I sin as soon as I finish confession, so what's the point?

[guanophore]

Welcome to CAF 4Jesus4!

I hope the original poster will see my reply. 4 days late. The only requirement for salvation is to believe. If you truly believe that God our Father sent Jesus His Son to die on the cross for our sins and you repent of your (past) sins then your are saved and are guaranteed to go to heaven when you die.

This is what you have been taught, but this is not what the Apostles believed and taught.

If this were true, we would not need a Church (which Jesus seemed to think was important, since He created it) or a Bible, which He inspired to be written.

When you tell Him you believe he will send the Holy Spirit to dwell within you and He will help you with removing the inclination to sin. Sin after salvation only damages your relationship with Him. It does not change the FACT that you are saved and going to heaven.

This theology is called “once saved, always saved” and was not created until the Reformation. But even those who invented such ideas in the 1600’s did not agree or teach this abberation that is represented here, that people who are saved go on sinning, like the OP.

But we will all agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the only thing that enables us to overcome temptations and sins. We are only saved by grace, through faith, not by following rules or becoming holy by willpower. We must be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

But only you know for sure whether or not you have actually changed your heart and have become a true Chriatian. Everything any Christian denomination piles on top of the truths I have just stated is unnecessary for
salvation.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

What has happened, 4Jesus4, is not that Catholics have “added on top”, but that denominations have progressively “subtracted”. The Apostles taught that saving faith is a faith that works (not just a confession of belief or a prayer). Saving faith is an obedient faith, a faith that sanctifies the saved person.

What you are saying does not square with the Scriptures.

…then you will fall in love with them and the Hole Spirit who is in you. After belief comes love and any sins you commit should bother you greatly because they damage the loving relationship you have with God. And you should be willing to work with the Holy Spirit to stop committing them.
1John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I think what the OP is saying is that this falling in love has not happened yet. Calvanists (such as yourself) will say that he has not been saved. The Apostles’ taught that he is walking by the flesh, and not by the Spirit.

Glad you are here 4Jesus4!

 

[4Jesus4]

Hello Guanophore,
I don’t normally post to these forums but was dismayed at the responses to the OP, they were so disheartening. I hope he will see the comments I added and find them much more sensible that many of the religions out there. If you believe you are saved. It really is that simple.

I would like to take the time to respond to your comments though.

In regards to your first set of comments. Can you tell me what the Bible and apostles taught? Are you saying you need the Church to be saved? Are you saying you need to be Catholic to be saved? What would I say to a person who I just meet and they don’t know anything about the Bible or Catholicism and they are dying in the next 30 minutes due to an accident or something? Is this person lost?

On you second set of comments. You seem to be saying that once you are saved and thereby indwelled by the HS that you will no longer sin? Why then do you have confession? Does that mean all Catholics are not saved? Or are they only saved from the time they leave the confessional until the sin again. This is why the OP was so disheartened. This is a no win scenario. If anyone saved or unsaved would tell me they no longer sin I would call them a liar.

On your third set of comments. I am not part of a religion or denomination, I am a Christian. I have never really tried to understand protestant stuff, but I love how your comment outlined that the Catholic Church added and protestants subtracted because I think that captures it pretty well. I guess when I am talking to a Catholic I am on the subtraction side. Not sure if that makes me protestant but call me whatever you want. I will still call myself Christian. As I asked in the responses above please tell me what it takes to be saved and to add on to that tell me when I will know I am saved.

On your last comments. Calvinist hmmmm I don’t know what that means, see above. Maybe I will look into that sometime. Probably not though. I might agree that the OP may not be saved but I can’t say that without judging. He may have an addiction to sex that is going to be hard to overcome, but the Holy Spirit will be a great helper with that and it may take some time. We all walk in the flesh when we sin. And we all sin, even the saved. We just need to continue to allow the HS to do a good work in us and bring us to a point where we sin less and less. This is part of the sanctification process. It is an ongoing thing.

Looking forward to any answers to my questions you feel compelled to provide.

 

[guanophore]

Hello Guanophore,

I don’t normally post to these forums but was dismayed at the responses to the OP, they were so disheartening. I hope he will see the comments I added and find them much more sensible that many of the religions out there.

I am glad that you did in this case, 4Jesus4, because it highlights how drastically modern Evangelical views have departed from Apostolic Christianity. The OP is struggling because he knows that obedience is part of the faith.

