I think ALL Christians Can Unite On This!

[schaick]

Your verses prove nothing. The traditions that you are to hold on to must be proved to be GOD inspired just as the Bible must be proven to be GOD inspired.

LOL! You need to go back through the posts or do you need the Catholic Church to do that for you. I grow weary of the rudeness and it is rubbing off onto me. Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread and I will not let myself be sucked in…

Catholics can prove the cannon of the bible from historical and eyewitness accounts supported and confirmed by the liturgical prayers and practices from antiquity recorded in both the gospels and epistles of the new testament.

Think - why did the early Christians continue to reference only certain books? What was in those few Books that made them stand out over all the others? What was their clue that the Books were inspired? Glad you understand the need for eyewitness accounts.

Go back to around post 100 and read through.

One thing that I forgot to add was that at one point it is implied that Matthew was recording history- the fact the Jesus had prophecised His death and ressurection and Peter’s 3 denials.

**Is Matthew being accussed of lying? Making up history? **

 

[PRmerger]

Think - why did the early Christians continue to reference only certain books? What was in those few Books that made them stand out over all the others? What was their clue that the Books were inspired?

This is a great argument for Tradition, schaick. Why did the early Christians continue to reference only certain books–because they were consistent with the Oral Treaching, or Sacred Tradition, which had been passed on by the Apostles through the kerygma.

That came first. Sacred Tradition.

Then came the Bible.

From the Catholic Church.

Glad you understand the need for eyewitness accounts.

Of course. No one is denying this.

It’s just that when you claim that this is what is the criterion for inspiration you are not using Scripture to determine this, but Tradition–Catholic tradition.

 

[CopticChristian]

Your verses prove nothing. The traditions that you are to hold on to must be proved to be GOD inspired just as the Bible must be proven to be GOD inspired.LOL! You need to go back through the posts or do you need the Catholic Church to do that for you. I grow weary of the rudeness and it is rubbing off onto me. Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread and I will not let myself be sucked in…

Catholics can prove the cannon of the bible from historical and eyewitness accounts supported and confirmed by the liturgical prayers and practices from antiquity recorded in both the gospels and epistles of the new testament.

**Think - why did the early Christians continue to reference only certain books? ** What was in those few Books that made them stand out over all the others? What was their clue that the Books were inspired? Glad you understand the need for eyewitness accounts.

Go back to around post 100 and read through.

One thing that I forgot to add was that at one point it is implied that Matthew was recording history- the fact the Jesus had prophecised His death and ressurection and Peter’s 3 denials.

**Is Matthew being accussed of lying? Making up history? **

Simple question you keep dodging. How do you prove that the Bible is God inspired and show me some writings and the history of the early Christian groups you refer to that referenced certain books?

 

[CopticChristian]

OK we are way off topic!!

Not true we know Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate because of the truths in the Holy Bible.

I am amazed that Catholics do not realize that the Holy Bible proves itself.
What sets the Holy Bible apart from any other writing? Prophecies that have been fufilled, again in front of eye witnesses. Catholics always say what about Nostradamus? I say - Does he have miracles being performed in front of eye witnesses? No.

The Holy Bible is the only book that I know of that contains prophecies fufilled AND miracles recorded that were performed in front of multiple witnesses. There are also prophecies from Jesus that were fufilled in His lifetime-his own death and resurrection.

Now remember I do believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in, under and with the bread and wine - a Sacremental Union. I am so blessed in this respect- there is no need for a miracle in this case.

The bread and wine remain fully bread and wine never transforming. The Real Presence for me being the glorified ressurrected body and blood of Jesus.

John 6
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Keep in mind and do not look down on those that do not believe in the Real Presence. Did you realize that eat in the Old Testamemnt = consuming the message!:
Isaiah 55
1 “Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.

Ezekiel 2
8 But you, son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not rebel like that rebellious people; open your mouth and eat what I give you

Ezekiel 3
1 And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the people of Israel

You continually dodge the question. You say that there are truths in the Bible and that you are amazed that Catholics do not realize that the Bible proves itself. Now imagine what a service you can do…

There are a million viewing the non-Catholic forum and 3000 viewing this post. You have a tremendous audience to bring the revelation you have, the knowedge you have, and the understanding you have and not to mention every Catholic in this community…

Tell us how you came to this conclusion and how and why you believe it so that you can aid us in this lack of realization…do I have to beg?

 

[schaick]

LOL! I have not dodged the question I have repeatedly answered you. one more time - the ONLY way a human whether today, a student of a Disciple r a Disciple knows if a Scripture is inspired or a messanger is from GOD - signs from GOD. Fufilled prophecy and miracles with eye witnesses.

