I seriously want to see the papal coronation brought back!

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callmeChris

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Lets forget for a moment that our society is watered down, easily offended and hungry for hate and drama. Lets forget the media’s corrupt and nitpicky and has the same form of respect and credibility like the news reports of old. How lovely would it be to see the Pope like this?
http://pirate.shu.edu/~wisterro/cdi/John XXIII - tiara.jpg

and like this

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

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The one thing I am jealous of with my grandparents is that they got to witness the beauty and majesty of the Papacy back when the Church wasn’t so watered down and when the outside world wasn’t so sacriligious and ignorant to the fundamentals and teachings of the Church. Does anyone in their personal opinion think we’ll have a Pope that will have the guts to bring back this amazing thing not caring what the media thinks? I’d like to think so hopefully and Godwilling it’ll happen in my lifetime. Im in my early 20s so never say never amirite? 🙂
 
callmeChris said:
Lets forget for a moment that our society is watered down, easily offended and hungry for hate and drama. Lets forget the media’s corrupt and nitpicky and has the same form of respect and credibility like the news reports of old. How lovely would it be to see the Pope like this?
http://pirate.shu.edu/~wisterro/cdi/John XXIII - tiara.jpg

and like this

http://totallyhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Pope-Pius-XII-in-Regalia.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--ph2gv9H_zE/UTp99HSLBLI/AAAAAAAADY0/SJmSjcwGkDg/s1600/Pope+Pius+XI+(2).jpg

The one thing I am jealous of with my grandparents is that they got to witness the beauty and majesty of the Papacy back when the Church wasn’t so watered down and when the outside world wasn’t so sacriligious and ignorant to the fundamentals and teachings of the Church. Does anyone in their personal opinion think we’ll have a Pope that will have the guts to bring back this amazing thing not caring what the media thinks? I’d like to think so hopefully and Godwilling it’ll happen in my lifetime. Im in my early 20s so never say never amirite? 🙂
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The spectacle would be marvellous perhaps but I highly doubt we’ll see a papal coronation again.

The reason why the coronation developed the way it did, resembling the coronation of any other monarch, was because from the Middle Ages until, ultimately, 1870, the Pope was not only the Bishop of Rome, etc, etc, but also the sovereign or monarch of rather large parts of Italy - the Papal States. The Coronation in effect (if not specifically in the language used during it, maybe) symbolised his temporal power. It’s certainly how it was seen by others.

In the homily during his inauguration, John Paul II stated:
“Pope John Paul I, whose memory is so vivid in our hearts, did not wish to have the tiara; nor does his Successor wish it today. This is not the time to return to a ceremony and an object considered, wrongly, to be a symbol of the temporal power of the Popes.”
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Even while he might be correct to say it’s considered “wrongly” to represent temporal power - this is exactly how it would be seen by virtually everyone. At best it would be grossly anachronistic (the Pope has no Papal States any more), and at worst it would be an egregious public relations blunder right on the opening day of some future pope’s pontificate.

The spirit of the Papacy since that of Paul VI (who laid his tiara on the altar and never wore it again), has been to emphasise humility rather than dominance. While you can always get ‘more humble’ as Francis did in organising his living arrangements in the Vatican - it’s rather hard politically to get ‘more opulent’ and claim still to be the servant of the poor. Especially today when every movement or utterance of the Pope, like other major world leaders, is heavily scrutinised.

Coronations of monarchs generally, interestingly, had long fallen by the wayside before the time of Paul VI, with the exception of Great Britain: most Western monarchs today are inaugurated rather than crowned. Prince Charles has intimated in the past, I believe, that he might prefer a lower-key inauguration when he finally succeeds his mother (although I rather suspect the coronation will ultimately be kept in the UK).

It might be fun to watch - but I’d be outstandingly surprised if there was ever another papal coronation.
 
Never see it in our lifetime, if ever again. Pray for the church.
 
I agree completely.