If you believe you are saved. It really is that simple.

And simply inconsistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

 I would like to take the time to respond to your comments though.

In regards to your first set of comments. Can you tell me what the Bible and apostles taught?

Of course! It is infallibly preserved by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church.

Are you saying you need the Church to be saved? Are you saying you need to be Catholic to be saved?

Jesus chose to save humanity through the Church. Jesus only founded One Church, and it is Catholic. No one is saved any other way.

What would I say to a person who I just meet and they don’t know anything about the Bible or Catholicism and they are dying in the next 30 minutes due to an accident or something? Is this person lost?

I think you would say that if the person prays a certain prayer, and chooses to believe in Jesus, then he will be saved. I think this view is “lost”, but whether a soul is “lost” only God knows.

 On you second set of comments. You seem to be saying that once you are saved and thereby indwelled by the HS that you will no longer sin?

I don’t think I said that, no. If we say we have no sin, then we do not the truth.

 Why then do you have confession? Does that mean all Catholics are not saved? Or are they only saved from the time they leave the confessional until the sin again. This is why the OP was so disheartened. This is a no win scenario. If anyone saved or unsaved would tell me they no longer sin I would call them a liar.

LOL, yes, I would say such a person is deceiving htemselves.

The problem we are having here, 4Jesus4, is that we have a different understanding of what “saved” means.

Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin as never changed. Sin still can separate us from God. The modern errant view is somehow that sin no longer can separate us from God, which is a falsehood.

I think the OP is discouraged and hopeless because he is not leading a Spirit filled life.

 On your third set of comments.  I am not part of a religion or denomination, I am a Christian. I have never really tried to understand protestant stuff

Most modern evangelicals do not understand the history of their beliefs. Many have never heard of Calvin, or Zwingli. This ignorance does not prevent them from being contaminated by heretical views.

but I  love how your comment outlined that the Catholic Church added and protestants subtracted because I think that captures it pretty well. I guess when I am talking to a Catholic I am on the subtraction side. Not sure if that makes me protestant but call me whatever you want. I will still call myself Christian. As I asked in the responses above please tell me what it takes to be saved and to add on to that tell me when I will know I  am saved.

Yes, it makes you Protestant. You are a Christian that denies the Catholic faith handed down to us from the Apostles. Protestants are welcome here!

As far as knowing when you are saved, it sounds to me like you already “know” this. From an Apostolic point of view, we will know this when we pass from this life, and are judged by our Maker.

Here are some Catholic resources on the topic of salvation:

catholic.com/video/what-do-catholics-believe-about-salvation

catholic.com/quickquestions/how-should-a-catholic-reply-to-the-question-have-you-been-saved

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-catholic-understanding-of-the-biblical-plan-of-salvation

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

catholic.com/magazine/articles/are-you-saved-if-only

On your last comments. Calvinist hmmmm I don’t know what that means, see above. Maybe I will look into that sometime. Probably not though.

I mostly posted that for others reading the thread, so that they might know the origin of this line of thinking. I would say that the vast majority of Protestants have no idea how much their theology has been shaped by Calvanism. They just think they are taking the “biblical” view.

 I might agree that the OP may not be saved but I can't say that without judging.

None of us can, nor should we.

He may have an addiction to sex that is going to be hard to overcome, but the Holy Spirit will be a great helper with that and it may take some time. We all walk in the flesh when we sin. And we all sin, even the saved. We just need to continue to allow the HS to do a good work in us and bring us to a point where we sin less and less. This is part of the sanctification process. It is an ongoing thing.

Amen!

There are many aspects of the Apostolic faith that have been retained by our Protestant siblings. :yup:

Looking forward to any answers to my questions you feel compelled to provide.

Not a compulsion, just a hobby.

 

[4Jesus4]

Guanophore,

Thanks for your reply. You never really answered my questions but that’s OK. You really just pulled out the Church and infallibility stuff and threw that at me. There is nothing in the Bible about infallibility. That was invoked by the Catholic church many years after the Bible and I’m not sure if it wasn’t in response to the Protestant Reformation. I don’t read up on that stuff so I guess I could be off base on that. I can’t see how any human being or collection of human beings could be infallible. Peter wasn’t infallible, he denied the Lord 3 times. God would never change anything associated with our human nature individually or collectively.

