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MDK
Guest
Forum Rules:
Conduct Rules:
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7. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
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MDK
Guest
Those who propose or promote very questionable or unCatholic ideas that at the very least make it more difficult for one learning Catholicism to stay true, and not be led astray… Ideas that only marginally, or that do not really support doctrine or dogma, can undermine one’s faith if one is not aware and somehow aware or protected. It doesn’t have to be a majority of the people, it’s just not guaranteed to be some safe haven of orthodox Catholicism.
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jmcrae
Guest
Why not? The only reason the early heretics got big enough to have their teachings ruled on by the Church was that a lot of people, including Bishops and priests, thought they had the right answers.
Arius, for example, was a very convincing and very charismatic guy, from what I understand - that’s why he was considered dangerous. If he’d had a pitchfork and horns, or no manners, or no ability to articulate himself convincingly (that is, to in some sense image Jesus to his hearers), he’d have never been any threat to the Church. They came down on him like a ton of bricks precisely because he was leading the people, including much of the leadership (most notably, the Eastern side of the Church) astray.
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notself
Guest
Is it possible that these sharks are questioning or challenging dogma in order to have the students defend their faith? Is it dangerous to challenge and question in an academic forum? I would think that by the time one entered college, one would have the ability to research, argue, and defend against an argument.
College should never be a safe haven for orthodoxy. It should prepare one for the challenges and arguments of the world. If one “loses faith” in the college environment, one probably would have lost it later in a non-academic setting or one’s faith is not of an informed mind but rather of habit and culture.
Just some thoughts.
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Roy5
Guest
CATHOLICS SEEM DIVIDED
Code:
Yes, I know the Church is said to be united, but I find that far from reality. I read US Catholic, Commonweal, America, Our Sunday Visitor and other magazines and find a wide variety of viewpoints.
But even more so, in discussing faith with Catholics I rarely find a traditionalist. Nearly everybody is a 'heretic' to a lesser or greater degree. Many believe in artifical birth control. Many believe in married clergy. Many doubt or reject outright such doctrines as transubstantiation. There are lots of Catholics who sound like mainline Protestants, most of whom have a 'big tent' approach to religion. "You don't believe what I believe? That's okay. Come join us as we can chat about such things." More evangelical Protestants, of course, are apt to be dogmatists.
Sometimes I think we should think of Christians as either (1) traditionalists or (2) big tent. The traditionalists insist that they are on the one true path. The big tent Christians have various viewpoints and have no problem if the worshipers in the pew alongside of them have a different approach to matters of dogma and practice. They value freedom of opinion over yielding to the authority of Pope, a church or a book.
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lynnareyno
Guest
Mozart-250
A few years ago I too was wondering which church or denomination was the “right” one. I agree with you that it is not immediately obvious…emphasis on immediately obvious.
However, I asked God to guide me and my search. With research and prayer, God made it obvious through faith and reason that the Catholic Church is the one. ( where I already was)
Many other posters have stated the scriptual and historical references. Now all you have to do is ask God to help you in your quest. God can do all things and He certainly can and will lead you to Him if you truly ask Him in all sincerity and follow His directives. It all becomes very obvious then…He is not a god of confusion ( that would be Satan)…God the Father made it very clear in scripture that we come to Him through His son Jesus Christ who established His Church upon Peter the Rock.
Satan is the great deceiver and author of confusion…go to God in prayer(not the world of men) and He will lead you.
God Bless you on your journey Home!
A few years ago I too was wondering which church or denomination was the “right” one. I agree with you that it is not immediately obvious…emphasis on immediately obvious.
However, I asked God to guide me and my search. With research and prayer, God made it obvious through faith and reason that the Catholic Church is the one. ( where I already was)
Many other posters have stated the scriptual and historical references. Now all you have to do is ask God to help you in your quest. God can do all things and He certainly can and will lead you to Him if you truly ask Him in all sincerity and follow His directives. It all becomes very obvious then…He is not a god of confusion ( that would be Satan)…God the Father made it very clear in scripture that we come to Him through His son Jesus Christ who established His Church upon Peter the Rock.
Satan is the great deceiver and author of confusion…go to God in prayer(not the world of men) and He will lead you.
God Bless you on your journey Home!
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Stephen_C
Guest
But the Church is not…go figure.
I can go to Mass anywhere on earth and here the same Gospel readings all my Catholic brothers and sisters are hearing for that day. Plus…(this is the kicker) I can recieve Jesus.
If all us folks were united, I guess we would not have non-Catholic Christians would we…
Ok back to the topic…sorry
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Stephen_C
Guest
I really think you should explain this…maybe in another thread…I am so tired of your hit and run potshot style…
Again sorry for going off topic…
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mercygate
Guest
I agree with you for the most part but today, Catholics barely know what orthodoxy is, much less have a sense of where the line of error is that will, if played out, sink the boat.
Being challenged is good. But I know for a fact that many of these guys have bought the dissent and are selling it to their students (Jesus didn’t perform miracles; the Virgin Birth is a myth, etc.).
