I still just don't get it

[Tonks40]

If you’re looking for definitive, bottom line answers from Catholics regarding salvation outside of the Church, here’s one:

There’s no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Yes, it lines up with the Catechism and with what the Magisterium teaches. Yes, in this Catholic’s opinion, it is the only assured means of salvation. Does that mean to me that non-Catholics are not eligible for salvation? I don’t know. I leave that up to God.

We believe that non-Catholics who receive a valid baptism are part of the Church…valid = baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. From there we hope they learn about Christ and His Church, and accept what He laid out for us through the Church. Anyone who does not accept what the Church teaches and is actively a part of His Church puts his salvation in a very precarious position.

I believe if you ask any devout Catholic who understands this teaching will tell you the same thing. Yes, it’s harsh. Personally on this forum I’ve refrained from stating this because as you can see, it can ruffle a lot of feathers from many of our non-Catholic brethren, and I try to always operate in the mode of charity. That supposive “lack of agreement” between Catholics on this issue (and many others) really does only come down to semantics in language. If there is true disagreement amongst us, then we understand that it could be the lack of true understanding of this teaching, or that the person has actually departed from it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=mozart-250;4011341What I don’t understand is exactly what y’all think of us.

One person here very well articulated based on the pronouncements of past popes that my only hope of seeing the pearly gates would be invincible ignorance, which hardly applies in my case.

Another person here very well articulated based on the Catechism is that “I am already Catholic but just don’t know it yet” (in purgatory I will see the light).

Maybe I am stupid, but I just can’t reconcile these statements.

Both of the above Catholic quotes are correct and then some. What you articulate here applies to many different circumstantces. You are dealing with generalities. Just as quoted “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic church” What needs to be understood here when the Saint makes that statement the mind set and what is believed from the heart of Catholics and sacred scripture/sacred Tradition. That as you mentioned, there is no seperation from the Body of Jesus Christ which is the Catholic church instituted by Jesus himself. If you take those words as they sit on the page, it can sound blasphemous to the unbeliever. But those who know from the heart that Jesus is fully present in his body the Catholic church. See Ephesians chapt. 4-6

As for the ignorance of the Faith, this statement applied to those indeginous people or those such as Ghandi who outside of the Catholic church, still practiced Christian morals and principals, loving his enemies and his neighbor. There are many different examples that apply.

As far as those baptised, but do not subscribe to the authority of Jesus Christ in his Catholic church, nor the sacraments. The term ignorance may apply, until knowledge of the Truth is revealed. And the Truth does not get revealed if pride stands against reason, logic and faith. This person must continue to seek Jesus in his life. God is ultimately the Judge. The Catholic church and her magesterium is working to administer the saving grace through the sacraments Jesus instituted for her to administer for all ages. Otherwise it is the individuals own will to accept Jesus teachings when he/she hears the Truth. For it is God alone who teaches us.

Purgatory is a state of the soul in grace already on the journey to heaven, but all that keeps the soul from heaven are the stains of venial sin. For nothing unclean will enter heaven. The only advice for the soul here, is to repent and believe the gospel. Maybe it is time, one seeks the graces await them in the sacraments. For it is through the sacraments, when we can see with eyes of faith, and hear the truth with ears to hear. So instead of questioning from the outside of the body of Jesus Christ. It is time to look from the inside, so that God can reveal himself to those outside the body of Jesus Christ and his true presence.

I am not aware of any person in history to come to the full knowledge of Jesus Christ, and then reject him other than the father of lies, who is eternally damned. So all have fallen short of the glory of God, but God placed here on earth the ministry of reconiliation in his Church so that when sin abounds, grace upon grace is given for all those who leave their pride and succumb to the peace of Jesus Christ.

Your not the first to come against these hard questions, many Saints battled with these truth’s before succumbing to the body of Jesus Christ, I recall St.'s Paul and Augustine etc… These learned men of faith, gave up all the world could give them for the Sacramental life in Jesus body on earth, that promises and gives eternal life.

What you should understand about the Cathechism is that it is our rule of faith. When a circumstance comes up about the saving of the soul, there is always hope in the body of Jesus Christ no matter what this side of the grave, other than purgatory. That is why Jesus set up the magesterium so that the head in heaven can bind and loose with his body on earth the Pope and magesterium can bind and loose. This powerful authority Jesus rested on Peter is excercised to save souls not judge and condemn them.

