I still just don't get it

[MDK]

Here is what is but one example of what i’m referring to. On May 15, 1252 Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull entitled Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors. Torture methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death were forbidden. Also, torture could be performed only once. However, it was common practice to consider a second torture session to be a “continuation” of the first. People were also tortured by getting hung by their wrists, and have weights hung by their ankles.

I do not retract what history shows.

Neither do you portray correctly what history shows. Once again you distort history. Pope Innocent IV did not “authorize” the use of torture as though initiating it… Look more carefully, and see what it was that he did, whether it was for the church or the state, and whether any “church officials tortured individuals” as you have claimed on this thread. When one compares truth to what you write, there are discrepancies… not small discrepancies. You falsely portray these men as bloodthirsty, when it was far from the truth.

Please answer my question directly about what you specifically and literally said on this thread. Do you retract the statement “referring to the whole enterprise in which church officials tortured individuals” acknowledging it was false? In addition, you’re using smear-merchant techniques by using a non-specific unbounded accusations. No record exists of Church officials torturing individuals.

Also before you move on, what is your aim to prove by your accusations regarding the inquisition?

Do you understand or have any regard for God’s commandment against bearing false witness?

 

[notsmart]

Hello Mozart250,

I am hoping you are doing well. I have been thinking about you since you left me that wonderful peaceful loving message. It was so encouraging, and so kind. Praying for you. I understand what you were saying. I’m still up in the air about a couple things, but I know that what you said (that I’ll be fine) is going to keep me going.

Take care, and come back whenever you want to if you decide to.

Love,

Monica

 

[MDK]

How can i when historical facts are on my side?

What is your side? In other words, what is your aim by bringing up your interpretation of history of the Inquisition?

Historical facts are just that, facts. They are not up for revision, nor should they be interpreted out of context and claimed to be something they are not. Let me clearly state the historical facts are not on your side, as I’ve seen no indication that you will simply let facts be facts, and seek to interpret fairly, justly, in proper context.

This comes down to character and honesty, but really needs to be taken to another board, as it is now off topic.

 

[distracted]

Here is what is but one example of what i’m referring to. On May 15, 1252 Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull entitled Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors. Torture methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death were forbidden. Also, torture could be performed only once. However, it was common practice to consider a second torture session to be a “continuation” of the first. People were also tortured by getting hung by their wrists, and have weights hung by their ankles.

I do not retract what history shows.

have you ever read… I think it is Ezekial 9 (I’ll look it up)… but God ordered eveyr0one massacred… except those who had the “Thau” on their foreheads (his people)… He ordered men, women and children to be killed… It was in the daily reading for… i think… just a few days ago…

the Catholic Church’s Inquisition was a walk in the park compared to that…

 

[MDK]

MDK;4054122:

For perspective, are you aware of Mosaic inquisition in the Old Testament, or deny the existence of such?

I’m not aware of this.

Please see Deuteronomy 17:2-5. “When there shall be found among you within any of thy gates, which the Lord thy God shall give thee, man or woman that do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, and transgress his covenant, 3 So as to go and serve strange gods, and adore them, the sun and the moon. and all the host of heaven, which I have not commanded: 4 And this is told thee, and hearing it thou hast inquired diligently, and found it to be true, and that the abomination is committed in Israel: 5 Thou shalt bring forth the man or the woman, who have committed that most wicked thing, to the gates of thy city, and they shall be stoned.”

Here the inspired author of God’s word specifically requires them to inquire diligently, and having found it to be true, the guilty is stoned to death.

There is more in Deuteronomy, and much more discussion available, but hopefully the idea is conveyed sufficiently for a basic understanding of Biblical roots for an Inquisition. We have the requirement to inquire diligently, a requirement to find it as true, and then requirement to stone the guilty to death. How do we determine truth…, perhaps a court.

In any event, please get off your high horse and stop judging people unfairly and unjustly. Perspective, fairness and decency please!

 

[peary1]

CATHOLICS SEEM DIVIDED

Yes, I know the Church is said to be united, but I find that far from reality. I read US Catholic, Commonweal, America, Our Sunday Visitor and other magazines and find a wide variety of viewpoints.