I read all the links you provided but some of them contradict the others. There is some interesting interpretations of the Bible especially about once saved always saved. I can see both in the Bible depending on how you want to interpret them. It is kind of funny that you as a Catholic would send me to a blog about important stuff like this when the person who is writing it is a lay person as you call them. If I was a Catholic I would only read those words as if they were one person’s interpretation of the Bible on a certain topic. No infallibility there right?

What the HS has taught me is that what was written in the Bible is God’s Word. And therefore what is written in the Bible is all you need to be saved. The thief on the cross told Jesus he believed and was sorry for his sins….SAVED! We don’t need to do any more than what he did. It IS that simple. Yes we have to persevere in our faith in Him until we die….that is only logical. Yes, we are to yield good fruits….seems to be another logical outcome of someone with the HS inside them. But those are not requirements for salvation, they are just the spiritual fruit of a true believer. A true believer will WANT to produce good fruit for the One he loves.

My faith and the HS inside me will keep me from falling away, so I am certain that I am going to heaven. I find it incomprehensible that someone who truly believes can ever stop believing but I won’t say it can’t happen. It can only be blasphemy for anyone to say that God the Father gave up His only Son to come down to earth and die a horrible death to save me but that I can’t know for sure until after I die if I am truly saved.

He has shown me that the only reason I am saved is because I chose to believe, and the only reason I continue in His love is because He is inside me to help me when my human sin nature is too weak to resist temptations. Unfortunately sometimes my sin nature is able to win the moment but He just tells me that is because I am not close enough to Him and need to pull closer through His Word, prayer, and fellowship. These weak moments always make me sorrowful and repentant, but He says it does not mean I have lost my salvation even for 1 millisecond. The person who is on their death bed and does not know anything about Jesus only needs to be told the Truth from His Word and if they truly believe and dies in the next minute he will be in heaven with Jesus AND the thief on the cross! The act of accepting His saving grace must be the simplest of all acts. Believe. That is EXACTLY what Jesus said.

He has shown me I do need a church to fellowship with other Christians as it is a very important part of living in faith. But He has also shown me I don’t need the Church or any church to be saved or to stay saved.

My initial response to the OP was in an of itself an outpouring of the HS inside me to him. If it was my human nature I would have never responded and just said to myself “I hope he figures it out”. I do hope he is still following this blog and is seeing what the HS is helping me to communicate.

I feel compelled to stop posting as I noticed when I logged on that I shouldn’t take issue with the Catholic faith and I think I have done that. I want to respect that. Would you agree that I should stop posting on these blogs. I only found this website because I did a search on Christian question and this came up. When I started looking around and saw this specific blog again I felt compelled to reach out to the OP.

Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore,

Thanks for your reply. You never really answered my questions but that’s OK. You really just pulled out the Church and infallibility stuff and threw that at me.

I don’t think I included any links on infallibilty…

Oh, were you referring to my statement that what is needed for salvation is preserved by the Holy Spirit in the Church?

I guess I could type all that stuff over into the text box here, but my answer about what we need to be saved does not depart from what has been handed down to us from the Apostles. We don’t really have a “readers digest” version.

There is nothing in the Bible about infallibility.

Well, we read it differently, do we not? Catholics read the Bible through the lens of the faith by which it was penned. Those who are not connected this way to the Apostolic faith read it in many and various ways.

That was invoked by the Catholic church many years after the Bible and I’m not sure if it wasn’t in response to the Protestant Reformation.

I think we must be thinking of two different things. But you are right, the dogma of infallibilty was not a response to the reformation. I was talking about the infallible act of God, giving the once for all deposit of faith to the Church, and promising to prevent the Church from error.

I don’t read up on that stuff so I guess I could be off base on that. I can't see how any human being or collection of human beings could be infallible. Peter wasn’t infallible, he denied the Lord 3 times. God would never change anything associated with our human nature individually or collectively.

I thank God that your statement is not true, and that we can truly be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

Infallibility is when God works through a person to prevent error from occurring. It does not mean that each and every act of that person is always without error. Peter acted infallibly when he gave sentence to Ananias and Sapphira. All the writers of scriptures acted infallibly when they penned the words.

It is not the human beings, or collections of human beings that are infallible, but the acts that God desires to preserve from error. If God did not do such things, we would not have the SCriptures.