Ps. the statement " there is no salvation outside the Catholic church" was made when there was no other Christian church exisiting but the Catholic church. This is something to reflect upon.

Just a thought.

 

[ibkc]

I dunno, but to me “invincible ignorance” is pretty much plain English.

If you are ignorant of Catholicism, you can get a pass for not being Catholic. But for somebody like me who probably understands Catholicism more than many or most Catholics and still obstinately refuses to convert, well…how do I put it…we fry when we die.

Yes, you are understanding it as I do. I think where the confusion comes in is people trying to broaden the meaning of “invincible ignorance.”

I do have to wonder why, if you understand Church teaching “more than many or most Catholics” and still reject the Church, this particular doctrine bothers you. If you think the Church is full of it, then why does it matter if some/many of us are terribly worried for your soul. (And I don’t say that in a joking manner. I do worry for you and those like you.)

 

[sarahpackars]

i beleive that as long as you have a good, respectable life, you can still have salvation, and i’m a very ardent catholic. as long as you were a good person, you can still go to heaven, after purgatory of course. because there are some that don’t know what catholosism is. some that aren’t allowed to be catholic. as long as ppl live by some form of a code of values, i beleives that they can be forgiven.

 

[kalt]

I understand. I have read the relevant quotes in the Catechism.

From what I have observed here, the folks who believe “I am already Catholic but just don’t know it yet” have as their starting point the Catechism. I get the point. Catholics (actually anyone) should be able to read the Catechism to determine what Catholics believe.

But from what I have also believed here, the folks who believe “Protestants bake in the lake” start with the pronounciations of previous popes that are incapable of being incorrect. They note these pronounciations have a higher authority level within Catholicism than the Catechism.

They also seem to have a point. And if I read these statements of old, it certainly does not sound like these popes believed we were “separated brethren”.

The only infallible statements made by the Church are those made from the chair.

I haven’t seen the quotes you’re talking about.

There seem to be a lot of mean-spirited Catholics on this board. They’re arrogant and self-righteous. They’re downright unChristian, if you ask me.

Don’t take your Catechism lessons from them. They aren’t interested in teaching you about Catholicism. They’re interested only is showing you that Catholicism is superior to your religion, and mostly that they, by being smart enough to be Catholic, are head and shoulders above you.

Some of them may be able to quote this or that–helped, no doubt, by quick Internet searches–to suppor their views. But I have no doubt that if you ask them to expound on these statements, they would have to run back to the Internet to get more info.

Though they’re good a quick searches and have all the apologetics sites bookmarked, they have a lot to learn about Christianity.

I’m all for a good debate. But what I’ve seen here lately is not debate.

It’s a wonder any non-Catholics post here.

If nothing else, this forum is a good example to show others that Catholicism is everything the critics say it is. It’s a real shame, because it really isn’t. A few bad apples.

 

[mozart-250]

Yes, you are understanding it as I do. I think where the confusion comes in is people trying to broaden the meaning of “invincible ignorance.”

I do have to wonder why, if you understand Church teaching “more than many or most Catholics” and still reject the Church, this particular doctrine bothers you. If you think the Church is full of it, then why does it matter if some/many of us are terribly worried for your soul. (And I don’t say that in a joking manner. I do worry for you and those like you.)

Actually, believe it or not, it does not bother me in the least that you are worried for my soul (actually you have a degree of respect from me because of this). Now I disagree with it because I do not see anyplace in the Bible that says I have to be a card carrying Catholic to have eternal life. But I also understand that you are not operating under the limitation of having to see something in the Bible in order to believe something as dogma.

If anything bothers me is the lack of consistent answers from Catholics (and from Catholic sources) about the relative peril my soul may or may not be in because I obstinately refuse to convert to Catholicism. You see, my eternal soul is important to me, and I don’t want to take unnecessary risks here.

I would think that any faith that has the advantage of a magisterium that can not err in matter of faith and morals can give me a clear and consistent answer on my foolish questions. But maybe that is an unrealistic expectation.

 

[mercygate]

I understand all of that from your perspective (now I disagree but that is outside of the scope of this thread…I will piggyback my answers to your questions with Triune Unity).

What I don’t understand is exactly what y’all think of us.

One person here very well articulated based on the pronouncements of past popes that my only hope of seeing the pearly gates would be invincible ignorance, which hardly applies in my case.

Another person here very well articulated based on the Catechism is that “I am already Catholic but just don’t know it yet” (in purgatory I will see the light).

