They are wandering in a “theological miasma” of their own design. Its called “BK theology”…as in “Burger King, have it your way”.
As it is not true, it is not an issue. See my prior post for examples… Evil deeds are those of men, not Christ.
Well Scripture tells me to examine everything carefully, hold fast to that which is good.
What about other things done centuries ago that are far more problematic? This is why saying the church and Christ are not separate leads to some very bad theology.
Sadly it is true. Much evil has been done in the name of Christ by those who were officals of the church.
If you are referring to things done in Medieval times… I will only suggest that you study “secular histories” of those things, and consider actually what was done. There is no “bad theology”, at least not where the Church and Christ are concerned.
Lets really be fair about this… It, the evils, perpetrated by mankind in the name of God, is not limited to any one specific religion, denomination, creed or nationality. Its a human issue.
Arrogant to say it hasn’t passed the test, when it was built by Christ.
I hereby resign.
Good luck, and hope you come around. I think you’re actually a nice guy. I know you won’t now, but hope you will look back on my words someday and thank me, and others who did share the truth with you. We share the truth, no matter what denigrations, doubts, misperceptions, and/or reluctance to give the truth a chance that others bring to the table.
And those who did so who were members of the Catholic Church knew they were acting contrary to the teachings of the Church, at the time. They were most emphatically not acting as agents of Christ, when they committed those sins. The Church is not to blame, for what they did.
Very good. I will say though, that I’ve seen many Catholics on this board who do understand Catholicism, but will work first with basics on the foundational things, typically with those outside the Church who deny or doubt, in preparation for possibly larger things each may want to discuss. Many times, what causes disconnects between those attempting to discuss the weightier issues, is that they have different criteria and the foundation for understanding them is not established. Get some common ground first, or at least understanding. Often, if one can establish a good foundation, then the person is off and running, and the question of councils, Magisterium, Papal Infallibility, Sacraments, no women in the priesthood, etc come easier. Also, misconceptions and false beliefs, like sola scripture and/or sola fide, can get in the way of further discussion of larger issues. The Catholic cannot accept these falsehoods, but needs to promote understanding or somehow neutralize the effect of this in the conversation, in order to get to the truth in the full picture. Some of the fruits of the Catholic Church are not easily understood, especially for one who does not have foundation. One sees an orange, and knows it’s an orange tree. On the other hand, one sees Lumen Gentium, Dei Verbum, or some other document or teaching from Vatican II, and without understanding the basic nature and delegated authority in the Church, how can one really understand this work? If one were to read the The International Theological Commission’s work “Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized,” one may not get a good picture, and can be turned off by this instead of enlightened. One may ask, where does the Church get it’s authority, why does it say what it says, are they usurping Christ’s role? Instead of realizing these men are fulfilling their apostolic duty and authority given by Christ, one may instead conclude that they are usurping Christ’s role. Without laying some kind of foundation or some amount of common understanding, people are often just shouting across a chasm.Mozart, what you’re looking for is evidence. Your ruler for the authenticity of that evidence is The Bible.
You are already Christian, so you have confined your search to Christianity. That being the case, you can whittle ALL the Protestant denominations that commenced from Luther away, since he only arrived at his theology in the 16th Century, and proved to be heretical by ‘the judges’ that stuck to the continuing lineage!
That leaves Catholicism. Since the Catholic Church canonized Scriptures, your ruler may be a little biased
Anyway, The Church canonized Scriptures so The Word can be made available and ‘carried’ to the four corners of the globe. Now, ‘you’ and others, use The Book, to judge Its Carrier! Fallible men have no way of knowing what was to come with The Word being so available to …uhm…other fallible men. Yet, somehow, they decreed and dogmatized doctrines which have now proved sooo applicable in our day of contrary and contesting viewpoints, that its almost UNCANNY! Guided by The Holy Spirit? You betcha!
