I think that protestants have taken the authority

[ConsciousCoward]

I feel like this thread is full of misunderstanding. The comparison between Bible-worship and Mary-worship holds true: as some Catholics elevate Mary to the level of God, so do some Protestants elevate the Bible to a level above where it belongs. However, look at it this way.

The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and considered by both the Catholic Church and Protestant churches to be the infallible word of God, transcribed by men. If that’s true, then any teaching, any doctrine or dogma, will align with the content of the Bible. If it doesn’t, then the teaching cannot possibly be correct. After all, if the teaching says something that goes against an infallible document that says something to the contrary, the teaching cannot be infallible.

That’s where saying the Bible has the final authority comes from. Beyond that, the difference between Catholic and Protestant thinking is reminiscent of the Jefferson/Hamilton conflict from early US History. Jefferson believed that the constitution should be interpreted narrowly, and if the Constitution didn’t explicitly give the government the right to do something, they didn’t have the right. He believed that everything the government needed was in the constitution. On the other hand, Alexander Hamilton believed that the Constitution should be interpreted loosely, and that if the Constitution didn’t explicitly prohibit the government from doing something, they had the right. He believed that not everything the government needed was in the constitution.

Obviously the metaphor isn’t perfect, and I’m not saying Catholics interpret the Bible loosely. However, like Hamilton, they believe that their base document doesn’t necessarily have everything they need. Like Jefferson, Protestants tend to believe a more strict/narrow interpretation of their base document, believing that everything they absolutely need is contained within.

I don’t really know what the point of the body of this post was, but the most important thing is that only a small minority of Protestants elevate the Bible itself to a god-like level, in much the same way that only a small minority of Catholics elevate Mary to the same level. The rest of the post was just detail.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I feel like this thread is full of misunderstanding. The comparison between Bible-worship and Mary-worship holds true: as some Catholics elevate Mary to the level of God, so do some Protestants elevate the Bible to a level above where it belongs. However, look at it this way.

The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and considered by both the Catholic Church and Protestant churches to be the infallible word of God, transcribed by men. If that’s true, then any teaching, any doctrine or dogma, will align with the content of the Bible. If it doesn’t, then the teaching cannot possibly be correct. After all, if the teaching says something that goes against an infallible document that says something to the contrary, the teaching cannot be infallible.

That’s where saying the Bible has the final authority comes from. Beyond that, the difference between Catholic and Protestant thinking is reminiscent of the Jefferson/Hamilton conflict from early US History. Jefferson believed that the constitution should be interpreted narrowly, and if the Constitution didn’t explicitly give the government the right to do something, they didn’t have the right. He believed that everything the government needed was in the constitution. On the other hand, Alexander Hamilton believed that the Constitution should be interpreted loosely, and that if the Constitution didn’t explicitly prohibit the government from doing something, they had the right. He believed that not everything the government needed was in the constitution.

Obviously the metaphor isn’t perfect, and I’m not saying Catholics interpret the Bible loosely. However, like Hamilton, they believe that their base document doesn’t necessarily have everything they need. Like Jefferson, Protestants tend to believe a more strict/narrow interpretation of their base document, believing that everything they absolutely need is contained within.

I don’t really know what the point of the body of this post was, but the most important thing is that only a small minority of Protestants elevate the Bible itself to a god-like level, in much the same way that only a small minority of Catholics elevate Mary to the same level. The rest of the post was just detail.

What you miss is the fact that the CC is found by Christ and He tought the Church it wasnt the Bible who tought her. Protestants on ther hand could not exist if the CC had not put the Book together. Protestants uses the Bible in substution for the Churhc that Jesus found.

Only the Church that Jesus found have the authority to teach and no other. THe Church is Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth. How do you explain this to the followers of protestantism?

