I think ALL Christians Can Unite On This!

[schaick]

Oh, topic-schmopic.

I leave it to the mods to provide correction about when we’re off topic.

I rather like it when topics veer off onto tangents. It mimics real-life discussions–it’s like we’re really sitting at a coffee house talking about religion and the conversation naturally progresses into other topics.

Ok.

But let’s say you’re a Christian talking to a pagan in ancient Jerusalem. He tells you, “Prove to me that this man, Jesus, is God. He looks like a human being to me! If I examine his flesh all I’ll see is human flesh, no? Therefore, he cannot be divine.”

Similarly, you’re telling us, “Prove to us that the Eucharist is really Jesus. It looks just like bread and wine. If I examined it under a microscope, all I’d see is bread and wine, no? Therefore, it cannot be Divine.”

Chapter and verse where the Bible says this, please.

Chapter and verse that says that prophecies that have been fulfilled indicate that a book is inspired, please.

You are misunderstanding my point- as humans the only way we know a messenger or message is from GOD is that there are prophecies fufilled and miracles with eye witnesses.

Why are you asking for circular reasoning it proves nothing.

Example -
The Quran says it is from allah-circular, big deal. Where is the proof- no miracles no prophecies fufilled. Mohammad was a self proclaimed prophet- again no miracles, no eye witnesses to revelations. people saw Mohammad acting weird but niothing else to prove anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schaick
BY the way didn’t I said consecrated wafer? Isn’t the consecrated wafer different from the plain wafer?

Your answer:
It is not a wafer that we worship, schaick.

It’s like a JW saying, “Trinitarians worship 3 gods.” The JW is professing a grave misunderstanding about what the Trinity is.

Quote:
Also did you answer me about the consecrated wine? Catholics are so literal about the bread, but not the wine?

Your response: Ummm…we also do not worship the wine.

My response:
Very interesting!! You are saying that the consecrated bread and wine is no different then the original bread and wine? You are saying at the consecration there is no transformation. Well that is what I believe no transformation but a Sacramental Union at consecration.

AND to JW’s we reply not 3 gods but 3 Persons making up the one GOD. Actually I thing it is the JW’s that believe that Jesus is a lesser god? Weird that they accuse us of worshipping 3 god- maybe they do not worship Jesus as a lesser god?

 

[PRmerger]

You are misunderstanding my point- as humans the only way we know a messenger or message is from GOD is that there are prophecies fufilled and miracles with eye witnesses.

Can you please tell me what prophecy is in the Gospel of Matthew that has been fulfilled? (Note: prophecy–A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.)

Also, what miracle is in the letter of Titus?

 

[PRmerger]

Also did you answer me about the consecrated wine? Catholics are so literal about the bread, but not the wine?
**Your response: ** Ummm…we also do not worship the wine.

My response:
Very interesting!! You are saying that the consecrated bread and wine is no different then the original bread and wine?

No, schaick. How did you get from “We do not worship the wine” that it means “the consecrated wine is no different than the original wine”?

That’s like your telling a Muslim, “We do not worship the Bible” and then the Muslim saying, “Ah! So you are saying that the Bible is no different than Moby Dick!”

 

[schaick]

Fair enough.

But bowing down is not necessarily worshipping, is it?

Or would you say that these Evangelical Christians are worshipping a box of kleenex?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Y-DbBvf7R5Y/Sa7IGRcPfyI/AAAAAAAAWDA/K6_bG1fYWw0/s400/altar_call.jpg

Did you realize that there are Bible verses that the literal says bowing down, but they have been translated as worshipping and then used by people to prove Jesus having been worshipped!

Matt. 2:2 - “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east,** and have come to worship Him**.”

2saying, `Where is he who was born king of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, **and we came to bow to him.’ **

Matt. 2:11 - “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.”

11and having come to the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,

This one does imply worship:
Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

33and those in the boat having come, did bow to him, saying, `Truly – God’s Son art thou.’

Matt. 28:9 - 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet **and worshiped him. **

9and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!’ and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him.

 

[schaick]

No, schaick. How did you get from “We do not worship the wine” that it means “the consecrated wine is no different than the original wine”?

That’s like your telling a Muslim, “We do not worship the Bible” and then the Muslim saying, “Ah! So you are saying that the Bible is no different than Moby Dick!”

I have repeatedly said consecrated and you keep leaving out the word consecrated. I know you do not worship the bread and wine, but you do worship the consecrated bread and wine.

What exactly happens during the consecration according to Catholics? Don’t you believe it turns into the Body and Blood of Christ?

Well that makes no sense. The Bible is different from Moby Dick because it contains the inspired Word of GOD. GOD’s message to mankind.

By the way Muslims will say that the do not worship the Quran just as we do not worship the Holy Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

Did you realize that there are Bible verses that the literal says bowing down, but they have been translated as worshipping and then used by people to prove Jesus having been worshipped!

Exactly.

And do you think those people in that Protestant church photo are worshipping that box of kleenex? They are indeed bowing before it.

