickey

Ohhh you’re good!🙂

I do a rare thing, for me. You win the exchange!
Game, set, match.:blessyou:

reen12
aka Zusia

Master of the Universe, bless your servant, Mickey.
 
Dear Eden,

Your love is reciprocated, for sure.

I told my husband, that depite my own difficulties,
which I present with alarming frequency on these
forums:), the kindness and acceptance of
many, many posters is balm to my little, injured
heart.
[And I really don’t expect that that kindness
would constitute agreement with what I’m
usually saying.]

Thanks, Eden,
reen12
 
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reen12:
Dear steve b,

“…good old fashion disobedience to authority…”

That authority over-stepped it’s mandate, IMHO.

If it is claimed that the RCC is the Church in direct line
from Jesus, you’ll get no argument from me.
Click to expand...
Reen,

With that admission, you can’t remain seperated any longer.
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reen12:
Gorgeous liturgy, dignity, standing against
the culture of death, as Pope John Paul II
said over and over again. Some of the finest
minds and souls the world has ever seen over
twenty centuries. An astounding clarity in theology.
Most of all, the doctrine of the Real Presence.
Some of the most cultured minds in the
world are part of her hierarchy. No argument
on any of this, steve b.

But clearer and more insistently than all of the
above, I hear the hymn:

Amazing grace…
that saved a wretch like me…
'Twas grace that brought me safe, thus far,
and grace will lead me home.
Click to expand...
You swap the sacraments, the method Christ uses to give grace, for a song?
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reen12:
I appreciate your response. It has helped me to
clarify my own thought. It is the theology of
non-Catholic Christians, conveyed to me through
their…hymns.
Click to expand...
Hymns? That’s it for you?
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reen12:
So defend the Church with your whole heart
mind and strength. For it is the true Church,
in some sense.
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1st you say .the RCC is the Church in direct line
**from Jesus, you’ll get no argument from me. **Now you say it is the true Church in some sense? Which is it? Does Jesus not complete what he starts?
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reen12:
But I find Jesus, and love Him with my whole
heart, mind and strength, while sitting on a curb,
listening to a Salvation Army band playing Amazing Grace.
I’m in good company there on that curb, with people who have
been “down so long, bottom looks like up.”

reen12
Click to expand...
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. **On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” **Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe. “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

This is the promise Reen. This is doing it Jesus way not our way. There’s No other promise. The Eucharist is in the Catholic Church. It is not in any form of Protestantism. When I sing amazing grace, I understand what it really means. The Eucharist is the source of grace beyond compare.
 
oat soda:
it all comes down to absolute truth. we catholics believe that absolute truth exists and we can come to conform ourselves to the this truth. this truth exists regardless of us recognizing it. therefore, we ‘force’ (within reason) the truth on others because it is the truth. either way, you can never avoid forcing your views or religion on someone else. it is impossible. we are only being consistent with what we believe.
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I believe there is an absolute truth as well. It is not Christianity. And I have gone my whole life without forcing that opinion on anyone. Because I respect others right to find out on their own. So it is possible.

And I am glad your church now “forces” the truth “within reason”. Hopefully then there won’t be any more inquisitions. Because that’s what happens when you try to force spiritual truth on anyone. They end up being slaughtered “for their own good”.
 
AdsoOfFunkstown: I apologize if I missed the post in which you identify what you are. You say you are non-Christian. I see what you aren’t, I’m just curious what you are.
 
So, Catholics ask: why don’t all of you non-Catholics just see the truth and convert? Several responses are in order.

First, no one comes to faith in Jesus by seeing the irrefutable logic that a 14 year old virgin got pregnant, gave birth to God, who died just because, and now – presto – were saved! No one reads the Bible cover to cover and says: well, that is obvious. I need to be Catholic. It is the Spirit who gives us faith. We have the faith we are given. The Spirit may lead us in a different direction, but it is not up to me to tell the Spirit that the faith he gave me is wrong.

Second, as the rest of this site, and all the other ones like it, show, all sorts of “facts” on which non-Catholics should obviously base their conversion are not so obvious to those who do not accept them in the first place. Just go down this thread. The CC is the only one with a 2000 year history? Ask an Orthodox how obvious that fact is. And on and on and on. Lesson: these “facts” do not lead to faith. Rather, your faith leads to acceptance of the “facts”.