 

[rtu25]

1 Tim 3:15
"... pillar and foundation of truth..."

 

[rtu25]

[Only the Church that Jesus found have the authority to teach and no other. THe Church is Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth. How do you explain this to the followers of protestantism?
[/QUOTE]



1 Tim 3:15

“… pillar and foundation of truth…”

furthermore:

(2 Pet 1:20-21,3:15-16). The Bible tells us that not everything Jesus said and did is recorded in Scripture

(John 21:25) and that we must also hold fast to oral tradition, the
preached Word of God (1 Cor 11:2, 1 Pet 1:25).

 

[rtu25]

printing press started:

Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press with replaceable/moveable wooden or metal letters in 1436 (completed by 1440). This method of printing can be credited not only for a revolution in the production of books, but also for fostering rapid development in the sciences, arts and religion through the transmission of texts.

It was there in 1440 that Johannes Gutenberg created his printing press, a hand press, in which ink was rolled over the raised surfaces of moveable hand-set block letters held within a wooden form and the form was then pressed against a sheet of paper.

source: inventors.about.com

… how can the the early christians been thought of the bible only, way back 1st to 10th century? hmmm…

 

[ConsciousCoward]

The thing is, a lot of Protestants understand that the Bible came from a council that happened far before the Reformation. That isn’t what’s being rejected. What’s being rejected is that the Catholic Chirch is still exactly the same as the church founded by Christ. For many of us, it seems impossible that an institution run by man could remain perfect, as many of us believe that men are inherently bad creatures. I know you believe that Christ meant that your church would be eternally perfect when he said “the gates of Hell shall not overcome it,” but bear in mind that we believe he was referring to the universal church, which breaks the boundaries between Catholic and Protestant.

The point being, in the things rejected by Protestants overall, I don’t think the origins of the Bible are among them.

 

[AnneTeresa]

This issue was the final impetus for my returning to the catholic church a year ago. (There were other issues that just didn’t sit right with me but this was the final straw.)

We were in a small group study (non-denom church) and were studying about the Bible. The person doing the discussion that week held up the bible over her head and we all had to do it because it was our sword (which is scriptural I know and we do it at mass at the Gospel, but this was very different).

I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable with this. During the discussion, I tried to explain that there is so much more than the bible, but it was not understood (granted, I didn’t know a good way to explain but I just KNEW something was very off).

The leader made very strong remarks about how the bible was all we needed, etc. But I knew there was a lack of depth in prayer at the same time.

When we read the verses in John about the Word, I really think they thought it was talking about the bible, not Jesus.

I couldn’t take it anymore. I was so uncomfortable. I started going back to the Catholic church then.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The thing is, a lot of Protestants understand that the Bible came from a council that happened far before the Reformation. That isn’t what’s being rejected. What’s being rejected is that the Catholic Chirch is still exactly the same as the church founded by Christ. For many of us, it seems impossible that an institution run by man could remain perfect, as many of us believe that men are inherently bad creatures. I know you believe that Christ meant that your church would be eternally perfect when he said “the gates of Hell shall not overcome it,” but bear in mind that we believe he was referring to the universal church, which breaks the boundaries between Catholic and Protestant.

The point being, in the things rejected by Protestants overall, I don’t think the origins of the Bible are among them.

Wow! where did Jesus said such a thing. where did you get idea that protestants come from God? how can a Kingdom fight against itself? the Kingdom of God is not divided.

the only man made churches are protestantism. they were not found by Christ but by men.

if you can not trust in the Church built by Christ, how do you trust in those built by men whic you belong to?

 

[wisdomseeker]

This issue was the final impetus for my returning to the catholic church a year ago. (There were other issues that just didn’t sit right with me but this was the final straw.)

We were in a small group study (non-denom church) and were studying about the Bible. The person doing the discussion that week held up the bible over her head and we all had to do it because it was our sword (which is scriptural I know and we do it at mass at the Gospel, but this was very different).

I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable with this. During the discussion, I tried to explain that there is so much more than the bible, but it was not understood (granted, I didn’t know a good way to explain but I just KNEW something was very off).

The leader made very strong remarks about how the bible was all we needed, etc. But I knew there was a lack of depth in prayer at the same time.