I read all the links you provided but some of them contradict the others. There is some interesting interpretations of the Bible especially about once saved always saved. I can see both in the Bible depending on how you want to interpret them. It is kind of funny that you as a Catholic would send me to a blog about important stuff like this when the person who is writing it is a lay person as you call them. If I was a Catholic I would only read those words as if they were one person’s interpretation of the Bible on a certain topic. No infallibility there right?

We can all benefit from the gift of infallibility to the extent that we embrace, live, and teach what is inspired and inerrant. You are right that the OP does not understand what salvation is all about, and this is true of many Catholics.

Are you saying that the links did not give you a better view of how Catholics understand salvation differently?

What the HS has taught me is that what was written in the Bible is God’s Word. And therefore what is written in the Bible is all you need to be saved.

Yes, Catholics believe that the Scriptures are Inspired and Inerrant, and are such because they were written under the gift of infallibility. The Holy Spirit moved human beings to write without error.

While Catholics believe the Bible is very important to our journey of salvation, we also believe that Jesus did not do anything unnecessary. He did not write books, but established the Church, and he organized that Church to have gifts and authority so that the believers could be shepherded on their journey.

The thief on the cross told Jesus he believed and was sorry for his sins….SAVED! We don’t need to do any more than what he did.

It so happens I agree with you. Anyone who is crucified next to Christ and places their faith in Him while hanging next to HIm, receiving His pardon, will be saved.

It IS that simple. Yes we have to persevere in our faith in Him until we die….that is only logical.

This latter part is a little beyond “simple” wouldn’t you say? I agree, it is logical. This is why Jesus gave us a Church.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, we are to yield good fruits….seems to be another logical outcome of someone with the HS inside them. But those are not requirements for salvation, they are just the spiritual fruit of a true believer. A true believer will WANT to produce good fruit for the One he loves.

Catholics believe we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. But our view of saving faith is that it is a faith that works.

We also note that there is no mention of this term “true believer” in scripture. This is also a modern innovation. While we would agree that a “true believer” will bear fruit. we are also aware that there are many who have prayed the “salvation prayer” or become baptized that still lack these good fruits. Paul addressed letters to some of these, and he wrote his letters to believers.

 My faith and the HS inside me will keep me from falling away, so I am certain that I am going to heaven. I find it incomprehensible that someone who truly believes can ever stop believing but I won’t say it can’t happen. It can only be blasphemy for anyone to say that God the Father gave up His only Son to come down to earth and die a horrible death to save me but that I can’t know for sure until after I die if I am truly saved.

Well, we see it differently, don’t we?

He has shown me that the only reason I am saved is because I chose to believe, and the only reason I continue in His love is because He is inside me to help me when my human sin nature is too weak to resist temptations. Unfortunately sometimes my sin nature is able to win the moment but He just tells me that is because I am not close enough to Him and need to pull closer through His Word, prayer, and fellowship. These weak moments always make me sorrowful and repentant, but He says it does not mean I have lost my salvation even for 1 millisecond. The person who is on their death bed and does not know anything about Jesus only needs to be told the Truth from His Word and if they truly believe and dies in the next minute he will be in heaven with Jesus AND the thief on the cross! The act of accepting His saving grace must be the simplest of all acts. Believe. That is EXACTLY what Jesus said.

I think you are doing something the OP is not.

He has shown me I do need a church to fellowship with other Christians as it is a very important part of living in faith. But He has also shown me I don’t need the Church or any church to be saved or to stay saved.

I don’t think that the Holy Spirit reveals one thing to one of His followers, and the opposite to another. I think there is only One Faith.

My initial response to the OP was in an of itself an outpouring of the HS inside me to him. If it was my human nature I would have never responded and just said to myself “I hope he figures it out”. I do hope he is still following this blog and is seeing what the HS is helping me to communicate.

Your faith seems to be very strong, and I am glad you decided to participate.

I feel compelled to stop posting as I noticed when I logged on that I shouldn't take issue with the Catholic faith and I think I have done that. I want to respect that. Would you agree that I should stop posting on these blogs. I only found this website because I did a search on Christian question and this came up. When I started looking around and saw this specific blog again I felt compelled to reach out to the OP.

Thanks.

This is an apologetics site, so it is full of people taking issue with the Catholic faith. That is why we are here!

People such as yourself, who have other non-Catholic ideas are welcome here, so long as the dialogue is respectful. It seems to me that yours has been. If the OP had your faith and commitment, he would relieve himself of much suffering.

