I think I know some people who

[js_cat3391]

Hi, I think I know some people who left the church and found a priest in the Eastern Orthodox church to do their annulments because no one in the Roman Catholic church would do the annulments. They then got married under the Eastern Rite, but they go to the Roman Catholic Masses and receive Holy Communion. Is sounded to me like they found a loophole, but I did not think there were loopholes with God. Is that sinful?
Thanks

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Hi, I think I know some people who left the church and found a priest in the Eastern Orthodox church to do their annulments because no one in the Roman Catholic church would do the annulments. They then got married under the Eastern Rite, but they go to the Roman Catholic Masses and receive Holy Communion. Is sounded to me like they found a loophole, but I did not think there were loopholes with God. Is that sinful?
Thanks

First the OP asks about the canonical legitimacy of the annulment in this case.

Then the OP ends up by asking if there are “loopholes with God.”

Hmm.

Does the OP really have a question?

 

[datritle]

the OP is asking a fair question, keep your hostility off the forum, brother. A good question indeed. It does sound like they just wanted to find a loophole. i am interested to hear some responses!

 

[bzkoss236]

First the OP asks about the canonical legitimacy of the annulment in this case.

Then the OP ends up by asking if there are “loopholes with God.”

Hmm.

Does the OP really have a question?

I think the underlying question(s) is(are), is it sinful to go to an Orthodox church to receive an annulment, get married in an Easter rite Catholic Church, but continue going to a Roman Catholic Church? and is an Orthodox annulment valid if a Catholic parish/diocese would not grant one?

 

[DexUK]

It sounds like deception might have been involved based on the OP’s description.

However, I don’t have anything like all the facts so I’m in no position to judge.

As for loopholes… God’s law is God’s law. He doesn’t do loopholes because He knows everything and that would imply that God made a mistake… Which we know can’t happen.

 

[Polycarp1]

Hi, I think I know some people who left the church and found a priest in the Eastern Orthodox church to do their annulments because no one in the Roman Catholic church would do the annulments. They then got married under the Eastern Rite, but they go to the Roman Catholic Masses and receive Holy Communion. Is sounded to me like they found a loophole, but I did not think there were loopholes with God. Is that sinful?
Thanks

I doubt if an annulment obtained by “fraudulent” or “deceptive means” by shopping around will carry a lot of weight with God. He reads our hearts and knows our true motives.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

the OP is asking a fair question, keep your hostility off the forum, brother. A good question indeed. It does sound like they just wanted to find a loophole. i am interested to hear some responses!

I meant no hostility. Sometimes people ask a question when really they are just making a statement. I thought the OP was making a statement, not really seeking an answer to a difficult question. The question about the licitness of an annulment in a case like this would, I think, be a very complicated matter, involving things like the intention of the person who got the annulment. To me, to begin to answer the annulment question, you would have to be a canon lawyer, and would have to know all the facts of the case, including the motives and intentions of the person who got the annulment. Since none of us are canon lawyers and since none of know the detailed facts of this case, what can any of us possibly say? As regards the question “are there loopholes with God,” the answer to that is easy. Of course NOT! Religious is not a game. Religion is not like the tax code, which people can get around if they have a good lawyer. Religion is a PERSON, a Holy Person, the Ultimate Person. So,…see my point?

 

[MaryT777]

We can’t judge the annulment and or validity of it in the RC church on a message board; it’s far too complicated.

Suffice it to say it’s a World Limping in sin and there are loopoholes for humans in more than this situation but as the above poster states “Not with God”
There are no loopholes with God.

Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[js_cat3391]

I think the underlying question(s) is(are), is it sinful to go to an Orthodox church to receive an annulment, get married in an Easter rite Catholic Church, but continue going to a Roman Catholic Church? and is an Orthodox annulment valid if a Catholic parish/diocese would not grant one?

Yes that is basically my question. I hope this explains it a little better.

I have sufficient cause to make this a possible scenario for which someone may offer a comment. Two divorced Roman Catholic’s (RC’s) want to get married. First, they shopped around and could not find an annulment. Second, they went to the schismatic Eastern Rite (ER) church and “received and annulment”, which implies that they left the RC and joined the ER. Third, they were married by the ER Catholic Church. Fourth, they go to mass and receive Holy Communion in the RC Church. Fifth, they have a public persona of being RC’s. Sixth, possibly there is no ER church in their town, so they have a “right” to go to RC church for their mass obligation; however, they are involved in the RC parish; they do not just go to mass; they are part of “building” the RC church. Seventh, maybe they rejoined the RC church after they got married, (but I do not know that).

The loophole statement was based on my interpretation of their possible thought process (convoluted as it may seem) that they thought they found a loophole or work around so they can still be RC’s.

Seems immoral on so many levels. My main reason for the question is that I am in a possible position of fraternal correction, and this is such a complex situation and I am up against someone who actually in their mind, logically thought of how this is valid. I dread this conversation as there seems to be so much garbage here.

Thanks for your help and answers thus far.

P.S. And thanks! I now know, without a doubt, there are no loopholes with God!

