I think ALL Christians Can Unite On This!

[schaick]

Again, this is the exact argument that Muslims use to deny Christ’s divinity. “He looks just like any other man. No discernible difference between his flesh and the flesh of any other great sinner.” In fact, if you examined it under a microscope you couldn’t discern Jesus’ flesh from that of another sinner’s flesh.

So if that’s your argument against the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist–that there’s no discernible miraculous transformation–,then you have to deny the real presence of God in Jesus.

So you do not believe the words Jesus spoke about Himself or the miracles He performed? Interesting.

 

[PRmerger]

So you do not believe the words Jesus spoke about Himself or the miracles He performed? Interesting.

That is a different argument rather than yours, which is: the bread and wine look like nothing miraculous, therefore He is not present there.

If that’s your argument (and it is!), then you won’t be able to defend Jesus’ divinity. Because his flesh and blood looks like nothing miraculous. Therefore, a pagan will argue, he is not divine.

Are you still working on trying to find the chapter and verse that says that by prophesies and miracles you will know that a book is inspired?

Or have you come to understand that this is something you believed because you heard another man say it. But you never read it in a single page of the Bible.

Also, are you still looking for the miracles and prophesies that are in Hebrews and Titus?

 

[schaick]

How this developed is that one Protestant heard another Protestant say it, who then passed it on and another Protestant believed it…but not a single one of them ever read “Prophesy proves that the Bible is true” in a single page of Scripture.

There is no list in Scripture of criteria of how one discerns whether a book belongs in the Bible. ** That was the purview of the Church.** They discerned for you and me what was inspired and what wasn’t.

You are saying man guessed at which Books to put into the Bible? Man chose what the Bible was to say and not GOD?

Actually it is a very good thing that you are in a church that does your thinking for you if you can not discern between what is truth and what is fake, spurious Scripture!!

2 Peter 1
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 1
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

 

[PRmerger]

You are saying man guessed at which Books to put into the Bible? Man chose what the Bible was to say and not GOD?

Well, it was Catholic men–bishops–who discerned for you that Hebrews and Titus were *theopneustos. * The Holy Spirit guided them of course.

[SIGN1]But you would not know that Hebrews and Titus were inspired were it not for these Catholic men, schaick.[/SIGN1]

Unless you think there’s some other way, without the intervention of the Catholic Church, that you would know this?

Are you going to argue that Scripture is self-evident or something? I’ve heard that absurdity bandied around by some protestants. And that, frankly, is the most non-Scriptural (can’t find that in a single page of the Bible either), ludicrous proposal I’ve heard about discerning Scripture.

Actually it is a very good thing that you are in a church that does your thinking for you if you can not discern between what is truth and what is fake, spurious Scripture!!

Heh. If I let the church do my thinking for me, then SO DO YOU.

For each and every time you quote Scripture, then **you are giving tacit approval to the authority of the Catholic Church **to do your thinking for you.

Like here, you are quoting 2 Peter ONLY BECAUSE someone else–a Catholic someone–told you that it’s Scripture.

2 Peter 1
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 1
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Still waiting for the miracles and prophesies that are in the books of Hebrew and Titus. Oh, and how about in Philemon, too?

 

[schaick]

That is a different argument rather than yours, which is: the bread and wine look like nothing miraculous, therefore He is not present there.

If that’s your argument (and it is!), then you won’t be able to defend Jesus’ divinity. Because his flesh and blood looks like nothing miraculous. Therefore, a pagan will argue, he is not divine.

Are you still working on trying to find the chapter and verse that says that by prophesies and miracles you will know that a book is inspired?

Or have you come to understand that this is something you believed because you heard another man say it. But you never read it in a single page of the Bible.

Also, are you still looking for the miracles and prophesies that are in Hebrews and Titus?

You are fooling yourself if you believe Jesus’ incarnation can be proved by some transformation that you can not see or prove that it happened.

You have a transformation that you can not prove in anyway shape or form. This is supposed to prove that Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate and not the fact that Jesus’ story was prophecised in the Old Testament, Jesus prophecised about Himself, what Jesus said about Himself, what Jesus knew about GOD, performed miracles in front of many people, ressurrected, ascended, etc.

Actually you asked for Matthews originally which I gave with the answer for Titus. I did not quote you in my answer so you may ve missed it. Which could be used for other of Paul’s writings. An eye witness verifying that Paul is telling us an amazing and correct bit of information from GOD:
2 Peter3
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as** our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. **16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Hebrews was written by a witness of Jesus’ Old Testament prophecy being fulfilled and miracles. When you read Hebrews look down at the footnotes-there are many references pointing back to the Old Testament

Hebrews also has information supporting the idea that GOD helps us discern by use of miracles:

Hebrews 2
3…This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

 

[PRmerger]

You are fooling yourself if you believe Jesus’ incarnation can be proved by some transformation that you can not see or prove that it happened.