Goodness people think!! Use your noggin! WHY did any tradition become Scripture? ** The Scripture we have today is either first hand accounts or written by students of the Apostles who were the eye witnesses to the signs from GOD, miracles and fulfilled prophecies.**

We know letters [books] were being passed around the different Churches-*16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea. *

In 108AD Polycarp who was a disciple of John acknowledged 15 of the Books . By 170 AD there was a list of Books considered to be inspired.

Why a non- catholic does not follow Catholic Tradition- no signs -miracles or prophecies from GOD and no eyewitnesses of signs to prove your traditons. No eye witnesses of Peter being pope, no miracles or fufilled prophecies of Mary being co-redeemer, Ark of the New Covenant, Mary’s of immacultae conception, etc.

Now you want to kow why certain books are referenced over others. What in the world do they teach in Catholic Schools, Sunday School?: The huge majority of Jews did not recognized the Old Testament Apocrphya. Only after the Reformation with the Catholic Council of Trent in 1546 did these Books become Canon. Catholics had to find support for some of their newly developed doctrines. These Books contain information that is not historically or doctrinally accurate, there are contradictions. Where parts may be true and accurate the whole Book can not be considered inspired by GOD.

New Testament writings that are not considered Scripture may contain mythical creatures, have false authorship, written too late, again historical errors so also while parts may hold truths the whole Book can not be considered inspired by GOD.

 

[PRmerger]

LOL! I have not dodged the question I have repeatedly answered you. one more time - the ONLY way a human whether today, a student of a Disciple r a Disciple knows if a Scripture is inspired or a messanger is from GOD - signs from GOD. Fufilled prophecy and miracles with eye witnesses.

Please cite the Scripture verse that you get this belief from, schaick.

And, as asked earlier, what Scripture verse that says that “Old Testament reference confirms Old Testament verses”?

 

[CopticChristian]

LOL! I have not dodged the question I have repeatedly answered you. one more time - the ONLY way a human whether today, a student of a Disciple r a Disciple knows if a Scripture is inspired or a messanger is from GOD - signs from GOD. Fufilled prophecy and miracles with eye witnesses.
Goodness people think!! Use your noggin! WHY did any tradition become Scripture? ** The Scripture we have today is either first hand accounts or written by students of the Apostles who were the eye witnesses to the signs from GOD, miracles and fulfilled prophecies.**

We know letters [books] were being passed around the different Churches-*16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea. *

In 108AD Polycarp who was a disciple of John acknowledged 15 of the Books . By 170 AD there was a list of Books considered to be inspired.

Why a non- catholic does not follow Catholic Tradition- no signs -miracles or prophecies from GOD and no eyewitnesses of signs to prove your traditons. No eye witnesses of Peter being pope, no miracles or fufilled prophecies of Mary being co-redeemer, Ark of the New Covenant, Mary’s of immacultae conception, etc.

Now you want to kow why certain books are referenced over others. What in the world do they teach in Catholic Schools, Sunday School?: The huge majority of Jews did not recognized the Old Testament Apocrphya. Only after the Reformation with the Catholic Council of Trent in 1546 did these Books become Canon. Catholics had to find support for some of their newly developed doctrines. These Books contain information that is not historically or doctrinally accurate, there are contradictions. Where parts may be true and accurate the whole Book can not be considered inspired by GOD.

New Testament writings that are not considered Scripture may contain mythical creatures, have false authorship, written too late, again historical errors so also while parts may hold truths the whole Book can not be considered inspired by GOD.

You insult people and say that they should use their head. All you have to do is explain it like you are explaining it to a 5th grader in very simple terms step by step. You will then be able to extinguish your laughter, know that people are using their noggins. It would then be possible to compare and contrast what you know with what you querry is taught in Catholic Schools. Is that too much to ask?

 

[rinnie]

Protestants don’t bow down or pray to the Holy Bible.

Oh geeze, so now we Catholic’s bow down and pray to a Holy Bible. Come on. Please show your source for this. These petty arguments are getting quite tiresome.

Do you know it is a sin to bear false witness against ones neighbor?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Doctrine divides, love unites, how can we love all our Christian brothers and sisters as we love ourselves?

 

[schaick]

Oh geeze, so now we Catholic’s bow down and pray to a Holy Bible. Come on. Please show your source for this. These petty arguments are getting quite tiresome.

Do you know it is a sin to bear false witness against ones neighbor?

You need to go back and read the thread to see that it was a Catholic that accussed a non-catholic of bowing down to the Bible.

Now it is you that have made a false accussation against me!

 

[schaick]

Please cite the Scripture verse that you get this belief from, schaick.