 

[PRmerger]

I have repeatedly said consecrated and you keep leaving out the word consecrated. I know you do not worship the bread and wine, but you do worship the consecrated bread and wine.

Well, then, why don’t you call it what Catholics call it: the Eucharist?

To use my bible analogy: you would object if a Muslim said, “Okay, so you don’t worship any book, like Moby Dick, but you do worship a holy book. You keep leaving out the fact that I said ‘holy’ book.”

What exactly happens during the consecration according to Catholics?

What “exactly” happens? I don’t know exactly. It’s a mystery.

Don’t you believe it turns into the Body and Blood of Christ?

Yes.

Well that makes no sense. The Bible is different from Moby Dick because it contains the inspired Word of GOD. GOD’s message to mankind.

This is another example of begging the question.

You assume that it’s the inspired word of God because it’s the Bible. You assume that the Bible is inspired because it’s the Word of God.

Try telling that to a Muslim and see how he responds.

By the way Muslims will say that the do not worship the Quran just as we do not worship the Holy Bible.

'kay. But they say that the Koran is inspired because it says it is.

Just like you say that’s how *you *know our Bible is inspired.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have repeatedly said consecrated and you keep leaving out the word consecrated. I know you do not worship the bread and wine, but you do worship the consecrated bread and wine.

What exactly happens during the consecration according to Catholics? Don’t you believe it turns into the Body and Blood of Christ?

Well that makes no sense. The Bible is different from Moby Dick because it contains the inspired Word of GOD. GOD’s message to mankind.

By the way Muslims will say that the do not worship the Quran just as we do not worship the Holy Bible.

Please clarify as you only speak for you…Well that makes no sense to me…You follow with the bible is different from Moby Dick…now do you actually believe that you are usuing good judgement saying that. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church provided you and I the bible that we have. To tell any Catholic on this post that it contains the inspired Word of God makes no sense. I would ask why do you believe it is the inspired Word of God? It does not self authenticate as being so.

Paul says that Jesus is the message to mankind and that The Church is the mystery hidden for all ages through which the manifold wisdom of God is made known…not the Bible…do you diagree with Paul? Would you consider the manifold wisdom of God being made known a message of sorts?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

No, not all Christians believe that. I don’t know if you would count Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as Christians but they don’t.

You are mistaken. We do believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one God. That’s right on the Title Page to the Book of Mormon.

There are differences in how we view the Trinity (whom we call the Godhead) but that’s not one of them. Three Persons, One God – on that we agree.

 

[schaick]

Matthew is not only the record of eye witnessed miracles and prophecy that Jesus fulfilled, the record of Jesus’ teachings, but also shows John propheciseing about Jesus:
Matthew 3
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus prophecising about Himself:
Matthew 12
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 17
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Matthew 20
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Matthew 26
1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”
…
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
…
And Peter denying Christ:
34 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”

Paul identifies Luke as Scripture:
1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”**

Footnotes:
[a]1 Timothy 5:18 Deut. 25:4
**1 Timothy 5:18 Luke 10:7

Concerning Titus - Paul is identified as a GOD inspired writer of Scripture:
**2 Peter3 ****
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2 Peter 1
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

1Peter 1
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Paul explaining where Scripture is from:
1 Corinthians 2
12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Maybe it would help you if instead of looking at the Holy Bible as the work of the Catholic Church, consider it the message from GOD. The Catholic Church was simply the compiler of the codices previously verified by GOD through HIS Apostles.

Pray about it- that you can discern the difference between Moby Dick and the Holy Bible.**

 

[PRmerger]

Pray about it- that you can discern the difference between Moby Dick and the Holy Bible.

The only way you know what belongs in the Bible, schaick, is because you have deferred to the authority of the Catholic Church.

The bishops–Catholic bishops-- decided for you that Titus belongs in the Bible, but that the Shepherd of Hermas does not.

 

[schaick]

Well, then, why don’t you call it what Catholics call it: the Eucharist?

To use my bible analogy: you would object if a Muslim said, “Okay, so you don’t worship any book, like Moby Dick, but you do worship a holy book. You keep leaving out the fact that I said ‘holy’ book.”

What “exactly” happens? I don’t know exactly. It’s a mystery.

So you worship the Thanksgiving - the Eucharist? You don’t celebrate the Eucharist?

So it is a mystery and not a miracle? Agree again. No decernible miracle= none has occurred.

So you don’t believe the bread and wine transforms into the body and blood of Christ? ok. Neither do I but I do believe the Real Presence is in, under and with the bread and wine in Sacremental Union.

 

[PRmerger]

Matthew is not only the record of eye witnessed miracles and prophecy that Jesus fulfilled, the record of Jesus’ teachings, but also shows John propheciseing about Jesus:

No, schaick. You said that the way you can tell something is inspired is because it contains prophecies and miracles (something, BTW, that’s not found in Scripture–you decided because you heard another man say this, but you never read in a single page of Scripture: “By this you shall know that this book is inspired–that it contains prophecies and miracles!”)