Maybe I am stupid, but I just can’t reconcile these statements.

I would think that with the advantage of an infallible magisterium and tradition (as opposed to us who poor folks who are disadvantaged with just the Bible), that I would get one answer to the question of where I stand.

Why would you ask people on an Internet forum for answers to such important questions? You’re a really smart guy. Well above the average, even in this elite little gathering.

I’m not sure why you ask “what do y’all think about us?” Basically, the Catholic position is to articulate the Catholic position; while individuals might have “thoughts” they don’t amount to much. Like a Secret Service agent, we learn to detect the genuine $20 bill so we can spot a counterfeit without even breaking a sweat.

I’m basically thinkin’ about y’all: Gosh. That Mozart-250 is a really good guy. Good heart. Strong faith in Christ. I hope we’ll be receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord side by side before too long. :tiphat:

 

[ibkc]

If anything bothers me is the lack of consistent answers from Catholics (and from Catholic sources) about the relative peril my soul may or may not be in because I obstinately refuse to convert to Catholicism. You see, my eternal soul is important to me, and I don’t want to take unnecessary risks here.

I would think that any faith that has the advantage of a magisterium that can not err in matter of faith and morals can give me a clear and consistent answer on my foolish questions. But maybe that is an unrealistic expectation.

As a newly converted Catholic with somewhat traditionalist tendencies, I actually understand and agree with your concern. Discussing the reasons for this disconnect might be better for the “traditionalist” section of CAF or even another forum altogether. It seems to be a touchy subject for a lot of people.

 

[mercygate]

I dunno, but to me “invincible ignorance” is pretty much plain English.

If you are ignorant of Catholicism, you can get a pass for not being Catholic. But for somebody like me who probably understands Catholicism more than many or most Catholics and still obstinately refuses to convert, well…how do I put it…we fry when we die.

While Catholics do not presume to make individual judgments on the souls of others., *Dominus Iesus *stated clearly that once you discern and accept that the Catholic Church is THE Church, to remain outside it puts your soul in great peril. Even that language doesn’t close the coffin, but it’s pretty clear. If you have discerned what you understand to be the truth and go against it, then you go against your conscience, and that is the ultimate act of self condemnation.

 

[onaquest]

I would say invincible ignorance applys to this post. There is not a Catholic in the whole of Chistendom that would condemn you for a grace not given to you as of yet. Keep praying , keep searching God is merciful and will release you.

 

[Syele]

Why would you ask people on an Internet forum for answers to such important questions?

Sheesh why not ask them? this isn’t the local World of Warcraft gaming forums, Its Catholic Answers. One thinks, Hey if I ask questions, some Catholics might answer! Asking a question doesn’t mean we think that you Catholic members of this forum are definitely to highest authority on anything, but most of the time a consensus can be reached with some back up documentation. But this question Mozart has asked, you haven’t managed that. It begs us to ask WHY? this isn’t some unimportant matter like weather imitation cheese is an abomination to the Lord or not (I maintain it is), this is a serious topic and should be instrumental in gaining converts. Instead everyone seems to be bumbling around it, Very weird from people who claim to have the fullness of Truth and a Magesterium who can give all the answers for you.

I’m not sure why you ask “what do y’all think about us?” Basically, the Catholic position is to articulate the Catholic position; while individuals might have “thoughts” they don’t amount to much. Like a Secret Service agent, we learn to detect the genuine $20 bill so we can spot a counterfeit without even breaking a sweat.

But you ARE breaking a sweat on this question! I have seen so many threads lately with people asking it in all different ways and we cant get a straight answer.

I’m basically thinkin’ about y’all: Gosh. That Mozart-250 is a really good guy. Good heart. Strong faith in Christ. I hope we’ll be receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord side by side before too long. :tiphat:

So Diplomatic of you to answer this way, but it doesn’t actually answer anything.

 

[mozart-250]

The only infallible statements made by the Church are those made from the chair.

I haven’t seen the quotes you’re talking about.

There seem to be a lot of mean-spirited Catholics on this board. They’re arrogant and self-righteous. They’re downright unChristian, if you ask me.

See post #19 (thank you notself)

Don’t take your Catechism lessons from them. They aren’t interested in teaching you about Catholicism. They’re interested only is showing you that Catholicism is superior to your religion, and mostly that they, by being smart enough to be Catholic, are head and shoulders above you.

Some of them may be able to quote this or that–helped, no doubt, by quick Internet searches–to suppor their views. But I have no doubt that if you ask them to expound on these statements, they would have to run back to the Internet to get more info.