And, as asked earlier, what Scripture verse that says that “Old Testament reference confirms Old Testament verses”?

How do we know that something is from GOD? This actually makes sense without the Bible verse - something occurring outside of the natural realm, rhythm of the world. If something can not be explained scientifically then some supernatural being must be the cause.

For the ??? time.

Eye witness accounts:
confirmed to us by those who heard him.

4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Hebrews 2
3…This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was** confirmed to us by those who heard him**. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Here is where Catholics always say-What about Nostradamus? I ask do we have any miracles performed by him to prove he was from GOD?
Did ***4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will./***B]?

2 Peter 1
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Paul identifies Luke as Scripture:
1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”****
Footnotes:
[a]1 Timothy 5:18 Deut. 25:4
1 Timothy 5:18 Luke 10:7

Did 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. testify about Paul? Let’s see - bright lights, voice heard, eye witnesses, blindness, outside witness, miraculous healing.

**All written down while those living could say - no that is not the way it happened, that is not what was said. ** [Which by the way is why tradtion not recorded until hundreds of years later after people are long gone can not be trusted. It can not be verified, validated.]

Paul being confirmed by writer of Peter:
**2 Peter3 **
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul explaining where Scripture is from-not from any denomination, part of church but:
1 Corinthians 2
12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

 

[schaick]

!!!

 

[schaick]

You need to go back and read the thread to see that it was a Catholic that accussed a non-catholic of bowing down to the Bible.

Now it is you that have made a false accussation against me!

Correction
questioned whether Christians were worshipping a kleenex box.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8444527#post8444527

Then accussed by another of praying to the Bible!

Ok, well then Protestants sing, preach, read the bible and in every Protestant church I have been in this is considered worship. My experience with Protestants is “praise and worship” is listening to the band, clapping hands, singing songs, hymns, moving the body, shouting amen, listening to someone preach, bowing heads, putting hands together…well don’t that get all…you guys do not bow down? I have seen that. Well now you do not pray to the Holy Bible…The One Holy Catholic Church moves their body, uses their voices, respects the Word and the Eucharist in Worship.

Let’s put it another way, humans use Visual, Auditory, Olfactory, Gustatory and Kinesthetic means to experience the world and to communicate. Worship is communicating to God. This is what God gave us. We use all those means. Protestants use some of those. They see, listen, use their voice and sometimes move.

You might want to consider reassessing what you call worship!

Accussing us of questionable worship?

At least we use our Visual, Auditory, Olfactory, Gustatory and Kinesthetic means to know that an inanimate object has not transformed into Jesus.

rinnie- Now it is you that have made a false accussation against me! What I pointed out is that it is the bowing down Scripture verses that have also been translated to worship verses that people use to say that Jesus was bowed down to-worshipped to prove Jesus was GOD. Jesus never corrected a person doing this.

 

[CopticChristian]

How do we know that something is from GOD? This actually makes sense without the Bible verse - something occurring outside of the natural realm, rhythm of the world. If something can not be explained scientifically then some supernatural being must be the cause.

For the ??? time.

Eye witness accounts:
confirmed to us by those who heard him.

4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Hebrews 2
3…This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was** confirmed to us by those who heard him**. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Here is where Catholics always say-What about Nostradamus? I ask do we have any miracles performed by him to prove he was from GOD?
Did ***4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will./***B]?

2 Peter 1
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Paul identifies Luke as Scripture:
1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”****
Footnotes:
[a]1 Timothy 5:18 Deut. 25:4
1 Timothy 5:18 Luke 10:7

Did 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. testify about Paul? Let’s see - bright lights, voice heard, eye witnesses, blindness, outside witness, miraculous healing.

**All written down while those living could say - no that is not the way it happened, that is not what was said. ** [Which by the way is why tradtion not recorded until hundreds of years later after people are long gone can not be trusted. It can not be verified, validated.]

Paul being confirmed by writer of Peter:
**2 Peter3 **
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Paul explaining where Scripture is from-not from any denomination, part of church but:
1 Corinthians 2
12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

That sounds good, however modern Scholarship shows that 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Colossians, Ephesian, and 2 Thessolonians were not written by Paul and were probably written in his name by followers after his death…succession? How do you justify these writings as being Scripture?

 

[CopticChristian]

Correction
questioned whether Christians were worshipping a kleenex box.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8444527#post8444527

Then accussed by another of praying to the Bible!

Accussing us of questionable worship?