Third, I, as a Lutheran, may believe one thing. And a Presbyterian neighbor may believe another. Yet we both believe that there is one universal priesthood of all belivers. Sin causes disagreement among us, but that will never change. When we see some Catholics demanding female priests, and some demanding gay rights, and some saying “I don’t believe everything the Church teaches, but who does”, our collective response is, some unity! From our point of view, people who do not agree on doctrine, but stay in the same church for the purpose of changing it are fraudulent, and there is no more true unity within than without.

Fourth, the universal Christian Church (whatever you think it is) is a means to an end. It is not the end. God wants us to be saved. We can be saved outside the CC. Those in the CC are not guarenteed salvation. Rather than turning the CC into the end, you should be asking how the CC can better proclaim the Gospel.
 
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RonWI:
Second, as the rest of this site, and all the other ones like it, show, all sorts of “facts” on which non-Catholics should obviously base their conversion are not so obvious to those who do not accept them in the first place. Just go down this thread. The CC is the only one with a 2000 year history? Ask an Orthodox how obvious that fact is. And on and on and on. Lesson: these “facts” do not lead to faith. Rather, your faith leads to acceptance of the “facts”.
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Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and Orthodox, all have a 2000 year history as Christians. Does that lead to faith? No. We are saved by grace through faith. But it sure is a nice bonus to have the writings of the early church fathers, some of whom were disciples of the apostles. Sacred Tradition and Scripture makes for a beautiful complement.
 
Gottle of GeerIsn't the Japanese Empire about a generation older than the Church ?:
Older means it missed the mark, younger means it missed the mark. Jesus was here and established His Church 2000 years ago. The whole point is that the Catholic Church can trace directly back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

God Bless
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RonWI:
First, no one comes to faith in Jesus by seeing the irrefutable logic that a 14 year old virgin got pregnant, gave birth to God, who died just because, and now – presto – were saved! No one reads the Bible cover to cover and says: well, that is obvious. I need to be Catholic. It is the Spirit who gives us faith. We have the faith we are given. The Spirit may lead us in a different direction, but it is not up to me to tell the Spirit that the faith he gave me is wrong.
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I agree that we only come to see Truth through God’s grace.

I hope that when you refer to Mary as “a 14 year old virgin (who) got pregnant, gave birth to God” that the irreverent tone was unintentional. As Jesus was dying on the cross, His mother was there with Him and He said, “Woman, behold your son!” and to John He said, “Behold your mother!” At that moment, before He died, Jesus was offering to us all His mother as our own spiritual mother. You are right. We all have free will to accept or reject what Jesus has offered to us. I am aware that Protestants do not recognize Mary as their spiritual mother. I’m sure we would *all *agree that irreverence to Christ’s beloved mother is surely not pleasing to Him.
 
Dear steve b,

“You swap the sacraments, the method Christ uses to give grace, for a song?” quote, steve b

One more time:

“It is the theology of
non-Catholic Christians, conveyed to me through
their…hymns.” quote, reen12
"But clearer and more insistently than all of the
above, I hear the hymn:

Amazing grace…
that saved a wretch like me…
'Twas grace that brought me safe, thus far,
and grace will lead me home." quote, reen12
“You swap the sacraments, the method Christ uses to give grace, for a song?” quote steve b

ONE of the methods Christ uses to give grace,
steve b.

That’s why I can say it* is* the true Church, in some sense.
Even in the* normative* sense, if that eases things for you,
logically.
There’s a great, big, wide world out there.
People endure all kinds of things. You
don’t mind, do you, if the injured and broken
of the world find comfort* and* Christ outside
the theological world of Catholicism, do
you, steve b?

I read a commentary once, where the ‘shepherds
in the fields, keeping watch by night’ were said,
in all probability, to be unable to fulfill the Mosaic
Law, due to the nature of their work. The
angels of the Master of the Universe appeared
to them, with ‘glad tidings of great joy…’
even to them, steve b,

reen12
 
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