Matthew and John were written after the fact. So the “prophecies” you’re proposing are actually history. That’s like saying a newspaper written on October 10, 2011 talking about September 11, 2001 was making a prophecy. :whacky:

So what prophesies have been fulfilled in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

 

[PRmerger]

So you worship the Thanksgiving - the Eucharist? You don’t celebrate the Eucharist?

We worship God, present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

And, yes, we celebrate the Eucharist.

So it is a mystery and not a miracle?

Of course it is both! Are not all miracles mysteries?

No decernible miracle= none has occurred.

Ah, so here you go again not being able to defend the Incarnation to a Muslim. He will tell you: Jesus looked exactly like a human being. No discernible difference between him and Judas. Therefore, there was no miracle of God becoming Man.

See what happens, schaick, when you deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? You cannot then defend the Divinity of Christ.

So you don’t believe the bread and wine transforms into the body and blood of Christ? ok. Neither do I but I do believe the Real Presence is in, under and with the bread and wine in Sacremental Union.

You don’t believe in the Eucharist being the Real Presence of Christ. A Muslim doesn’t believe that Jesus is Divine.

You cannot deny one without being unable to defend the other.

 

[schaick]

No, schaick. You said that the way you can tell something is inspired is because it contains prophecies and miracles (something, BTW, that’s not found in Scripture–you decided because you heard another man say this, but you never read in a single page of Scripture: “By this you shall know that this book is inspired–that it contains prophecies and miracles!”)

Matthew and John were written after the fact. So the “prophecies” you’re proposing are actually history. That’s like saying a newspaper written on October 10, 2011 talking about September 11, 2001 was making a prophecy. :whacky:

So what prophesies have been fulfilled in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

lol!! some “man” by the name of Jesus:
John 5
20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.
,
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.

How about:
Exodus 4

• 1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, ‘The LORD did not appear to you’?” *
  Exodus 4 goes on to tell about the miracles given to Moses.

Of courses the prophecies are historical fact- they have been fulfilled. The Gospel message that was first revealed in the Old Testament.

Yes miracles are mysteries as to how they were done but not if they were done. Otherwise there is no point in there being a miracle.

Your response about the incarnation of Jesus makes no sense. So we have virgins that have known no men having children right and left? Cool thing here Gabriel goes to Mary and then as a confirming witness Joseph.

Matthew 1
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

In the Muslim’s case- no confirming eye witnesses seeing, hearing revelation to Mohammad. No people dreaming that Gabriel comes to them saying Mohammad is a prophet.

I don’t deny the Real Presence in, under and with the bread and wine, a Sacramental Union. There is no decernible miraculous transformation.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t deny the Real Presence in, under and with the bread and wine, a Sacramental Union. There is no decernible miraculous transformation.

Again, this is the exact argument that Muslims use to deny Christ’s divinity. “He looks just like any other man. No discernible difference between his flesh and the flesh of any other great sinner.” In fact, if you examined it under a microscope you couldn’t discern Jesus’ flesh from that of another sinner’s flesh.

So if that’s your argument against the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist–that there’s no discernible miraculous transformation–,then you have to deny the real presence of God in Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Of courses the prophecies are historical fact- they have been fulfilled.

Firstly, schaick, tell me where in Scripture it says that you must use “prophesies and miracles” as a criterion for discerning whether something is inspired or not.

Chapter and verse, please. (And book, too).

Secondly, what prophesy and miracle is in the book of Titus? And in the book of Hebrews? And in the book of Philemon?

Thirdly, if it was a historical fact, that is, it happened AFTER the fact, then it cannot be a prophesy. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all writing AFTER the event of the Incarnation, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Your response about the incarnation of Jesus makes no sense.

So what “discernible transformation” could you point a pagan to when he looked at Jesus’ un-resurrected flesh that would indicate to him that a divine being was in front of him?

 

[CopticChristian]

Firstly, schaick, tell me where in Scripture it says that you must use “prophesies and miracles” as a criterion for discerning whether something is inspired or not.

Chapter and verse, please. (And book, too).

Secondly, what prophesy and miracle is in the book of Titus? And in the book of Hebrews? And in the book of Philemon?

Thirdly, if it was a historical fact, that is, it happened AFTER the fact, then it cannot be a prophesy. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all writing AFTER the event of the Incarnation, right?

This notion of Prophesy seems to be a common Paradigm and Richard Kastner has failed to respond in another posting concerning this. When did Protestants resort to this notion of Prophesy to “prove the bible is true”? Did they give up on Sola Scriptura?

 

[PRmerger]

When did Protestants resort to this notion of Prophesy to “prove the bible is true”?

How this developed is that one Protestant heard another Protestant say it, who then passed it on and another Protestant believed it…but not a single one of them ever read “Prophesy proves that the Bible is true” in a single page of Scripture.

There is no list in Scripture of criteria of how one discerns whether a book belongs in the Bible. ** That was the purview of the Church.** They discerned for you and me what was inspired and what wasn’t.