At least we use our Visual, Auditory, Olfactory, Gustatory and Kinesthetic means to know that an inanimate object has not transformed into Jesus.

rinnie- Now it is you that have made a false accussation against me! What I pointed out is that it is the bowing down Scripture verses that have also been translated to worship verses that people use to say that Jesus was bowed down to-worshipped to prove Jesus was GOD. Jesus never corrected a person doing this.

Facts are not an accusation. Rethink this.

True you do use VAKOG, then the next thing to be aware of is as you use this information to transmit information to your mind…you filter it with generalizations, distortions and deletions…that fit your belief…that is the process we all use, some more than others.

I am not accusing you of false worship. If you do not worship with all your senses then that is your choice…if you offer your body to be burned on a pyre and have not love then you are as a gong or a clanging cymbal…

Worship anyway you want just know the difference. Just know that we do not necessarily assume that a prayer or song offered is worship as Protestant do when they wrongly believe we worship Mary, by imposing their 500 year old definition of worship into the world.

 

[PRmerger]

How do we know that something is from GOD? This actually makes sense without the Bible verse - something occurring outside of the natural realm, rhythm of the world. If something can not be explained scientifically then some supernatural being must be the cause.

Ok.

And how do you know that Philemon is theopneustos?

And what about this verse: “my breath is offensive to my wife.”

Who told you that “Saul went into a cave to relieve himself” is inspired?

The only way you know this is because of an OUTSIDE authority. An authority NOT FOUND in Scripture.

It was the authority of the Catholic Church, under the direction of the Holy Spirit of course, that discerned for you that Philemon is inspired. And that the OT books that state, “my breath is offensive to my wife” and “Saul went into a cave to relive himself” are to be included in your Bible.

[SIGN]You would not know it any other way, except by the authority of the CC.[/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

How do we know that something is from GOD? This actually makes sense without the Bible verse - something occurring outside of the natural realm, rhythm of the world. If something can not be explained scientifically then some supernatural being must be the cause.

By your definition, any ancient text that writes about miracles would be considered “from GOD.”

Thus, by your definition, the Koran, which emphasizes signs and miraculous events, would be considered inspired.

Incidentally, your definition of this criterion to determine whether something is from God is not found in a single page of the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

At least we use our Visual, Auditory, Olfactory, Gustatory and Kinesthetic means to know that an inanimate object has not transformed into Jesus.

This is a very, very dangerous criterion to use for your faith, schaick.

What Visual, Auditory, Olfactory, Gustatory and Kinesthetic means would you have used to determine whether Jesus was actually God, walking on this Earth. Did he look different than any other man walking around ancient Israel?

Did he have a halo?

Your senses would have told you that this man walking around Jerusalem was no different than any of the other Jews.

 

[CopticChristian]

How do we know that something is from GOD? This actually makes sense without the Bible verse - something occurring outside of the natural realm, rhythm of the world. If something can not be explained scientifically then some supernatural being must be the cause.

For the ??? time.

Eye witness accounts:
confirmed to us by those who heard him.

4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Hebrews 2
3…This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was** confirmed to us by those who heard him**. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Here is where Catholics always say-What about Nostradamus? I ask do we have any miracles performed by him to prove he was from GOD?
Did ***4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will./***B]?

2 Peter 1
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Paul identifies Luke as Scripture:
1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”****
Footnotes:
[a]1 Timothy 5:18 Deut. 25:4
1 Timothy 5:18 Luke 10:7

Did 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. testify about Paul? Let’s see - bright lights, voice heard, eye witnesses, blindness, outside witness, miraculous healing.

**All written down while those living could say - no that is not the way it happened, that is not what was said. ** [Which by the way is why tradtion not recorded until hundreds of years later after people are long gone can not be trusted. It can not be verified, validated.]

Paul being confirmed by writer of Peter:
**2 Peter3 **
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul explaining where Scripture is from-not from any denomination, part of church but:
1 Corinthians 2
12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Who wrote Hebrews and why is it in the New Testament?

 

[schaick]

By your definition, any ancient text that writes about miracles would be considered “from GOD.”

Thus, by your definition, the Koran, which emphasizes signs and miraculous events, would be considered inspired.

Incidentally, your definition of this criterion to determine whether something is from God is not found in a single page of the Bible.

If this is your arguement you have no leg to stand on.

Mohammad can not be proven to be from GOD. Mohammad performed no miracles nor fufilled or stated any prophecies. There were no eye witnesses to Gabriel visiting Mohammad, no voice heard, no dreams, etc. What was heard and seen are the symptoms of Temporal Lobe Seizure. We know from history that people caring for him thought he was having seizures at a young age.

The Quran contains no miracle or prophecies that were not taken originally from the Bible. The Quran has been shown to be historically and scientifically incorrect.