After all, the Church IS a monarchy. Christ is our King, the Pope is His Vicar. The monarchical trappings make perfect sense.
Murmurs said:
Coronations of monarchs generally, interestingly, had long fallen by the wayside before the time of Paul VI, with the exception of Great Britain: most Western monarchs today are inaugurated rather than crowned. Prince Charles has intimated in the past, I believe, that he might prefer a lower-key inauguration when he finally succeeds his mother (although I rather suspect the coronation will ultimately be kept in the UK).
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This also is tragic. I pray for a return to the monarchies of old, full of pomp and tradition. Republics are so bland and modern (redundant, I know).
 
It would be amazing if a Pope brought back the papal tiara and the traditional papal ceremonies. I am sure that it will come back someday.
 
ChaosGamma said:
I agree completely.

After all, the Church IS a monarchy. Christ is our King, the Pope is His Vicar. The monarchical trappings make perfect sense.

This also is tragic. I pray for a return to the monarchies of old, full of pomp and tradition. Republics are so bland and modern (redundant, I know).
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I agree. It would be great if monarchies came back.
 
Confiteor_Deo said:
I agree. It would be great if monarchies came back.
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Yes, while not visible in day-to-day life, I truly appreciate that Canada remains a constitutional monarchy. As mentioned earlier in this thread, there is something so bland and utilitarian with republics. The Church was very skeptical of republics for the longest time. Christian monarchy best reflects the heavenly order.
 
No, I would not like to see this. It’s very ostentatious and worldly. Christ came to the earth in a simple life - the kingship is spiritual not worldly.
 
ChaosGamma said:
After all, the Church IS a monarchy. Christ is our King, the Pope is His Vicar. The monarchical trappings make perfect sense.
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His Kingship is not of this world.
twf said:
I truly appreciate that Canada remains a constitutional monarchy. .
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Yet Her Majesty, whom I respect as a Canadian, is also the titular head of the Church of England, which the product of that nasty little bit of business in the 16th century…
Sunbreak said:
No, I would not like to see this. It’s very ostentatious and worldly. Christ came to the earth in a simple life - the kingship is spiritual not worldly.
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👍
 
Sunbreak said:
No, I would not like to see this. It’s very ostentatious and worldly. Christ came to the earth in a simple life - the kingship is spiritual not worldly.
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Are beautiful churches also ostentatious and worldly? Should we do away with this:



And replace it with this?
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I know I prefer to worship in a lecture hall. Who needs all that gold and ornamentation in the Temple, right?
 
OraLabora said:
His Kingship is not of this world.
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But we are IN this world. And as we’re not gnostics, there’s nothing wrong with making use of the things of this world to reinforce spiritual truths that we cannot now see.
Yet Her Majesty, whom I respect as a Canadian, is also the titular head of the Church of England, which the product of that nasty little bit of business in the 16th century…
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And Caesar claimed to be a god. What’s your point?
 
ChaosGamma said:
Are beautiful churches also ostentatious and worldly? Should we do away with this:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/89/be/09/89be099c7f05998a29a4a8776a194f7d.jpg

And replace it with this?
http://www.chilloutpoint.com/images/2010/07/modern-church-designs/modern-church-designs-02.jpg

I know I prefer to worship in a lecture hall. Who needs all that gold and ornamentation in the Temple, right?
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I prefer the second one. It is very monastic. Monastic churches have historically been fairly sober when it comes to decoration, even in pre-Conciliar times.

However, we have had a lengthy and acrimonious debate over this on this forum and there’s no need to rehash the same old points again and again. It suffices to say that for churches, tastes vary, as do traditions within the Church. Those traditions allow for both highly decorated churches, and plain ones. There’s no need to impose one’s vision on everyone. The beauty of the Church is that unlike Protestantism, many spiritual forms are allowed to thrive under the same tent. As I am a Benedictine Oblate, you’d expect that I prefer plainer churches, and you would be right. Which is why I prefer the second picture (I also like modern architecture). And I know I’m not alone.

