I think I'm becoming agnostic

[starchick21]

Some background on me: I’m a 20-year-old female college student who was raised Catholic by immigrant parents (Middle Eastern). Faith has always been a huge part of my family’s life. I grew up going to church every Sunday, receiving the sacraments, etc. The whole drill. I used to be so carefree, and never once questioned God’s existence until two years ago when I was a freshman in college. A girl I’d gone to high school with had lost her sister in a freak accident, and it really made me start thinking about my own mortality. I just really started thinking, and asking questions along the lines of, “What if this is it? What if there’s no afterlife?”

It’s been two years, and I’m still struggling with all of this. I want to believe so badly. I love Jesus and I love my church community, but if God exists, why does he have to hide himself? My faith is just constantly wavering. On the one hand, there is no tangible evidence for any of this, but at the same time, how can something (i.e., the universe) come from nothing? As far as God’s existence is concerned, no matter how much I pray and go through the motions, I just can’t seem to know for sure. And I wish I knew, so I could finally be at peace. This has been eating away at me for two years now, and I think about it every single day. It makes me miserable. If I were to walk away from it all, I’d be risking going to hell if it turns out God exists. But if he doesn’t, then what am I even doing?

Sorry for rambling, but I just really needed to let this all out. I’m so scared and confused. I know I could never be an atheist (I don’t want to rule anything out), but what am I now? An agnostic Catholic? Maybe, since I still go to church and everything. An agnostic theist? Just a plain old agnostic, albeit a soft one? Any advice? When I ask my priest, parents, and other fellow Christians, they just tell me to pray and have faith. Like I haven’t tried. So what do y’all have to say? Thanks for taking the time to read this!

 

[joeybaggz]

but if God exists, why does he have to hide himself?

Starchick

Congratulations, you’ve hit the age where we all start to ask the questions you are asking. Your question, “What am I now - an agnostic catholic.” No, you are a normal young adult asking normal young adult questions.

As to answers to some of your questions - honestly, I could write a book. Only thing is, thousands have already been written. The best one though has been around for over 1600 years. It is called the Bible, and in it, if you listen to the writers, you will find your answers. God, through His Word, His Son, and His Son’s church, have revealed everything needed for salvation and peace and joy in life. He’s not hiding; he’s knocking on the door to your heart. Just open it to Him.

Your question; “what if there is no afterlife?” Well, Jesus said there is when he said to the disciples, “I go to prepare a place for you.” That’s good enough for me. Good enought for you?

Another thing, if you pray, go to Mass, read to learn more, you are not just going through the motions. You are seeking and He once said, “Seek and you shall find.”

One thing you might keep in mind. The greatest thinker in the history of the church is said to be Thomas Aquinas. Thomas wrote much about creation, God and His relationship with man, man and his relationship with God, and a multitude of other topics. But when Thomas sat down to write about the nature and essence of God, who God was, where did he originate, he put his pen down and stopped writing. Thomas died at peace with most, if not all his questions answered, because at that juncture on realizing the finite mind could never understand the infinite, Thomas chose faith.

Again, you are not going through the motions, you are seeking answers we all ask. We’ve all been there. Remember Jesus’ most often spoken words; “fear not.” - and have patience.

Shalom

 

[PluniaZ]

That is about the age when I started to seriously question my faith … and then my lack of faith. Jesus said, “Seek, and ye shall find” and that is my advice to you. Seek Jesus in the Catholic Church, at Mass, in the confessional, in the teachings of the Pope, in your neighbor, in the Bible, in your prayers when you wake up and before you go to bed. And you will find him.

And it is ok to investigate what others have to say: atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, hedonists. Just remember that Jesus has the best advice for testing anyone’s claims: you will know them by their fruit.

After my own years of searching, I am slowly beginning to understand that God may have made Himself invisible to our physical senses because He wants us to know him with our hearts.

 

[fred_conty]

There have been others asking this same question from time to time.
The right answer depends on the person themselves. Because what satisfies one is not always going to do it for another. It is a matter of touching the right thoughts for that person.