 

[fred_conty]

I am greatly troubled. Since becoming Catholic officially 2 years ago (I am 45 year old married man and father of one), I have become more and more miserable, and more and more sure of my eternal damnation. I cannot stop sinning. I go to adoration every other week, and talk to Jesus, asking for help. I haven’t missed weekly Mass or a Day of Obligation in 3 years. I ask for help in my unbelief, for help in knowing the right path, and being sure of the Faith. I never feel any answer. I only feel hopeless and helpless.

Sin feels good…especially of the sexual variety, and I tell myself, why would God make it this way to be so tempting? Perhaps it’s true that some of us are just not chosen, and that I am damned, so why not just sin and enjoy the time I have here before I die and burn in eternal pain? I go to confession, but it seems so repetitive now that I go less and less. I sin almost immediately after leaving the confessional, at least in thought. My lust for women is overpowering. I see an attractive woman and all I can think about is that.

Saying the rosary does nothing for me. It feels like repetitive chanting. I am so depressed. I was hoping becoming Catholic would turn my life around, but has left me in more despair. You will all say how it’s the devil lying in my ear, and tempting me, and so on, and how I am succumbing to the devil. You will suggest I pray to Mary, or say the Rosary, or wear a scapular, or keep some saint card near me, or icon of Mary or some other Saint. I’ve read it all here before.

I just don’t know why the Holy Spirit won’t give me Faith? Why can’t I embrace Belief? Why can’t I have certainty about God, especially as He relates to Catholicism? I believe there is God, and that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that this world or universe could exist without a Creator, but I am doubting more and more His personal involvement with my life. I fear death. I am obsessed with my mortality. I worry that if I quit doing something I like that is “sinful”, I will just be even more miserable, and if there is nothing after, then I will have lived a life I didn’t ask for in way that I didn’t want to live it. Basically, I just feel depressed and hopeless, scared and worried, and I don’t know what to do about any of it anymore.

It looks to me that you are in despair. That you have tried and tried and have failed. And then this observation sometimes turns into holding it against God that he isn’t doing more for you than he is. And that is an attitude that won’t obtain grace. Whatever you do, it is important that you don’t start grieving against God, but rather looking to yourself and holding yourself responsible.

You are in this situation because you have been in this over a long period of time. So be humble before God, and tell him it is all your own fault, and beg him to have mercy on you. Repeat that often to him in prayer. If you tell him it is your own fault, that you regret this, and to please have mercy on you … that will win his favor. You have to depend on him and tell him so. Beg him. Tell him you love him.

Just remember one thing … he loves you very much and never doubt that for a moment. If you are not getting anywhere, it must be your approach and not that he dosen’t love you. Change your approach … be humble and honest with him and yourself and put the blame where it belongs. It is a church teaching that Christ died for everyone … this includes you. He suffered for your specific sins. Don’t ever think he doesn’t care for you. He died for you in a very horrific way. Never doubt for a moment his love for you.

You might say I am being hard on you, but I’m not. I’m just being honest which is the greatest part of humility, to see things, others, yourself, as they really are. Humble yourself, trust him, beg, love, and see the difference it will make.

Some sort of mortification helps too to put some punch into your prayers.

One last thing, you must confess all your serious sins. And if there are sins where they might have been serious but have not been confessed, confess them. You cannot have any thing unconfessed that might have been serious for it will put a wall up between you and God. If you have to, go back years and confess what may be putting obstacles between you and Christ. He can’t work in you if there are obstacles. He knows every little thing bothering you, so be sure to confess these things so the devil cannot use them. You won’t have peace if you don’t. You don’t have to do this for venial sins. If you are scrupulous, it is best to mention this before confessing.

You will beat this problem I’m sure. Jesus is very patient with us, but he does ask us to keep carrying our cross and picking it up after we fall. If you do this, he will see you thru.

 

[Porknpie]

The thief on the cross told Jesus he believed and was sorry for his sins….SAVED! We don’t need to do any more than what he did.

4Jesus4 -

Why does Jesus himself add to what you say above?

*16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” *

Also, do you understand that the good thief did more than just believe? In perhaps the greatest “work” ever, the “just” criminal rebuked the other, defending Jesus as he lay dying on the cross. This is the greatest example I know … of faith working through love.

"39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was [a]hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”