 But even more so, in discussing faith with Catholics I rarely find a traditionalist. Nearly everybody is a 'heretic' to a lesser or greater degree. Many believe in artifical birth control. Many believe in married clergy. Many doubt or reject outright such doctrines as transubstantiation. There are lots of Catholics who sound like mainline Protestants, most of whom have a 'big tent' approach to religion. "You don't believe what I believe? That's okay. Come join us as we can chat about such things." More evangelical Protestants, of course, are apt to be dogmatists.

  Sometimes I think we should think of Christians as either (1) traditionalists or (2) big tent. The traditionalists insist that they are on the one true path. The big tent Christians have various viewpoints and have no problem if the worshipers in the pew alongside of them have a different approach to matters of dogma and practice. They value freedom of opinion over yielding to the authority of Pope, a church or a book.

**Yes, that is true. The Church is divided among its faithful as to what to believe. But a former poster, I think, nailed the problem on the head - today it seems that lifestyle is the criterion for accepting or rejecting key beliefs. If a teaching is not important or does not “fit in” with the person’s lifestyle, it is rejected. This makes not only for error, it can lead one into sin and, it also makes for “bad Faith.” **

 

[MDK]

The inqusititions that went on for centuries with the approval of the highest authority in the church is one example.

If you want further discussion on the Inquisition, please go to an appropriate thread.

 

[RobHom]

This is an extraordinarily inflammatory post. Please back it up by identifying one or more Protestant leaders who advocate “genocide on Catholics” (or any other group for that matter).

Ian Paisley of Northern Ireland for one, and Bob Jones of Greenville, SC very proudly sides with Paisley. In fact Jones gave him an honorary degree and spews the same bigoted drivel.

geocities.com/athens/atrium/1678/ian.html Perhaps you would like to spend a few moments reading about the “less than illustrious” Paisley?

zimbio.com/Ian+Paisley/articles/3/Give+me+Gerry+and+Martin

Nothing at all inflammatory…just the truth as it really is.

 

[guanophore]

I’m referring to the whole enterprise in which church officals tortured individuals

You are inventing something in your mind that does not, in reality, exist. The Catholic Church is not now, nor has ever been a “whole enterprise” organized around “church officials torturing individuals”.

Yes, there have been corrupt church officials that have committed terrible sins. I think the above posting analogy on a corrupt police officer, and the police department is a good one. You are laying something at the feet of Jesus that does not belong there. He is not responsible for the sins of the corrupt. They are. Jesus is head of the Church, that is why she is infallible.

What do you mean that the church “an idea - not a person - and not a group of people”?

Personally, I don’t like this rendering either. The Church is the Body of Christ, and has mystical, eternal, and divine elements. She also has attached to her men who are corrupt, and who profane the blood that was shed to save them.

Since the Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit, it is impossible for the Church to be corrupt.

 

[distracted]

Just Asking seems to Just be selectively answering posters’ responses…

hmmm… maybe because he has no good response…

For instance… why no comment about God’s inquisition (in the Bible)??? In (seeming) cruelty it far exceeds the Catholic Inquisition.

 

[justasking4]

distracted;4058059]Just Asking seems to Just be selectively answering posters’ responses…

hmmm… maybe because he has no good response…

I usually respond to my fans first and if i have time i will respond to others…

For instance… why no comment about God’s inquisition (in the Bible)??? In (seeming) cruelty it far exceeds the Catholic Inquisition.

i was told by one poster that this is off topic…

 

[distracted]

I usually respond to my fans first and if i have time i will respond to others…

i was told by one poster that this is off topic…

your original post was very broad… i don’t see how this could be off topic when the topic seems to be that OP doesn’t understand Catholicism…

 

[MDK]

I usually respond to my fans first and if i have time i will respond to others…

Fans??? Satan has to be very pleased each and every time you attack the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ. He’s probably even more pleased that you’re using his favorite tactic… deception.

i was told by one poster that this is off topic…

Go to the recommended thread and respond.

 

[guanophore]

In any event, please get off your high horse and stop judging people unfairly and unjustly. Perspective, fairness and decency please!