I believe what Jesus said is true, “if you don’t believe me then believe what I do.” That is, his miracles. Just read the Gospels and read what he did. And if he did it just to fool people, then it seems to me he went to a lot of trouble for nothing since he himself got nothing out of it. Just read his miracles … quite impressive.

Then again, read the lives of the saints and see the miracles they pulled off … quite impressive, and what impressive lives they led. And there were literally thousands of them, among which were St Francis, St Teresa, St Dominic, and so on. Great people who did great things all for Christ.

And there is also our beloved mother Mary who from time to time comes to pay her regards and encouragement to us. And her special place of Lourdes still gives witness to her by miracles of healing both body and soul. Her special presences to us reveal not only the fact of her son, but the love of all her children still here on earth.

I’m sure if you continue in your search you will confirm your faith in the only one who really loves you all the time for who you are and has a special place in his sacred heart just for you.

 

[MaryT777]

starchick21;14404274:

but if God exists, why does he have to hide himself?

Starchick

Congratulations, you’ve hit the age where we all start to ask the questions you are asking. Your question, “What am I now - an agnostic catholic.” No, you are a normal young adult asking normal young adult questions.

As to answers to some of your questions - honestly, I could write a book. Only thing is, thousands have already been written. The best one though has been around for over 1600 years. It is called the Bible, and in it, if you listen to the writers, you will find your answers. God, through His Word, His Son, and His Son’s church, have revealed everything needed for salvation and peace and joy in life. He’s not hiding; he’s knocking on the door to your heart. Just open it to Him.

Your question; “what if there is no afterlife?” Well, Jesus said there is when he said to the disciples, “I go to prepare a place for you.” That’s good enough for me. Good enought for you?

Another thing, if you pray, go to Mass, read to learn more, you are not just going through the motions. You are seeking and He once said, “Seek and you shall find.”

One thing you might keep in mind. The greatest thinker in the history of the church is said to be Thomas Aquinas. Thomas wrote much about creation, God and His relationship with man, man and his relationship with God, and a multitude of other topics. But when Thomas sat down to write about the nature and essence of God, who God was, where did he originate, he put his pen down and stopped writing. Thomas died at peace with most, if not all his questions answered, because at that juncture on realizing the finite mind could never understand the infinite, Thomas chose faith.

Again, you are not going through the motions, you are seeking answers we all ask. We’ve all been there. Remember Jesus’ most often spoken words; “fear not.” - and have patience.

Shalom

This is so well said. Both my college aged daughters are asking the same types of questions you are asking with the same struggles. It’s like “Deja Vu” all over again from the days I was in college as well.

I will pray for you.

Mary.

 

[Irishmom2]

I just really started thinking, and asking questions along the lines of, “What if this is it? What if there’s no afterlife?”

If I were to walk away from it all, I’d be risking going to hell if it turns out God exists. But if he doesn’t, then what am I even doing?

If there were no afterlife, you would have lead your life in such a way that you would never be ashamed of how you lived it. For some people, that is enough.

It seems to me that your questions arose from the death of your friends sister. You seem to have had the typical “why does God allow bad things to happen” moment and haven’t been able to find an answer to that. There are many threads here on CAF about that question. Sometimes the answer is not what people want to hear.

For myself, (and I am way older than you ) I have learned that it is of no use to ask why God allows things to happen, or why this person has this illness, or why this person succeeds and others do not etc. We cannot begin to understand the **why **of God. We can however trust that He is Lord of **all **and trust in His will for us.

Remember that God will always be there, waiting for you.

 

[josh987654321]

.

Have you read the Gospels before, just picked up and read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? If not, Id recommend that.

“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” - C.S. Lewis

Id also like to share with you the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, to reinforce the truth of the real presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano -
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano
catholicleader.com.au/analysis/the-eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano

The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano is scientifically verified, approved by the Church, and still on display to this very day.

