I strongly suggest that you prove purgatory before preaching it.

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believers said:
I strongly suggest you prove purgatory before preaching it.
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buffalo said:
Purgatory
Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God
Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
Rev 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven
1Jn 5:16-17 - degrees of sins distinguished
Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead
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believers said:
Let’s just take one verse. The first verse has nothing to do with Purgatory.

Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect

Mat 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Mat 5:47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Here’s the second verse. Again, no purgatory. Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God

Hbr 12:14
Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Third, “Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects” (!!!)

Jam 3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, **knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
**
Jam 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
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Our beliefs are based upon faith and reason. Purgatory stands up to both.
 
Two simple questions will prove it to 99% of Christians:
  1. Are you perfect and fully sanctified now, without sin and any inclination to sin?
  2. Will you be perfect and fully sanctified in heaven, without sin and any inclination to sin?
When they answer “NO” and “YES”, ask them what will have changed.

Where things get interesting is when they answer “YES” to the first question. 🙂
 
Gene_Church said:
Our beliefs are based upon faith and reason. Purgatory stands up to both.
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buffalo said:
Purgatory
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holy_wood said:
Believers, maybe it will be helpful for me to understand your denial of Purgatory by first understanding your understanding of sin and salvation. Please don’t quote scripture. I wish to know in your own words what you believe the Bible teaches on these things.

Do you believe sin actually wounds or affects your soul?

If so I do not understand why you deny Purgatory.

Your soul will still be wounded when you die if you have yet to repent of venial sins. But we must be perfect to enter the Kingdom, right. So unless your perfect when you die you can only got to Hell.

God in his infinite mercy allows for Purgatory so that those who die before confessing these small infractions against Gods will can still be saved.

The Bible is clear that even anger is an afront to Gods eminance. Have you gotten angry lately. Ever been cut off in traffic. Or when you were in school ever cheat on a test, copy homework, lie to a teacher. Those are sins.

Unless you believe that a Christian can get into the Kingdom without repenting from there sins. (if you do then I’m sure I won’t be the only one to have a few questions for you)

You must believe in Purgatory
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believers said:
Sin is disobedience to God’s Word. Because of Adam’s disobedience, judgment of eternal damnation has been passed onto all of mankind… not just a “stain of a sinful nature”. We all have a serious sin problem that needs to be dealt with. God has provided only one way to deal with this problem and it is through faith only.

New Testament salvation is by Grace through faith alone. Faith is believing and obeying ONLY God’s Word. God’s Word says repentance is absolutely necessary.

By Grace through faith is simple yet complex. God provided a door and the only way to enter is with the correct faith. If you have faith that is vain, the door is closed. In other words, you’ve fallen from grace. If you have the correct faith, you are justified.

Purgatory is not in the Word of God.
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Those who don’t believe in purgatory: Allow me to ask this:
  1. Are you perfect now?
  2. Will you be perfect in Heaven?
If you answered no, then yes; what changed?
 
Regarding the title of this thread, I wonder if believers would be so adamant about statements such as “I strongly suggest you prove the existence of God before preaching it” or “I strongly suggest you prove the truth of the gospel before preaching it”?

Or is there a double standard at work here?
 
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believers:
Purgatory is not in the Word of God
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Neither is the Trinity.
 
Lampo said:
Those who don’t believe in purgatory: Allow me to ask this:
  1. Are you perfect now?
  2. Will you be perfect in Heaven?
If you answered no, then yes; what changed?
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The part of me that is going to heaven is…
You see we are all made up of soul, spirit, and flesh. In my soul is where Christ dwells…You saying HIS dying on the cross and being risen was insufficeint to cleanse my soul?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
The part of me that is going to heaven is…
You see we are all made up of soul, spirit, and flesh. In my soul is where Christ dwells…You saying HIS dying on the cross was insufficeint to cleanse my soul?
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Now you seem to be denying the resurrection of the body. Wow.
 
At some point, you need to let some folks see Purgatory themselves, then they** believe**. 😉
 
myfavoritmartin said:
The part of me that is going to heaven is…
You see we are all made up of soul, spirit, and flesh. In my soul is where Christ dwells…You saying HIS dying on the cross was insufficeint to cleanse my soul?
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WOW. . .I’m stunned. Really.

Are you denying the resurrection of the body, then?

Are you really saying that Christ only dwells in your soul?

Are you saying that Christ, the Man, did not come to save us body and soul?

This is an amazing development!
 
I personally am not a big fan of purgatory debates as I get a little overly passionate about them as they seem to in a way deny the atoning nature of Christ shed blood on the cross.
 
VociMike said:
Two simple questions will prove it to 99% of Christians:
  1. Are you perfect and fully sanctified now, without sin and any inclination to sin?
  2. Will you be perfect and fully sanctified in heaven, without sin and any inclination to sin?
When they answer “NO” and “YES”, ask them what will have changed.

Where things get interesting is when they answer “YES” to the first question. 🙂
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As a former Pentecostal, I can tell you than many Wesleyan Pentecostals would answer yes to number one.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I personally am not a big fan of purgatory debates as I get a little overly passionate about them as they seem to in a way deny the atoning nature of Christ shed blood on the cross.
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You know what they say. . .If it’s too hot. . .🙂

I’m just kidding, actually. I think purgatory is a very worthy discussion as it is so widely misunderstood, yet so fundamentally Biblical and rational.

Stick around!
 
myfavoritmartin said:
The part of me that is going to heaven is…
You see we are all made up of soul, spirit, and flesh. In my soul is where Christ dwells…You saying HIS dying on the cross was insufficeint to cleanse my soul?
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Not if you sin like a normal person does.

I’ll give an example. Say Sin is dirt and Jesus washes our sins away. So we human’s originally roll around in the dirt and are dirty. The Jesus comes along and cleans the dirt off of us, and takes the sin away.
Then as human nature, we sin again, so once again we roll in the dirt. Then we are dirty again. It is true that Jesus cleaned our sins away, but by our choice we chose to be dirtied by sin again.

His dying on the cross is only sufficient if we stay in the state of grace. I hope that example works, I kind of made it up on the spot and it seemed pretty bad.

~Gabe
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I personally am not a big fan of purgatory debates as I get a little overly passionate about them as they seem to in a way deny the atoning nature of Christ shed blood on the cross.
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But its not. Purgatory is a testament to God’s love and His determination that we shall be all perfect and all holy. Purgatory is simply God’s final mercy to us. It is the last step in his fulfillment of his promise of salvation.
 
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