This becomes almost like a Ford vs Chevy debate and is totally pointless.

As for the crown and coronation, I’ve long given up wishing for things that are completely out of my control, and prefer working on things that are within my abilities to do something about it, such as restoring Gregorian chant. That said I would not want an ostentatious coronation to return. I’m grateful to the Holy Father for bringing simplicity back to the papacy.
 
OraLabora said:
I prefer the second one. It is very monastic. Monastic churches have historically been fairly sober when it comes to decoration, even in pre-Conciliar times.

However, we have had a lengthy and acrimonious debate over this on this forum and there’s no need to rehash the same old points again and again. It suffices to say that for churches, tastes vary, as do traditions within the Church. Those traditions allow for both highly decorated churches, and plain ones. There’s no need to impose one’s vision on everyone. The beauty of the Church is that unlike Protestantism, many spiritual forms are allowed to thrive under the same tent. As I am a Benedictine Oblate, you’d expect that I prefer plainer churches, and you would be right. Which is why I prefer the second picture (I also like modern architecture). And I know I’m not alone.

This becomes almost like a Ford vs Chevy debate and is totally pointless.

As for the crown and coronation, I’ve long given up wishing for things that are completely out of my control, and prefer working on things that are within my abilities to do something about it, such as restoring Gregorian chant. That said I would not want an ostentatious coronation to return. I’m grateful to the Holy Father for bringing simplicity back to the papacy.
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I don’t really disagree with you. I don’t even really dislike the second pic I posted, I just couldn’t immediately find one more suitable. I really have no problem with plain churches. But that’s really incidental to the point I was making.

So why are highly ornamented churches okay, but a papal coronation is ostentatious and, according to the other poster at least, too worldly? What’s the difference, exactly?
 
OraLabora said:
I’m OK with constitutional monarchies for secular government but I sure as heck would not want to go back to reigns of absolute monarchs.
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Absolute monarchs were more of an early modern phenomenon. At least in the West. Medieval Christian monarchs often had limited power. The bishops and local nobility had great autonomy in most cases. That being said, the common people were definitely deprived of certain dignities and rights we take for granted today.
 
ChaosGamma said:
I don’t really disagree with you. I don’t even really dislike the second pic I posted, I just couldn’t immediately find one more suitable. I really have no problem with plain churches. But that’s really incidental to the point I was making.

So why are highly ornamented churches okay, but a papal coronation is ostentatious and, according to the other poster at least, too worldly? What’s the difference, exactly?
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Because a Vicar of Christ should be the first to try to emulate His form of kingship.
 
OraLabora said:
I prefer the second one. It is very monastic. Monastic churches have historically been fairly sober when it comes to decoration, even in pre-Conciliar times.

However, we have had a lengthy and acrimonious debate over this on this forum and there’s no need to rehash the same old points again and again. It suffices to say that for churches, tastes vary, as do traditions within the Church. Those traditions allow for both highly decorated churches, and plain ones. There’s no need to impose one’s vision on everyone. The beauty of the Church is that unlike Protestantism, many spiritual forms are allowed to thrive under the same tent. As I am a Benedictine Oblate, you’d expect that I prefer plainer churches, and you would be right. Which is why I prefer the second picture (I also like modern architecture). And I know I’m not alone.

This becomes almost like a Ford vs Chevy debate and is totally pointless.

As for the crown and coronation, I’ve long given up wishing for things that are completely out of my control, and prefer working on things that are within my abilities to do something about it, such as restoring Gregorian chant. That said I would not want an ostentatious coronation to return. I’m grateful to the Holy Father for bringing simplicity back to the papacy.
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Well stated.
Some people long for things that were from eons ago because they believe that will make things “better”.

Its just window dressing and would be viewed as such.
I prefer to focus on what the Church teaches…
The priests and sisters are the visible sign of the Church at work in this world. And us as well, hopefully.
Rather than the “stuff”.
:twocents:
 
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