EXACTLY!!! :clapping::extrahappy::dancing:

This is the exact RIGHT argument, schaick!

Do you see what you have just agreed to???

Now you can see how the dogma of the Real Presence is TRUE!!!

You cannot “see or prove that it happened”, yet just like the dogma of the Incarnation, you can believe it actually happens!

 

[schaick]

Well, it was Catholic men–bishops–who discerned for you that Hebrews and Titus were *theopneustos. * The Holy Spirit guided them of course.

[SIGN1]But you would not know that Hebrews and Titus were inspired were it not for these Catholic men, schaick.[/SIGN1]

Unless you think there’s some other way, without the intervention of the Catholic Church, that you would know this?

Are you going to argue that Scripture is self-evident or something? I’ve heard that absurdity bandied around by some protestants. And that, frankly, is the most non-Scriptural (can’t find that in a single page of the Bible either), ludicrous proposal I’ve heard about discerning Scripture.

Heh. If I let the church do my thinking for me, then SO DO YOU.

For each and every time you quote Scripture, then **you are giving tacit approval to the authority of the Catholic Church **to do your thinking for you.

Like here, you are quoting 2 Peter ONLY BECAUSE someone else–a Catholic someone–told you that it’s Scripture.

Still waiting for the miracles and prophesies that are in the books of Hebrew and Titus. Oh, and how about in Philemon, too?

Impatience? I do have a life outside this forum!

Member of the Universal Church yes Catholic as we know it today no.

LOL! You are accusing me of not being able to think for myself- pretty rude of you by the way!

Am I enabling you as your church has? Maybe you should be trying to figure out why these Books are included in the Bible. Who told the Early Church Fathers to reference just these specific Books in their writings?

Do realize the Gospel message was first told in the Old Testament?

 

[schaick]

EXACTLY!!! :clapping::extrahappy::dancing:

This is the exact RIGHT argument, schaick!

Do you see what you have just agreed to???

Now you can see how the dogma of the Real Presence is TRUE!!!

You cannot “see or prove that it happened”, yet just like the dogma of the Incarnation, you can believe it actually happens!

**You have a belief that a transformation of bread and wine into Christ that you can not prove in anyway shape or form. **

This is the only thing that helps you believe that Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate?

I have the truth and proven facts that Jesus’ story was prophecised in the Old Testament, Jesus prophecised about Himself, what Jesus said about Himself, what Jesus knew about GOD, performed miracles in front of many people, ressurrected and ascended, etc.

All in front of many eye witnesses.

Proverbs 14
15 The simple believe anything,
but the prudent give thought to their steps
…
18 The simple inherit folly,
but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.

 

[PRmerger]

Hebrews was written by a witness of Jesus’ Old Testament prophecy being fulfilled and miracles.

Where does it say that? Please quote the chapter and verse. Thanks.

When you read Hebrews look down at the footnotes-there are many references pointing back to the Old Testament.

Does your church consider the footnotes to be part of the inspired word of God?

At any rate, any type of reference to the OT is wonderful, but what does that have to do with proving something is inspired?

Also, could you please cite the chapter and verse that says that a book of the NT had to be written by a witness of Jesus. Thanks.

Hebrews also has information supporting the idea that GOD helps us discern by use of miracles:

That’s also wonderful, schaick. But how does that prove that it’s inspired?

 

[PRmerger]

Impatience? I do have a life outside this forum!

Fair enough. But as you have answered numerous other posts, it’s curious that you wouldn’t respond to this one, posited quite a few times.

Actually, before you go searching Titus and Philemon for examples of miracles and prophesies, why don’t you first start with providing the chapter and verse that says that this is a criterion for discerning whether a book is inspired or not.

Otherwise your searching Titus and Philemon for examples of miracles and prophesies is irrelevant.

For you must first prove that this is what Scripture states is a requirement to be inspired…

 

[PRmerger]

Member of the Universal Church yes Catholic as we know it today no.

This, too, is excellent of you to admit.

Now you are acknowledging that there was* another* authority–something OUTSIDE of Scripture–that you use to determine a truth about God. Whether it was this “universal” Catholic Church or a different Catholic church is beside the point.

It was a Church that had Bishops, a pope and met in ecumenical councils. So if your church does this, then at least you’re connected to that degree.

So it’s good of you to come to this realization, schaick, that there was an authority that discerned for you that Titus and Philemon were inspired.

