C
Contarini
Guest
What does energy have to do with it? Mormons put a lot of energy into their religion too. Does that mean that you recognize them as fully and authentically Christian?
Edwin
- Status
Edwin
S
StMarkEofE
Guest
My argument is that the Nation of Islam should be considered part of worldwide Islam that is all. I would like to know if someone lurking on this website could comment on the issue of the validity of Nation of Islam as truly Muslim.
StMarkEofE
M
meedo
Guest
Nation of Islam is not Islam
Its a racist movement , sort of black nationalism mixed with their understanding of islam in order to empower themselves.
They are racist . Muslims arent.
Malcox - X reverted to Orthodox Islam after he made pilgrimage and saw Muslims from all colors mix togeather.
Peace
Its a racist movement , sort of black nationalism mixed with their understanding of islam in order to empower themselves.
They are racist . Muslims arent.
Malcox - X reverted to Orthodox Islam after he made pilgrimage and saw Muslims from all colors mix togeather.
Peace
C
Contarini
Guest
Are you willing to admit that Mormons are part of worldwide Christianity?
Edwin
M
meedo
Guest
Brother Joe,
why was Godlover suspended?
Can he still post ? Can i pm him and he pm me back ?
Thanks
why was Godlover suspended?
Can he still post ? Can i pm him and he pm me back ?
Thanks
R
Richard_Mark
Guest
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium* Animos* (# 2), Jan. 6, 1928:
“Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.”
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all… They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”
St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: “The evil [of Islam] was introduced by some Mahometan caicizes (ministers of religion), who came from Mecca in Arabia, where the accursed body of Mahomet is honored with great superstition.”
St. Francis of Assisi (+ c. 1210): [To the Muslims] “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us.”
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:
“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”
The above quotes were taken from www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com
My comment:
The work of any true Catholic should be to convert Muslims from thier false faith and bring them into the Catholic Church. Without Christ these people are lost…not so much in this world, but for all eternity. Let us turn from trying to just live in peace on this earth (which is noble) and strive for the real work of the Church, the salvation of souls through Christ alone.
C
Convert68
Guest
This discussion about whether Nation of Islam and terrorist Islamists are real Muslims is pointless. Islam has no point of authority except the Koran. There is no pope, no Orthdodox patriarchs, church councils - nothing to define who is orthodox, heretical, schismatic. It is a “scripture only” religion. So anyone who says someone is not a true Muslim is only expressing a personal opinion which has no authority. So the opinion of Osama bin Laden and Malcolm X as to what is true Islam is as good and valid as that of liberal Muslim scholars at western universities.
J
jcaz
Guest
Well, where to begin.
I will limit this reply to save time, as replying to all of the false statements would take too long.
Allaah says in the Quraan:
So when we say that suicide is haraam (not allowed), we are not expressing an opinion. Rather, we are stating the Islamic fact that Allaah says in the Quraan where He states that those who commit suicide will be in the Hellfire forever.
Now on the contrary, religions who do not follow their book, who throw the “book teachings” out the window in favor of some “infallible” man, they do not have this luxury. Everything needs to be examined and then this “infallible” person makes an “infallible” decision.
I will limit this reply to save time, as replying to all of the false statements would take too long.
Wrong. The point of authority is the Quraan, the Sunnah (statements, teachings, actions, and approvals of Muhammad, sallaallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam), and the understanding of the companions in all matters.
There is no “infallible” person who can change the relgion of Allaah to suit the desires of the people. There are no church councils that are needed to figure out the theology of Islaam, as because it is a TRUE “book religion”, as you called it, there is no need for individuals to make their own theologies. ALL understanding comes from the Quraan and Sunnah.
Allaah says in the Quraan:
Islaam is perfect and in no need of someone to change it.
Wrong. If a Muslim is going around saying, for example, that suicide bombings are permissible, one who refutes this claim, with evidence, is not “expressing a personal opinion” as you stated. Rather, because Islaam is, as you called it, a “book religion”, we turn everything back to the book of Allaah and the sunnah of His Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam.
So when we say that suicide is haraam (not allowed), we are not expressing an opinion. Rather, we are stating the Islamic fact that Allaah says in the Quraan where He states that those who commit suicide will be in the Hellfire forever.
Now on the contrary, religions who do not follow their book, who throw the “book teachings” out the window in favor of some “infallible” man, they do not have this luxury. Everything needs to be examined and then this “infallible” person makes an “infallible” decision.