 

[Spider42]

From a Canon law perspective, if a tribunal under either rite has standing and renders a decision, then the decision is valid under both. There is no ‘loophole’ so-to-speak, it could have been a matter as simple as time. The Latin rite system is seriously taxed right now for a number of reasons.

I’d say better advice can be found in CCC 2478. Instead of presuming grievous public sin, approach as a true neighbor without rash judgement and discuss it. After all, at the Pauline Mass we all declare that we are sinners, unworthy to receive the Lord.

Edit: FWIW The Eastern Rite is, by and large, not technically in schism, but it is a pretty complicated subject.

 

[js_cat3391]

From a Canon law perspective, if a tribunal under either rite has standing and renders a decision, then the decision is valid under both. There is no ‘loophole’ so-to-speak, it could have been a matter as simple as time. The Latin rite system is seriously taxed right now for a number of reasons.

I’d say better advice can be found in CCC 2478. Instead of presuming grievous public sin, approach as a true neighbor without rash judgement and discuss it. After all, at the Pauline Mass we all declare that we are sinners, unworthy to receive the Lord.

Edit: FWIW The Eastern Rite is, by and large, not technically in schism, but it is a pretty complicated subject.

Are you saying that if the Latin Rite is booked up, technically you can “just go get” your sacraments and annulments in the Eastern Rite? I would imagine something like an annulment and subsequent marriage would not qualify for such an extreme action where as maybe the sacrament of penance or sunday mass would.

As far as the second part (ccc2478 and the Pauline Mass) of your statement, I do not know what it has to do with my question.

 

[bzkoss236]

From a Canon law perspective, if a tribunal under either rite has standing and renders a decision, then the decision is valid under both. There is no ‘loophole’ so-to-speak, it could have been a matter as simple as time. The Latin rite system is seriously taxed right now for a number of reasons.

I’d say better advice can be found in CCC 2478. Instead of presuming grievous public sin, approach as a true neighbor without rash judgement and discuss it. After all, at the Pauline Mass we all declare that we are sinners, unworthy to receive the Lord.

Edit: FWIW The Eastern Rite is, by and large, not technically in schism, but it is a pretty complicated subject.

This begs the question then for me, as it isn’t quite clear. The Eastern Orthodox Church is not the same as the Eastern rite Catholic Churches, while they may share some traditions, they aren’t the same body as the Orthodox are in schism with the Catholic Church. So to be clear (at least for my own sake)…

Was the annulment done in an Eastern rite Catholic Church, or an Eastern Orthodox Church?
Were they married in an Eastern rite Catholic Church, or an Eastern Orthodox Church?

 

[1ke]

Hi, I think I know some people who left the church and found a priest in the Eastern Orthodox church to do their annulments because no one in the Roman Catholic church would do the annulments.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches do not do annulments.

Do you mean an Eastern Rite Catholic Church? If so, I am not seeing what the issue is. Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are 100% Catholic and fully in communion with the the Pope.

They then got married under the Eastern Rite, but they go to the Roman Catholic Masses and receive Holy Communion. Is sounded to me like they found a loophole, but I did not think there were loopholes with God. Is that sinful?
Thanks

Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are 100% Catholic. It is possible that this couple transferrd rites, you really have no facts here to assume they are not in good standing with the Church.

 

[1ke]

Are you saying that if the Latin Rite is booked up, technically you can “just go get” your sacraments and annulments in the Eastern Rite?

You seem to be confused about the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. They are 100% Catholic and in communion with Rome. So, yes, you can receive the Sacraments there any time you wish.

I think you are confusing the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches with the Orthodox, who are not in full communion with Rome but do have valid sacraments.

Yes, it is possible to go through an Eastern Rite tribunal for a nullity case. One does not “just go get” a decree of nullity. One goes through the same process regardless of which tribunal handles the case. Which tribunals may handle a case is governed by Canon Law.

 

[Joe_5859]

Listen to 1ke.

I wouldn’t assume that you are in a position to offer fraternal correction (even assuming that fraternal correction is needed in this case, which to me is not at all obvious).

The Old Catholic Encyclopedia gives a few guidelines for offering fraternal correction:

• the delinquency to be corrected or prevented is a grievous one;
• there is no good reason to believe that the sinner will adequately provide for himself;
• there is a well-founded expectation that the admonition will be heeded;
• there is no one else just as well fitted for this work of Christian charity and likely to undertake it;
• there is no special trouble or disadvantage accruing to the reformer as a result of his zeal.

Please talk to your priest before attempting to insert yourself into this couple’s business. He is far more “well fitted for this work.”

But again, there doesn’t seem to be much evidence to support that this is an issue in need of correction.

 

[js_cat3391]

Wow, you guys are knowledgeable. thanks. It is the Eastern Rite not the Eastern Orthodox. I made a mistake. I had no idea. That is why I wanted to ask others first. That explains a lot on this issue, but there are still two other issues that started this whole thing. I think the advice to talk to a priest is a good idea. I want to put this to bed and get my conscience off the hook.