No need now to feverishly be checking the Bible for any verse that states that prophesies and miracles are what determines if a book is theopneustos.

(I can already tell you the answer: it’s nowhere. You would have been searching until infinity.)

But that point becomes irrelevant now that you understand that it was a Universal Church to which you give tacit authority in discerning whether Titus and Philemon are inspired. NOT the Bible as your authority, but the Church.

 

[schaick]

Old Testament reference confirms Old Testament verses.

You are either ignoring my posts or unable to see the truth.

Correct - *No need now to feverishly be checking the Bible for any verse that states that prophesies and miracles are what determines if a book is theopneustos *it is right here in plain sight.:

2 Peter 1
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. **21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
**

You are giving way too much credit to an institution and man. GOD is the authority:
Hebrews 2
3…This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

lol!! How in the world do you think the Disciples were able to discern Jesus was from GOD? They didn’t have the Church to lead the way for them.

eye-witness accounts recorded
Revelation 1
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

GOD is the authority. Man did not coose they simply confirm what GOD chose.

2 Peter3*
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[schaick]

I see you are really struggling with this. Maybe this example will help you connect the dots.

Paul visited by Jesus on the road to Damascus. His traveling companions are eye witnesses to a strange occurance hearing sounds or voices, possibly see a light, Paul goes blind.

An outside witness Anaias visited by Jesus and told to restore Paul’s sight and:
Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Ananias becomes eye witness to the miracle.

We have a miracle-sight healed, eye witness to the miracle, a complete change in attitude of Paul-witnessed by all, a prophecy that today has been fulfilled- Paul has proclaim Jesus’ name to almost all peoplel.

Witness of the time period saying yes Paul is inspired:
2 Peter3
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yet you need a institution from today far removed from the scene to tell you Paul wrote GOD inspired Scripture?

How did this institution first become convinced that Paul wrote inspired Scripture?

They recognized what GOD put forth.

 

[CopticChristian]

I see you are really struggling with this. Maybe this example will help you connect the dots.

Paul visited by Jesus on the road to Damascus. His traveling companions are eye witnesses to a strange occurance hearing sounds or voices, possibly see a light, Paul goes blind.

An outside witness Anaias visited by Jesus and told to restore Paul’s sight and:
Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Ananias becomes eye witness to the miracle.

We have a miracle-sight healed, eye witness to the miracle, a complete change in attitude of Paul-witnessed by all, a prophecy that today has been fulfilled- Paul has proclaim Jesus’ name to almost all peoplel.

Witness of the time period saying yes Paul is inspired:
2 Peter3
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yet you need a institution from today far removed from the scene to tell you Paul wrote GOD inspired Scripture?

How did this institution first become convinced that Paul wrote inspired Scripture?

They recognized what GOD put forth.

Just because you cannot see something does not mean it didn’t exist. Paul saw the OT and knew it but could not see it and his eyes once blinded having gained sight didn’t see something newly created but what was already there. The Old Testament Church/New Testament Church are the same but the Jews and Paul did not see it…it was a mystery, hidden…

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

It was always there, just couldn’t see it, many as you know today are blinded and just don’t see it…Mysteries are like that.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Originally Posted by Dndspoon
#1. God is made up of The Father, Son, And The Holy Spirit, but there is one God. In Other words, The Holy Trinity

.

Clarification; Scripture reveals that God is “Spirit, God is Love”. Jesus reveals that the Son and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all one God.

I am confused by the language “God IS MADE UP of The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit” on the surface it can pass for the Trinity, but theologically it flunks the revealed doctrine of the blessed Trinity.

amber_lux;8354489]That eliminates the majority of pre-Nicene Council Christians.

Amber

Not so fast; The apostles and their successors pre-Nicene Council believed and practiced the revealed doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, for they “all” baptized in the "name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This apostolic “Faith” (not doctrine yet) in the Trinity came under attack which the Nicene Council and others confirmed and defended what Jesus revealed and the apostles believed and taught who handed down the blessed Trinity. The Nicene councils and others which followed developed “Trinity” as doctrine so that this revelation of Jesus Christ becomes binding on all believers, thereby seperating the goats from the sheep.

The Father, Son, Holy Spirit revelation becomes binding on all believers (doctrine) later and defined as “Trinity one God” because this apostolic faith came under attack by heretics. The Nicene council and others never invented the doctrine of the Trinity, She defended, defined and developed its understanding as “Trinity One God” a Mystery binding on all those who follow Jesus.

The Revelations of Jesus Christ and the teachings of the apostles all become doctrine (binding) whenever the gates of hell come against these revelations but never prevailed the Catholic church as history proves.

 

[CopticChristian]

.