I think you are asking for something that is beyond capability here. This one believes that he has been sent on a mission by God to show Catholics that they are embracing the false teachings of men (which in turn, come from the devil). His stated goal on CAF is to pursuade Catholics to rebel against the Magesterium, confront them for teaching falsehoods, and convert to “bible christians” so they can be saved. Since all of these Catholic doctrines are not from God, there seems to be no obligation to be decent.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by MDK
In any event, please get off your high horse and stop judging people unfairly and unjustly. Perspective, fairness and decency please!

guanophore
I think you are asking for something that is beyond capability here. This one believes that he has been sent on a mission by God to show Catholics that they are embracing the false teachings of men (which in turn, come from the devil). His stated goal on CAF is to pursuade Catholics to rebel against the Magesterium, confront them for teaching falsehoods, and convert to “bible christians” so they can be saved. Since all of these Catholic doctrines are not from God, there seems to be no obligation to be decent.

:hypno:

 

[guanophore]

your original post was very broad… i don’t see how this could be off topic when the topic seems to be that OP doesn’t understand Catholicism…

ja4 carries a large backpack labeled “anti-Catholic bigotry ammunition”. Out of this, he will pull anything and everything that might be useful to derail a thread. He is not here to learn about Catholicism, but to encourage Catholics to question and reject their faith. He has also been known to attempt to thwart persons who are sincerely here to inquire.

With regard to the topic he "just don’t get it’ because he does not want to get it. He wants to give it!

 

[justasking4]

ja4 carries a large backpack labeled “anti-Catholic bigotry ammunition”. Out of this, he will pull anything and everything that might be useful to derail a thread. He is not here to learn about Catholicism, but to encourage Catholics to question and reject their faith. He has also been known to attempt to thwart persons who are sincerely here to inquire.

With regard to the topic he "just don’t get it’ because he does not want to get it. He wants to give it!

:tsktsk: uch:

 

[guanophore]

:tsktsk: uch:

Are you under some misapprehension that I have forgotten what you posted in the past?

What about those practices-doctrines that are not found in scripture or the church fathers? Things like priestly celibacy as requirement, praying to Mary and
praying the rosary. These things are not mentioned in scripture or early teachings of the church. Are they binding? Do they carry the authority of the scriptures?

Truth is never determined by authority but by the facts. If you don’t have the facts to back up a claim, you really can’t say you have the truth. Do you believe your church can ever be wrong?

I agree much more was taught and said by our Lord. However, the only record we have are the scriptures. We don’t have any other trusted sources that tell us other things. Do you know of any?

I believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God but i don’t always believe what your church or my church teaches is always right. In sense we must pick and choose what we will
believe to be the truth. I’m would think even you have certain qualms about some issues in your church.
"justasking4:

My question is this: since the scripture never teaches such a thing like this about Mary, **is this not
a false teaching **since it cannot be grounded in the scriptures? If not taught in scripture, how would your church know this to be a fact about her?

If you can’t find clear support for a doctrine, then what you are left with is speculation. Speculation is not a foundation in which to build a doctrine on. Its like building on sand. Jesus promised in John 14:26 that the HS would bring “remembrance” of all He said. This would evenually lead to the writing down what they heard. What are the signs that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church?

I have seen this claim many times about Sacred Tradition and those things not recorded in the scriptures. The problem is that if its not in the scriptures, its not
inspired-inerrant. Those things not in the scriptures are not binding though. They do not carry apostolic authority. It is true there are other authorties but since the scriptures alone are
inspired-inerrant these authorities are under the authority of the scriptures. Keep in mind that most of these if not all of them are not grounded in the scriptures.

"guanophore:

ja4, you seem to want to lead Catholics into questioning the Magesterium.

justasking4:

And well they should question. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church who will decieve many. That is why you should hold your church accountable to what the scriptures teach. When you study the marian doctrines in light of the scriptures you will find that the support is not there.

What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church. The scriptures do warn of** false teachers in the church itself**. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.

guanophore:

Furthermore, my question to you was, why do YOU want to discuss it, since you have already rejected the very notion. Why waste your time?

justasking4:

Engaging for the truth is never a waste of time. Secondly it might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

guanophore:

You have already stated they are “speculations of men” and have no validity, since you do not see them in your bible.

** i want to help others see it to**. Engaging for the truth is never a waste of time.

Secondly it might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

If what you say is true, then this would be a false gospel since Paul was totally unaware of the many doctrines in the catholic church.

 

[RobHom]

:hypno:

 

[guanophore]

LOL!