“There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” remains true to forever! Every soul that has ever heard of Christ, did so because of The Catholic Church. You, included! The Church has completed that part of Her deposit! What you believe ABOUT Christ, from your vantage, is part of your “working” out your salvation! We all have to.
Invincible Ignorance still applies to you because it also applies to us, Catholics! Just because one becomes Catholic doesn’t mean ‘you’ get plugged into a “Matrix chair” and have everything The Church ‘knows’ downloaded into ya head! We also do not get automatic salvation, just by BEING Catholic. That’s why we attend Mass regularly!
Predominantly, Invincible Ignorance has been taken to mean applicable to non-Christians, and those who, for whatever reason, have not heard of Christ! (A lost tribe; mentally ill; babies; insulated existence etc) But many Catholic DO NOT KNOW many things about Catholicism. But they know it is The True Church because it is the only one that can be proved was esrablished by Christ; by Scriptures and Her Tradition.
If you’re trying to connect all the dots to see if Catholicism is the one that WILL SAVE YOU, you will fail! The evidence will lead you to Catholicism, but ‘something’ else will come up and more evidence is required…and then you will wait for something else…and so on!
**Only, through The Grace of God, can you have the faith, that ULTIMATELY sets you ‘free.’ **
An ‘instrument’ has no will of its own!! That is THE GOAL of ALL Catholics! (Not my will, Father, But YOURS, be done) That is what we strive for!
I didn’t look upon your proposal as minimal. I agree that he probably doesn’t know how limited and errant is his idea of Catholicism.Thank you for ‘enlarging’ on my miniscule proposal, MDK. I was attempting to stay within the boundaries of Mozart’s vantage. Unfortunately, he does not realise how limited his understanding of Catholicism is.
Because he has learned much here on this forum, he may have thought he possessed sufficient understanding to critique The Church and Her profession.
Myself included, there are many Catholics who are ignorant of the details of Catholic life. But the security is in the knowledge that Catholicism is ‘where Truth Lives!’ If I live to be a hundred, as a cradle Catholic, I still will not know everything about The Church.
The BEAUTY of it is, I DON’T HAVE TO! (Part of the reason Catholics are often accused of being mindless drones)
**Her “NO” is my ‘No’; Her “YES” is my ‘Yes.’ **
No. The Church is incorruptible because Christ purified her, and keeps her pure by the power of HIs might.
It is only a problem for a person with a flawed understanding of what the Church is. The Church is the Body of Christ, and Jesus is her Head, and her soul is the HS. It is these divine elements that prevent error. She also includes the saints who have go on to their heavenly reward, they are perfected, and also incapable of error.
Yes, this is true, and it is very sad. But to lay these sins at the feet of Christ is wrong. Human beings are responsible for their own misbehavior, not God.
Are you saying the various evil deeds that the Catholic church has done in the name of Christ was not evil?
Since all men are fallen including Catholics, have they not also done evil at times?
That’s why i’m so grateful for you. I thought the matters we were discussing were elementary.
Do you believe then that those who are of the Body of Christ have never erred? Have any of your pastors ever erred? Have you?
Members of the Catholic Church can err and sin, including pastors. The Church itself (its teachings, its morals, its essence) cannot. The Church is that which we join to, when we make a Profession of Faith or receive the Sacraments. It’s not a group of people - it’s an idea. It’s a perfect idea.
Evil is done by men. The Church does not promote or condone evil.
I think it goes without saying that Catholics are well aware of some of our more “colorful” people and chapters in history, and we readily admit that some were wrong.
Men will err, as to err is human. Perfection belongs only to God.
You haven’t the time in your life to hear all I could tell you… Yes, I am a sinner. I have sinned many times and greatly. I have no halo… I will readily admit…that I, of all people, rely on the goodness and mercy of God for my forgiveness and Salvation.The inqusititions that went on for centuries with the approval of the highest authority in the church is one example.
Some were popes. Vicars of Christ.
Have I?