Though they’re good a quick searches and have all the apologetics sites bookmarked, they have a lot to learn about Christianity.

I’m all for a good debate. But what I’ve seen here lately is not debate.

It’s a wonder any non-Catholics post here.

If nothing else, this forum is a good example to show others that Catholicism is everything the critics say it is. It’s a real shame, because it really isn’t. A few bad apples.

I somehow suspect you lean towards the “You are already Catholic but just don’t know it yet” position that the Catechism seems to teach.

If I were Catholic, I would be that way too. That is the way the Catechism reads to me also.

But that really seems to me to contradict what Pope Eugene IV (and the other popes in post 19) say.

That’s all right with me. Sheesh I have seen many times churches get into stuff they shouldn’t and then correct themselves. I certainly would grant your faith the same slack in correcting itself as I cut our faiths.

But wait, this is impossible isn’t it.

 

[buffgbob]

Ratzinger had an interesting dialogue about this subject. He says that those who are born into other faiths do not have the same nature as those who initially rebelled. Practically, when I speak to Protestant friends of mine, they are largely ignorant of the Church.

Augustine
*“The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics” (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]). *

The teaching of the Church is consistant. The only excuse for not being Catholic is invincible ignorance. To reject Christ’s bride for any other reason is mortal sin.

 

[MDK]

Catholics believe something called “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic church”. Now I could ask where in the Bible they get that from, but of course that is an invalid question because Catholics don’t believe in “Sola Scriptura” and they do not operate under the limitations that Protestants do of making sure that the Bible actually teaches something before they believe it.

Please be careful with a statement like, “Catholics don’t believe in “Sola Scriptura” and they do not operate under the limitations that Protestants do of making sure that the Bible actually teaches something before they believe it.”

Through the Holy Spirit inspired Catholics and Catholic Church, the Sacred Scriptures were brought to the world. There’s nothing in Catholicism that conflicts with anything in the Scriptures. There’s nothing in Scriptures that conflict with anything in the Catholic Church. Actually, Protestants have often distorted the proper interpretation of Scripture. Calling what they believe Bible-based is a little misleading. What they actually believe is often not the inerrant Word of God, but their own errant interpretation of the Word of God.

The Catholic Church is the pillar and ground of truth, which includes protecting and teaching truth about the Sacred Scriptures as it relates to faith and morals.

 

[mercygate]

Sheesh why not ask them? this isn’t the local World of Warcraft gaming forums, Its Catholic Answers. One thinks, Hey if I ask questions, some Catholics might answer! Asking a question doesn’t mean we think that you Catholic members of this forum are definitely to highest authority on anything, but most of the time a consensus can be reached with some back up documentation. But this question Mozart has asked, you haven’t managed that. It begs us to ask WHY? this isn’t some unimportant matter like weather imitation cheese is an abomination to the Lord or not (I maintain it is), this is a serious topic and should be instrumental in gaining converts. Instead everyone seems to be bumbling around it, Very weird from people who claim to have the fullness of Truth and a Magesterium who can give all the answers for you.
But you ARE breaking a sweat on this question! I have seen so many threads lately with people asking it in all different ways and we cant get a straight answer.

So Diplomatic of you to answer this way, but it doesn’t actually answer anything.

I perceive mozart-250 as being somewhat past the “answer me this!” stage of his quest. He already has a lot of answers.

Wherever you may stand on this, Syele, I sense (perhaps wrongly) that mozart is in a more “existential” place [to draft a word into service], where he needs to come to terms with the answers he already has.

I remember so well my own prayer: “Lord, there are a million “reasons” not to be Catholic. But if the Catholic Church really IS your Church, then I need to be IN it and not OUT of it. Do whatever it takes to make that happen.”

 

[MDK]

The only infallible statements made by the Church are those made from the chair.

I haven’t seen the quotes you’re talking about.

There seem to be a lot of mean-spirited Catholics on this board. They’re arrogant and self-righteous. They’re downright unChristian, if you ask me.

Don’t take your Catechism lessons from them. They aren’t interested in teaching you about Catholicism. They’re interested only is showing you that Catholicism is superior to your religion, and mostly that they, by being smart enough to be Catholic, are head and shoulders above you.

Some of them may be able to quote this or that–helped, no doubt, by quick Internet searches–to suppor their views. But I have no doubt that if you ask them to expound on these statements, they would have to run back to the Internet to get more info.