And I hope you don’t mind if I share the following arguments which have resonated with me -

I believe to follow the concept of a purely material universe to it’s logical conclusion, pulls the rug out from under the New Atheists. As John Lennox say’s, If as they claim, there is nothing in the universe except matter and energy, some of which blindly and randomly evolved into the human mind, then how can we rely on our minds in the first place to arrive at this conclusion? Our minds are themselves, according to this Darwinian view, mere random purposeless movements of atoms, unable to recognize truth, or beauty, or goodness, to know anything, or to do science for that matter.

And yet other scientists of undisputed intellectual stature with diametrically opposed views concur that, ‘The reason why what is in my little mind can understand a bit of what is out there is because both of them are traceable back to the same grand designer.’

C.S. Lewis I believe also explains it very well.

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” - C.S. Lewis

“The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words true or false.” - C.S. Lewis

And I believe John Lennox also explains it well.

“The very fact that we do science, means we believe that the universe is rationally intelligible. Why does a scientist believe it is rationally intelligible? Atheism tells us that the human mind is the human brain and it’s the end product of a mindless unguided process, why should I believe anything it tells me if that’s the case? Whereas theism tells me that there is intelligence behind the universe and behind the human mind which fits perfectly with science. In fact the rise of science in the 16th and 17th century came about because people expected law in nature, because they believed in the Law giver (God). So science and faith in God fit perfectly together.” - John Lennox

“I believe in God because I believe in free will. If all we are is matter, then all our actions are due to the laws of physics and random movements of particles. The concept of an immaterial soul allows for the possibility of free will. That’s what really allowed me to grab on to faith in God. I made the decision to decide that I had free will. If I am wrong, then nothing really matters and I can’t control my thoughts and ideas anyway.”

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Extract from the book 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis:

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?

A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too–for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense.

Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe, we should never have know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning.

Extract from John Lennox's book 'God's Undertaker':

In some quarters the very success of science has also lead to the idea that, because we can understand the mechanisms of the universe without bringing in God, we can safety conclude that there was no God who designed and created the universe in the first place.

However, such reasoning involves a logical fallacy, which we can illustrate as follows.

Take a Ford motor car. It is conceivable that someone from a remote part of the world, who was seeing one for the first time and who knew nothing about modern engineering, might imagine that there is a god (Mr Ford) inside the engine, making it go. He might further imagine that when the engine ran sweetly it was because Mr Ford liked him, and when it refused to go it was because Mr Ford disliked him. Of Course, if he were subsequently to study engineering and take the engine to pieces, he would discover that there is no Mr Ford inside it. neither would it take much intelligence for him to see that he did not need to introduce Mr Ford as an explanation for it’s working.

His Grasp of the impersonal principals of internal combustion would be altogether enough to explain how the engine works. So far, so good.

But if he then decided that his understanding of the principals of how the engine works made it impossible to believe in the existence of Mr Ford who designed the engine in the first place, this would be patently false - in philosophical terminology he would be committing a category mistake. Had there never been a Mr Ford to design the mechanisms, none would exist for him to understand.

It is likewise a category mistake to suppose that our understanding of the impersonal principals according to which the universe works makes it either unnecessary or impossible to believe in the existence of a personal creator who designed, made, and upholds the universe. In other words, we should not confuse the mechanisms of the universe with either it’s cause or it’s upholder.

The basic issue here is that those of a scientific turn of mind like Atkins and Dawkins fail to distinguish between mechanism and agency.

When Sir Isaac Newton discovered the universal law of gravitation he did not say, “I have discovered a mechanism that accounts for planetary motion, therefore there is no agent God who designed it.” Quite the opposite, precisely because he understood how it worked, he was moved to increased admiration for the God who had designed it that way.

Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don’t wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Why then does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe. - Peter Kreeft

"Although I was once sharply critical of the argument to design, I have since come to see that, when correctly formatted, this argument constitutes a persuasive case for the existence of God.” - Anthony Flew

I hope some of this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Flagstone]

And it is ok to investigate what others have to say: atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, hedonists. Just remember that Jesus has the best advice for testing anyone’s claims: you will know them by their fruit.

There is good and bad among all these groups(except hedonists). Just as there is good and bad among Christians. That would seem to me that the type of religion or lack thereof is irrelevant.