Wrong again. There is only one true Islaam. The opinions of Osama or some ignorant “western, liberal Muslim ‘scholar’” does not matter. The only thing that matters is the statements of Allaah and the sunnah of His messenger Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam. This is why when Muslims discuss a topic, we always ask, where is the evidence, where is your evidence. Show me the verse in the Quraan. Show me the hadeeth. Because this is our way. The Quraan and the ahaadeeth are our way. Our way is not blind following some “infallible” man or some “infallible” set of councils.
Yeah right. That’s why I hesitate in reading and then responding to posts!
C
Contarini
Guest
This is completely illogical. There are structures of authority other than those recognized by hyper-papalist Catholics such as you seem to be. (I use that offensive term to distinguish you from the majority of thoughtful Catholics who have far deeper concepts of authority.) Sunni Islam (like Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Orthodox Judaism) has functioned for centuries with a consensus-based model of authority. If it doesn’t make sense to you, that’s your problem, because it obviously works well enough to suit them.
Edwin
J
jcaz
Guest
“Your argument.” Wwell, what is your argument based on? The fact that they call themselves Muslims? So if all Muslims started calling themselves catholics, while retaining our Islamic beliefs, would that make us Catholic?
So be not confused by their choice to use the word “Islam” as part of their religious name, as their core beliefs are far from Islaam.
Here’s a good site explaining the false beliefs of the N of I
Simple. Because the are NOT followers of Muhammad. They are not only not followers of Muhammad, but they are not even followers of the Quraan.
Hope this helps.
R
r.gonzales
Guest
the n.o.i. hold beliefs that take them out of the fold of islam. they believe that Allah come to earth in the form of w. fard muhammad (similar to christians who believe that Allah came to earth in the form of jesus the messiah). this belief in and of itself makes them unbelievers, outside the fold of islam. add to this their belief that elijah muhammad was a prophet and messenger sent by Allah. this belief, also in and of itself makes them unbelievers, outside the fold of islam. then aside from this, they hold many other beliefs contradictory to the foundational beliefs and tenets of islam.
the n.o.i. are not muslims, full stop.
as for usaamah bin laadin and other muslim extremists, they are muslims with deviant beliefs and understandings. true islamic beliefs are those which find their basis in the legislative texts, explained the way the companions of muhammad and their students from the first couple generations of islam. these extremist and deviant muslims follow beliefs contradictory to the proper understandings of the legislative texts, but that in and of itself does not expell them outside the fold of islam, unless it is accompanied with certain factors (which i will not get into here due to the extensive discussion surrounding it).
as for this issue concerning islam’s authority, as my brother jcaz has mentioned, islam’s authority is the Allah’s book (the Quran) and the authentic sunnah (prophet muhammad’s way and tradition). the Quran also tells us to obey those in authority over us, i.e., the rulers of the muslims, in that which does not entail disobedience to Allah and His messenger muhammad. it also instructs us to ask the people of sound and correct islamic knowledge when we do not have knowledge of certain issues. these are the muslims’ authorities - first and foremost, the book of Allah and the sunnah of His messenger. then, the rulers and the bonafide scholars of islam. and with respect to these last two, they are bound by the first two. so anything that comes from them that is in contradiction with the first two, then it is rejected and not obeyed.
the n.o.i. are not muslims, full stop.
as for usaamah bin laadin and other muslim extremists, they are muslims with deviant beliefs and understandings. true islamic beliefs are those which find their basis in the legislative texts, explained the way the companions of muhammad and their students from the first couple generations of islam. these extremist and deviant muslims follow beliefs contradictory to the proper understandings of the legislative texts, but that in and of itself does not expell them outside the fold of islam, unless it is accompanied with certain factors (which i will not get into here due to the extensive discussion surrounding it).
as for this issue concerning islam’s authority, as my brother jcaz has mentioned, islam’s authority is the Allah’s book (the Quran) and the authentic sunnah (prophet muhammad’s way and tradition). the Quran also tells us to obey those in authority over us, i.e., the rulers of the muslims, in that which does not entail disobedience to Allah and His messenger muhammad. it also instructs us to ask the people of sound and correct islamic knowledge when we do not have knowledge of certain issues. these are the muslims’ authorities - first and foremost, the book of Allah and the sunnah of His messenger. then, the rulers and the bonafide scholars of islam. and with respect to these last two, they are bound by the first two. so anything that comes from them that is in contradiction with the first two, then it is rejected and not obeyed.
H
hawk
Guest
Whilst what Jcaz says is somewhat true, it does not paint the whole picture.
The Quran cannot stand by itself, to understand it, you need to know the Bible.
Also the concepts and rules of Tawheed did not evolve comepletely till about 150 years after Mohammed, if I am not mistaken.
In fact that is why the gates of ijtihad supposedly only closed 300 years or so after the death of the prophet.