Though they’re good a quick searches and have all the apologetics sites bookmarked, they have a lot to learn about Christianity.

I’m all for a good debate. But what I’ve seen here lately is not debate.

It’s a wonder any non-Catholics post here.

If nothing else, this forum is a good example to show others that Catholicism is everything the critics say it is. It’s a real shame, because it really isn’t. A few bad apples.

Catholicism is true Christianity.

You’ve only discussed Papal infallibility, but what about the councils, and Magisterium?

What is your definition of mean spirited? Is it defending the truth of the Church in the face of propaganda and lies about the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. Was Christ mean-spirited when He turned over the money-changers’ tables in the temple? Is there such a thing as righteous indignation?

I would agree that some get their idea of Catholicism by observing Catholics. I think this is a mistake. Catholics are not perfect, and certainly need the mercy and forgiveness of Christ…, and some who complain about the behavior of individual Catholics are correct… So, what’s new? If one were to follow Catholicism perfectly, one would be a shining example of God’s grace and what He can do with one who says “yes” to God constantly. This is pretty much why we honor Mary, as she lived with a continual “yes” to the Lord.

To say that Catholicism is everything the critics say it is is patently false. Critics claim that Catholicism is false. In fact, the Catholic Church is the only Church that Jesus built. There is nothing wrong with Catholic Doctrine or Dogma. What’s wrong is that people don’t follow it well, or worse yet, reject it altogether.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Mozart I like your terms, especially “Bake in the Lake” and Vatican 2.0 (like Vatican 2.1) is coming. You are obviously a gifted person and have more understanding than most.

I came out of the Southern Baptist Church and came into the Catholic Church Easter Vigil 2006. I went from the second largest “denomination” to the “largest”. However, as I have come to learn, there is very little similarity after size.

Catholitism is rich and full of liturgy, has sacraments, a valid priesthood tracable back to Peter, a Blessed Virgin Mother, communion of the saints, a baptism that washes away sin, forgiveness of sin through confession and most importantly, everytime I go to mass, I actually get to share in literal body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The SBC has a baptism that is just a symbol, a Lord’s Supper that is just a symbol, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS and Jack Chick type comic book theology. You can be a minister with a little laying on of hands. Give a few bucks to the church and you can be a deacon. They do have good food after the service though.

Hey, that’s ok, I’m sure they can get saved, with God all things are possible. Kinda like konservatives if you know what I mean.

 

[mozart-250]

Why would you ask people on an Internet forum for answers to such important questions?

Well if the pope were here I suppose I could ask him directly. But unless he is lurking somewhere, that is not an option.

I could go to St. Anthony’s up the road and ask a priest I suppose. But that would just be that priest’s opinion. Whose to say that if I go to Holy Angels in the city I would get the same answer.

Now I suppose the best option would be to just read the source documentation. But here is where I am stuck.

The Catechism seems to say that I am already Catholic but just don’t know it yet (by virtue of my baptism). But then there are these annoying quotes by these dead popes.

Now scholarship in any other discipline would be that the most recent sources would supercede the older sources. So woohoo, if I use normal scholastic methods, I am already Catholic and just don’t know it yet.

But I’m not sure Catholicism works that way. From my understanding that in Catholicism you start with what is incapable of being incorrect and work backwards from that. So maybe you do have to start with these really annoying quotes by dead popes. If I do that (since I am certainly not invincibly ignorant), I must certainly go directly to hell.

What I am totally unable to do is to read the Catechism and then read these quotes by dead popes and then come out with anything that begins to make any amount of sense. But since they it all has to make sense, my only logical conclusion is that I must be severely reading comprehension challenged.

 

[buffgbob]

Let us also turn to what Christ said:

John 9:40-41
And some of the Pharisees, who were with him, heard: and they said unto him: Are we also blind? Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth.

So hopefully you don’t know Catholic doctrine. For if you did know it and rejected it, “Your sin remaineth.”

 

[mozart-250]

So hopefully you don’t know Catholic doctrine. For if you did know it and rejected it, “Your sin remaineth.”

Oh but I think I do. Maybe not in all its fine detail. But I would like to think I could at least get a ‘B’ on a hypothetical Catholicism 101 course.

I have not bought into it because there are just too many things in it that just do not add up and make sense. This is one of them. In that matter I guess it is preferable to stay with the inconsistencies you already know and are familiar with than to deal with a totally new set of inconsistencies.