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mercygate
Guest
The great thing about the Catholic Church is not that “Catholics are all united” but that we actually have an indentifiable teaching – teaching that has been argued and tested against all manner of challenges, teaching that ALWAYS has been responsibly promulgated and ALWAYS holds up against whatever dissent may be swirling around among its individual members.
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notself
Guest
I see your point. I think in the West, many believe that if it can’t be tested, it can’t exist. They never stop to think that it can only be tested if you have the tools. In this approach everything spiritual is a metaphor. These people study the brain, but not the mind.
In reaction to this purely intellectual approach to life, there is the New Age cloud of cotton candy spirituality. This approach picks parts of every religion and mushes them together to form a vague, feel good philosophy that appeals to emotion only and eliminates any intellectual effort. Eckhart Tolle, Gangaji and others of the same stripe.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangaji
Both groups, rely on the fact that the individual won’t do the research and put in the effort to determine what was actually taught by the greatest relious and spiritual minds of our history. They just rely on what ever someone distills into sound bites. This is happening in all of the major religions and it is a shame. Perhaps it has always been this way.
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MDK
Guest
Yes, some thoughts… Part of what you posted was to simply expanding on what I said, rather than go contrast, although I’m not confident that you were immediately aware of this. Part was misunderstood. I think you’re able to understand this.
To summarize and clarify, never a problem to probe and learn… this is obvious and obviously not what I was discussing. If one promotes (as I stated before, promotes… not just throws up to academically challenge the group) something outside of communion with the Pope at a Catholic College, is this a good thing? If promoting orthodoxy is looked down upon… is that a good thing?
Safe haven for orthodoxy doesn’t mean that other views can’t be discussed and contrasted… and there can’t be vigorous discussion. Once again, not what I was talking about, as there should be vigorous discussion. What is being held in high esteem there (in a Catholic College), is it ideas and Theology that would be considered supporting Catholic doctrine and dogma, in communion with the Pope, or an idea that we don’t really need to be on board as Catholics? One may need to go against the tide in order to remain orthodox, and it’s not simply an academic challenge. Is that a good thing?
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RobHom
Guest
Yes and no… Much of what you see is a product of the 60’s and early 70’s shift away from the “establishment” and the “if it feels good, do it” movement. There are far more traditionalists around than you think. I am one of them. I see no need or reason for change in the area of the Church’s teachings on faith and morals. Not that I wear a halo…
I myself had wondered about why or why not we can’t have married priests…but I know why we don’t and I accept the Church’s edict on that issue. Birth control…many have made that a personal decision, despite the edict of the Church and God’s Word. They are expressing their personal feelings…and justifying their actions by rationalizing…as if their “feelings and thoughts” are superior to God and the Church.
Yes, there are “confused Catholics”…just as there are “confused OTCC’s/non-Catholics”… In the case of “confused Catholics” they may not have come from a family with parents who neglected their duties…and as a result the children were not properly “Catechized” in the faith. Or they are just rebellious in nature, not understanding that it is not what occurs in this human life that really matters…but what happens after we die that counts.
Catholics that say “Thats okay”…Yes even I can be one of them. That is simply because there is nothing in our teaching or faith that drives us to be anti-social, obnoxious, holier-than-thou, or in-your-face-challenging…angry Bible-thumping judges of others. Its just not there. Did not Christ tell us to turn the other cheek? That’s much of what its about. Also, Catholics can be curious…wanting to understand others without being critical… I myself studied Eastern Religions in College… it was a Humanities Course… I learned but I didn’t convert to being a Hindu or Buddhist. The difference between many or most of us who are “Traditional Catholics”…and by that I mean aligned with the Church…and others is that we realize that it is God’s way that counts…not man’s, and all the rationalizing and excuse making is useless.
Frankly… I don’t see most “evangelical Protestants” as being more “dogmatic”… I see them as being very poor representatives of Christianity…and extremely heretical in nature. The picking and use of “snippets” of Scripture to justify or deny as per their agenda is devious and ill thought out. (If you find that statement offensive, I apologize, however…it is as kind of a response as I can make to your statement/question.)
Also…the fact that we Catholics don’t get riled up and foam at the mouth with someone who doesn’t accept our beliefs…is simply because we don’t need your approval, nor do we believe that you need ours on a personal level. You have free will, just as we do. If you want to “worship” a toad, a stump, a rock, or an Edsel… hey…thats YOUR decision. If you want my opinion…ask for it, and I will express it. But if you don’t like the answer, that;s ok too. Your opinion of my opinion…again, that’s OK too, since mine is not going to change. It is not an ego thing… it all boils down to what Christ said: JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED!! and LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.
I can well imagine some saying…well that’s not how Catholics on this site act…and to some extent you’re right…but your premise for that thought is erroneous. On this or any other forum site, we Catholics can be very tolerant and nice about things…but at the same time we possess the right to defend our faith and beliefs. And some of us also believe that the “best defense is a strong offense” while keeping in line with forum rules.