 

[peter26]

There is good and bad among all these groups(except hedonists). Just as there is good and bad among Christians. That would seem to me that the type of religion or lack thereof is irrelevant.

Well logically speaking only one religion can be right. Unless at least you embrace a sort of pagan pantheism and believe in a whole collection of gods from different traditions. Which I imagine would be confusing. If only one religion then can be right, the type is very relevant.

 

[PluniaZ]

There is good and bad among all these groups(except hedonists). Just as there is good and bad among Christians. That would seem to me that the type of religion or lack thereof is irrelevant.

Jesus says a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. My own experience in life suggests that Jesus is right. I think we need to seek out the truth each day, every day, for the rest of our lives. Jesus promises that if we do, we will find the truth.

 

[josh987654321]

Jesus says a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. My own experience in life suggests that Jesus is right. I think we need to seek out the truth each day, every day, for the rest of our lives. Jesus promises that if we do, we will find the truth.

Nevertheless, people can always point to other people who have called themselves Christians and have failed in some way or done something bad, Which is why I prefer St Augustine’s* “Never judge a philosophy by it’s abuse”*

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Lea101]

Fr mike schmitz once said that God is so hidden because if He wasn’t, WE would hide because of our shame. It would be difficult to have a proper relationship with him. I don’t know how you feel about that, but it’s worth thinking about.

 

[Techno2000]

It’s been two years, and I’m still struggling with all of this. I want to believe so badly. I love Jesus and I love my church community, but if God exists, why does he have to hide himself?

God has to let Nature run its course, otherwise man would not have free will.

 

[psalm90]

Some background on me: I’m a 20-year-old female college student who was raised Catholic by immigrant parents (Middle Eastern). Faith has always been a huge part of my family’s life. I grew up going to church every Sunday, receiving the sacraments, etc. The whole drill. I used to be so carefree, and never once questioned God’s existence until two years ago when I was a freshman in college. A girl I’d gone to high school with had lost her sister in a freak accident, and it really made me start thinking about my own mortality. I just really started thinking, and asking questions along the lines of, “What if this is it? What if there’s no afterlife?”

It’s been two years, and I’m still struggling with all of this. I want to believe so badly. I love Jesus and I love my church community, but if God exists, why does he have to hide himself? My faith is just constantly wavering. On the one hand, there is no tangible evidence for any of this, but at the same time, how can something (i.e., the universe) come from nothing? As far as God’s existence is concerned, no matter how much I pray and go through the motions, I just can’t seem to know for sure. And I wish I knew, so I could finally be at peace. This has been eating away at me for two years now, and I think about it every single day. It makes me miserable. If I were to walk away from it all, I’d be risking going to hell if it turns out God exists. But if he doesn’t, then what am I even doing?

Sorry for rambling, but I just really needed to let this all out. I’m so scared and confused. I know I could never be an atheist (I don’t want to rule anything out), but what am I now? An agnostic Catholic? Maybe, since I still go to church and everything. An agnostic theist? Just a plain old agnostic, albeit a soft one? Any advice? When I ask my priest, parents, and other fellow Christians, they just tell me to pray and have faith. Like I haven’t tried. So what do y’all have to say? Thanks for taking the time to read this!

I’ve read a couple of the responses. What they suggest, in general, is that as we mature, we start to ask questions, and this is normal and healthy, IF you know where to look for the answers.

Fr. John Riccardo of Detroit gives a meditation for the 5th Joyful Mystery, the finding of Jesus in the Temple, something like this: Jesus’ parents asked him, why are you doing this to us? (making them search for Him). The question points directly to the answer, that Jesus does that with us, too. He makes us search for Him.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Your salvation is the most important thing in your life. Your faith is not dropped on you as if you found a $20 bill in the street. There it is, that’s it. The Christian Life is a vocation, a calling. Ephesians 1:3 says that we have been given all spiritual gifts. We need to use these and exercise these in order to grow.