Clarification; Scripture reveals that God is “Spirit, God is Love”. Jesus reveals that the Son and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all one God.

I am confused by the language “God IS MADE UP of The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit” on the surface it can pass for the Trinity, but theologically it flunks the revealed doctrine of the blessed Trinity.

Not so fast; The apostles and their successors pre-Nicene Council believed and practiced the revealed doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, for they “all” baptized in the "name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This apostolic “Faith” (not doctrine yet) in the Trinity came under attack which the Nicene Council and others confirmed and defended what Jesus revealed and the apostles believed and taught who handed down the blessed Trinity. The Nicene councils and others which followed developed “Trinity” as doctrine so that this revelation of Jesus Christ becomes binding on all believers, thereby seperating the goats from the sheep.

The Father, Son, Holy Spirit revelation becomes binding on all believers (doctrine) later and defined as “Trinity one God” because this apostolic faith came under attack by heretics. The Nicene council and others never invented the doctrine of the Trinity, She defended, defined and developed its understanding as “Trinity One God” a Mystery binding on all those who follow Jesus.

The Revelations of Jesus Christ and the teachings of the apostles all become doctrine (binding) whenever the gates of hell come against these revelations but never prevailed the Catholic church as history proves.

The Trinity is as you know one of those Mysteries.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Trinity is as you know one of those Mysteries.

Amen, there is only one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that can adminster the revealed mysteries of God;

2 Cor. 5:18* And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us.

Colossians 1: 24…Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, 25 of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, 26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, 27 to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;… 29
For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.

1 Corinthians 4: 1 Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 **Now it is of course required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. **

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

schaick;8461703]I see you are really struggling with this. Maybe this example will help you connect the dots.

Paul visited by Jesus on the road to Damascus. His traveling companions are eye witnesses to a strange occurance hearing sounds or voices, possibly see a light, Paul goes blind.

An outside witness Anaias visited by Jesus and told to restore Paul’s sight and:
Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Yes Saul (died in baptism) is defeated by (resurrected in Jesus via baptism) Paul when Saul is recieved into the kingdom of heaven by the mysterious sacramental work excerised in the ministery of reconciliation of “Baptism”. Which the Church adminstered to Saul.

Jesus himself uses “spittle and mud” to heal a man born blind, Christ works His healing mysteriously through the (sacrament)= visible sign of “spittle and mud” to heal the blind man born blind. But Jesus never commands “spittle and mud” be used to reconcile humanity to himself, Jesus commands His church to “baptize with water and the spirit” Jn.3:5, Mt. 28:18-20

Yet you need a institution from today far removed from the scene to tell you Paul wrote GOD inspired Scripture?

How did this institution first become convinced that Paul wrote inspired Scripture?

Because Jesus instituted His Church “upon Peter” (Mt.16:14-19) which came before the bible was ever canonized by the Catholic church. Paul’s last scene was in Rome, Peter and all those succeeded by Linus, Anacletus, Clement in the Popes never left Rome. In fact the bones of Paul and Peter are still there in Rome. What Paul wrote and taught orally was handed down by these apostolic successors and others like them to today.

1 Timothy 3:15… you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[PRmerger]

Old Testament reference confirms Old Testament verses.

Chapter and verse for this belief, please.

 

[schaick]

Yes Saul (died in baptism) is defeated by (resurrected in Jesus via baptism) Paul when Saul is recieved into the kingdom of heaven by the mysterious sacramental work excerised in the ministery of reconciliation of “Baptism”. Which the Church adminstered to Saul.

Jesus himself uses “spittle and mud” to heal a man born blind, Christ works His healing mysteriously through the (sacrament)= visible sign of “spittle and mud” to heal the blind man born blind. But Jesus never commands “spittle and mud” be used to reconcile humanity to himself, Jesus commands His church to “baptize with water and the spirit” Jn.3:5, Mt. 28:18-20

Because Jesus instituted His Church “upon Peter” (Mt.16:14-19) which came before the bible was ever canonized by the Catholic church. Paul’s last scene was in Rome, Peter and all those succeeded by Linus, Anacletus, Clement in the Popes never left Rome. In fact the bones of Paul and Peter are still there in Rome. What Paul wrote and taught orally was handed down by these apostolic successors and others like them to today.

1 Timothy 3:15… you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Peter was never a pope, recognized as a pope and the offic of pope did not exist until some time later.

You too are missing a step. How did the Church know? Definition of Church- all of us called out to be Christians.

Hebrews 2
3…This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

The Gospel message was written well before the Jesus’ time -in the Old Testament Scripture that the Jews considered Scripture.

I think a good exercise for all of you would be to read the false and spurious Scriptures and try to figure out why they are not in the Bible.