I fear that its thoughts like yours in the last paragraph that poison the well. Traditionalists (Catholics) believe that they are not superior to the authorities vested with power to teach and guide by Christ Himself. The rest merely seek to justify their actions because they “think it so”…and because they haven’t been hit by lightning…its OK. Its not “freedom” they value…its the ability to “get away with something” and pay no visible price. They fail to remember that…the final price is to be paid later, and that the ultimate outcome is “Eternal”.
Peace!
D
Deconi
Guest
Amen, Rob.Yes and no… Much of what you see is a product of the 60’s and early 70’s shift away from the “establishment” and the “if it feels good, do it” movement. There are far more traditionalists around than you think. I am one of them. I see no need or reason for change in the area of the Church’s teachings on faith and morals. Not that I wear a halo…
I myself had wondered about why or why not we can’t have married priests…but I know why we don’t and I accept the Church’s edict on that issue. Birth control…many have made that a personal decision, despite the edict of the Church and God’s Word. They are expressing their personal feelings…and justifying their actions by rationalizing…as if their “feelings and thoughts” are superior to God and the Church.
Yes, there are “confused Catholics”…just as there are “confused OTCC’s/non-Catholics”… In the case of “confused Catholics” they may not have come from a family with parents who neglected their duties…and as a result the children were not properly “Catechized” in the faith. Or they are just rebellious in nature, not understanding that it is not what occurs in this human life that really matters…but what happens after we die that counts.
Catholics that say “Thats okay”…Yes even I can be one of them. That is simply because there is nothing in our teaching or faith that drives us to be anti-social, obnoxious, holier-than-thou, or in-your-face-challenging…angry Bible-thumping judges of others. Its just not there. Did not Christ tell us to turn the other cheek? That’s much of what its about. Also, Catholics can be curious…wanting to understand others without being critical… I myself studied Eastern Religions in College… it was a Humanities Course… I learned but I didn’t convert to being a Hindu or Buddhist. The difference between many or most of us who are “Traditional Catholics”…and by that I mean aligned with the Church…and others is that we realize that it is God’s way that counts…not man’s, and all the rationalizing and excuse making is useless.
Frankly… I don’t see most “evangelical Protestants” as being more “dogmatic”… I see them as being very poor representatives of Christianity…and extremely heretical in nature. The picking and use of “snippets” of Scripture to justify or deny as per their agenda is devious and ill thought out. (If you find that statement offensive, I apologize, however…it is as kind of a response as I can make to your statement/question.)
Also…the fact that we Catholics don’t get riled up and foam at the mouth with someone who doesn’t accept our beliefs…is simply because we don’t need your approval, nor do we believe that you need ours on a personal level. You have free will, just as we do. If you want to “worship” a toad, a stump, a rock, or an Edsel… hey…thats YOUR decision. If you want my opinion…ask for it, and I will express it. But if you don’t like the answer, that;s ok too. Your opinion of my opinion…again, that’s OK too, since mine is not going to change. It is not an ego thing… it all boils down to what Christ said: JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED!! and LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.
I can well imagine some saying…well that’s not how Catholics on this site act…and to some extent you’re right…but your premise for that thought is erroneous. On this or any other forum site, we Catholics can be very tolerant and nice about things…but at the same time we possess the right to defend our faith and beliefs. And some of us also believe that the “best defense is a strong offense” while keeping in line with forum rules.
I fear that its thoughts like yours in the last paragraph that poison the well. Traditionalists (Catholics) believe that they are not superior to the authorities vested with power to teach and guide by Christ Himself. The rest merely seek to justify their actions because they “think it so”…and because they haven’t been hit by lightning…its OK. Its not “freedom” they value…its the ability to “get away with something” and pay no visible price. They fail to remember that…the final price is to be paid later, and that the ultimate outcome is “Eternal”.
Peace!
R
RobHom
Guest
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justasking4
Guest
Has the church ever done evil?
J
justasking4
Guest
This is what i was responding to:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75
A true Christian would say that Church and Christ are not separated. However, I have heard from Evangelical Christians (not Lutherans) that you don’t need the Church and all you need is Jesus. How do you explain that?
If such a thing is true then there are some very serious theological problems with it in light of the history of the church. This would mean that all that the church does is exactly what Christ does. Including evil.
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RobHom
Guest
The quickest and simple answer is NO. But before you have a kneejerk reaction to that…read on. Catholics will freely admit that there have been some rather “colorful and not so honest persons” who abused their power and position…and some have even committed crimes. But those are persons…humans. Not the “Church”.
To illustrate my point: Jim Bakker was a thief, liar, adulterer and embezzler…who went to prison for his crimes. Now, did the Assemblies of God commit the crimes or did Jim Bakker.
To further illustrate my point: Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a prostitute in a motel…at the time when he was the “leading television evangelist”… Now did the Assemblies of God commit this crime or did Jimmy Swaggart.
I could go on and on… but I won’t. Attempting to hang wrongdoing on a “Church” either by inference or false claim is just wrong.
Its also a bad door to open.
By the way, I have no particular issues with the Assemblies of God… I have friends who are, and they are good people. So if anyone took offense or thought I was aiming at them…I was not. Bakker and Swaggart’s names just happened to come to mind.
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