Once again, there is no such thing as Islam, however there are many sects within a framework called islam.
What verse would this be?
We dont follow a book, but the Holy Spirit of the Living God.
Ofcourse you do realise that we dont see Mohammed as a prophet.
L
LtTony
Guest
That’s the way I always understood it. And many historians have implied that is the reason Malcom X was assassinated.
Jim
S
StMarkEofE
Guest
jcaz said:
Well, I guess I just got an education on Nation of Islam.
Thanks for the information.
StMarkEofE
C
Convert68
Guest
I guess I was wrong. You have made yourself and your interpretation of Quraan and Sunnah the final authority in Islam. Unfortunately no book and no law can interpret itself. Even our papal pronouncements have been found to mean different things to different Catholics. It’s not easy but I still say that Osama bin Laden, Malcolm X and the Islamic equivalents of the United Church of Canada (Methodist and the like to Americans) are just as correct in their interpretations of Quraan and Sunnah. Islam is a protestant-like religion in which every man and woman is an equal pope. Why the different factions: Sunni, Shiite, Wahabbi, Ismaili? Obviously all these people see things differently.
C
Convert68
Guest
Eastern Orthodoxy is an episcopal religion with bishops and councils of bishops exercising authority in much the same way that bishops and ecumenical councils do in the Roman Catholic Church. Osama bin Laden considers himself a Sunni Moslem as do many of the suicide bombers attacking Israel. There is obviously considerable disagreement and not consensus among Sunni Moslems regarding Islamist terrorism or are you saying that they all agree with the terrorists?
C
Contarini
Guest
I made the comparison with Orthodoxy because the Orthodox are often slow in deciding issues that arise, and it isn’t always clear at a given moment who is authentically Orthodox and who isn’t, but eventually things straighten themselves out. Obviously this has its disadvantages, and right now we non-Muslims have particular reason to feel those disadvantages. But the fact is that numerous Muslim leaders (including the sheik of the Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, one of the most respected in Sunni Islam) have condemned Bin Laden’s tactics. Those tactics also go against traditional Islamic rules about the conduct of warfare, as I understand them. So I think there is a consensus against him and the consensus is being articulated, though naturally we wish it was articulated sharper and faster.
It’s legitimate to say that Sunni Islam doesn’t have centralized authority and that this has disadvantages (though I think it has advantages as well). But it’s flatly false to say that they have no authority structures and no means ot deciding what is legitimate and what isn’t. The more universally an opinion is held, the more in keeping with traditional schools of fiqh (Islamic law) it is, and the more it is affirmed by the Islamic scholars attached to the most prestigious mosques and institutions of learning, the more confidently one can say that it is the orthodox Sunni position.
That at least is how I understand the matter. I welcome correction from Muslims.
Edwin
It’s legitimate to say that Sunni Islam doesn’t have centralized authority and that this has disadvantages (though I think it has advantages as well). But it’s flatly false to say that they have no authority structures and no means ot deciding what is legitimate and what isn’t. The more universally an opinion is held, the more in keeping with traditional schools of fiqh (Islamic law) it is, and the more it is affirmed by the Islamic scholars attached to the most prestigious mosques and institutions of learning, the more confidently one can say that it is the orthodox Sunni position.
That at least is how I understand the matter. I welcome correction from Muslims.
Edwin
F
Faith101
Guest
People who are part of the Nation of Islam are NOT Muslim, there is no controversy amongst the Muslims here.
Malcolm X had originally been part of the Nation of Islam, until he sought the truth,…and became a muslim. its all in there in his biography
R
r.gonzales
Guest
not true at all.
shows how little you know about islam and its tenets.
who told you that the doors of ijtihaad are closed? they’re still wide open for scholars who are cabable of making it. again, shows just how little you know about islam.
now, you’re just talking out your behind again…
perhaps you should try reading the Quran from time to time and pay attetion to the actual verses rather than looking for things you can attack…
“o those who believed, do not eat your wealth between you in falsehood, except that it be a trade according to mutual consent among you. AND DO NOT KILL YOURSELVES. surely, Allah is merciful to you. and whoever does that out of enmity and out of oppression, then we will roast him in fire, and that is easy for Allah.” (4:29-30)
there are also numerous authentic hadeeths that prove what my brother jcaz has mentioned regarding the one who commits suicide.
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
There is no infallible authority in Christianity in the matter that you speak of, either. The Pope cannot contradict what is already revealed & believed by the Catholic Church and he cannot just go and change the religion as you say. Check the Vatican I documents, you won’t find a Christian authority with the power that you describe.
- Status