Faith and action are linked. Don’t just slouch back and say, when I feel like I have faith then I will act. Why do you have faith in flying in an airplane? It’s because some have told you its safe and you look around to convince yourself that it is safe. Even that faith requires some work.

Believing in God is believing in an absolute truth. I believe in absolute truths – there is a right and there is a wrong. That is truth and it leads me to the absolute and ultimate truth of God. Agnosticism is an uncertainty about truth and absolutes. Why would anyone be uncertain about there being or not being truths and absolutes?

SCIENCE proves to us that a fertilized human egg is a human being. There is absolutely no doubt and little dispute about that. But, the misplaced belief in science leads a lot of people to untruth, that it is right to destroy an embryo. People use their minds to deceive themselves about the humanity of an embryo. Don’t fall into the trap of muddy, unclear thinking about life, truth, and God. We are surrounded by atheistic influences and thinking. Recently, President Obama’s farewell address was loaded with relativist thinking, instead of thinking about what is absolutely right and wrong. He suggested that what is right and wrong is merely the result of the democratic process, that it is only might and power that determines what is right and wrong.

We have the advantage of divine revelation in the Bible and through the Church of what is true and worthy of belief. It should not be the result of the most recent commercial or program that you saw on TV.

A lot of liberal and progressive people who teach college want to make you an atheist like them. Don’t throw yourself down to worship them.

 

[Technoforever84]

Starchick,

I like the other responses here but let me tell you my experiences which was similar:

I was once just like you but much worse. Instead of turning Agnostic, I turned straight up atheist and became a hardcore Leninist-Marxist, which is a the state ideology of my former country and it still is today. I was also raised Catholic and brought up in a Catholic family. It was agnosticism at first but that turn into atheism very quickly, which means it took me 4 months. Also, when you become atheist, it is extremely hard to come back to the Catholic faith. It took me almost a decade and very drastic miracles for me to return to Catholicism and God. Without God’s intervention in my life, I would’ve been atheist my entire life. Also, when you become atheist, you start to sin a lot. Since you believe there is no God, you can easily ignore morality and can tend to think bad stuff easily. Also you are more vulnerable to demonic influences. Also you are vulnerable to becoming a terrible person. Back then, I rebelled against my parents and hated Christianity and the Catholic Church. I committed plenty of mortal sins too.

As a former hardcore atheist, my most important suggestion is to start by discussing with people who have experience miracles from God and those who are really deep into the faith like priests. Listen to people who actually have their prayers answered and some of their testimonies. These will give you proof for sure God exists. After this pray often and try your best to follow God by reading the Bible. Start with reading verses about strengthening your faith and improving your life. Do not just read it but understand it too. If there is something you can’t understand in the Bible, you can ask here. Understanding the Bible is the key. It might not be apparent at first, but you will eventually feel God’s presence. You really have to put your best effort in this. You will feel proof and evidence if you try enough, really. I was very stubborn before and nothing convinces me of God’s existences. I was much more skeptical than you. If you are lucky, you might hear God speak through your mind and experience a miracle from him. If these happens, there is no doubt that God exist. Also, there are a few photographed pictures and even video recordings that captured angels. And if you read some news articles, there are few stories of cancer disappearing from a few people with no medical explanations.

In my opinion, there are plenty of evidence and proof is out there. Also, God is not hiding himself, plenty people are saved by him. If you pray, read and understand the Bible, and not give up on God, you will feel God’s love for you.

Also, I just got back to Catholicism very recently myself and I’m a college student myself. You can private message me if you want more help from me. And please, don’t end up like me from before. Its a path I want no one to experience.

 

[Jomann]

God hides (in a certain way) from us because free will needs total privacy. Because there’s no free will between a marble castle and a piece of chalk. That’s why our thoughts are locked in perfect privacy too.

If you deny God so you are left with only nihilism. There’s no other possibility without God. Nihilism has a lot of logical problems like infinite regression.

If your faith is shaking consider the Pascal’s wager.

Catholicism has a tremendous internal consistency. This alone is a proof about something being true.

Agnosticism is a contradiction in itself. If your main idea is “I know nothing” so why and how does you know this very statement?