When we read the verses in John about the Word, I really think they thought it was talking about the bible, not Jesus.

I couldn’t take it anymore. I was so uncomfortable. I started going back to the Catholic church then.

 

[Rence]

from Jesus the Christ and gave to the Bible.
I see this when they insist that the Bible is the final authority. What do you think people?

Well, I can see both sides. I can see your thoughts on “Protestants have taken the authority from Jesus Christ and gave it to the Bible.” But I can also see the Protestant side which supports the words of Christ Himself and his hand-appointed Apostles and disciples as having higher authority than the rules and laws made up by the hierarchy of the early Church. They reject the Catechism as made-made and go to the Bible, their only source for what God said and did. So maybe they would say, “Catholics have taken the authority from Jesus Christ and gave it to the leader of their Church”. So I can understand both perspectives. If one doesn’t believe in the authority of the Church, they will not take the teachings of the Church over their own religion. I think that’s normal that they would think the same of Catholics, that Catholics think of them.

 

[PJM]

=rtu25;8588295][Only the Church that Jesus found have the authority to teach and no other. THe Church is Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth. How do you explain this to the followers of protestantism?

1 Tim 3:15

“… pillar and foundation of truth…”

furthermore:

(2 Pet 1:20-21,3:15-16). The Bible tells us that not everything Jesus said and did is recorded in Scripture

(John 21:25) and that we must also hold fast to oral tradition, the
preached Word of God (1 Cor 11:2, 1 Pet 1:25).
[/quote]

Consider this FACT:

God never ever [Yahweh or Christ] permitted belief in more than Him, and always ONLY what He God taught [Only one Set of Faith beliefs], and always ONLY One faith organization: The Hebrew Nation in tne OT and today’s CC in the NT.

**Psalms 127:1 **
“Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.”

Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

1Tim. 3: 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the [SINGULAR] household of God, which is the church [SINGULAR] of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth [SINGULAR]

**Eph.3: 9 to 12 **“And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

2 Peter 3: 14 –17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures”

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

**John 5: 37 ** "and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men. [Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. ***So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” ***

**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

CHECK OUT MY BLOG, you’ll find alot of good stuff:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

 

[wisdomseeker]

The thing is, a lot of Protestants understand that the Bible came from a council that happened far before the Reformation. That isn’t what’s being rejected. What’s being rejected is that the Catholic Chirch is still exactly the same as the church founded by Christ. For many of us, it seems impossible that an institution run by man could remain perfect, as many of us believe that men are inherently bad creatures. I know you believe that Christ meant that your church would be eternally perfect when he said “the gates of Hell shall not overcome it,” but bear in mind that we believe he was referring to the universal church, which breaks the boundaries between Catholic and Protestant.

The point being, in the things rejected by Protestants overall, I don’t think the origins of the Bible are among them.

does it seem impossible to you that the Apostles were also men? the jews run Israel were also men. Jesus became man. who do you think God should have sent out to teach all men if not men chosen by HIm.?

Protestants have taking the authority from Jesus when they have ignored His authority given to His Church and commissioned her to teach all men and they have rejected His authority in doing so. instead they decide to put the Bible in authority when Jesus Himself puts His Church in charge.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Well, I can see both sides. I can see your thoughts on “Protestants have taken the authority from Jesus Christ and gave it to the Bible.” But I can also see the Protestant side which supports the words of Christ Himself and his hand-appointed Apostles and disciples as having higher authority than the rules and laws made up by the hierarchy of the early Church. They reject the Catechism as made-made and go to the Bible, their only source for what God said and did. So maybe they would say, “Catholics have taken the authority from Jesus Christ and gave it to the leader of their Church”. So I can understand both perspectives. If one doesn’t believe in the authority of the Church, they will not take the teachings of the Church over their own religion. I think that’s normal that they would think the same of Catholics, that Catholics think of them.

this is not about psychology. this is about Truth and one Truth of God alone.

 

[PJM]

=ConsciousCoward;8589790]The thing is, a lot of Protestants understand that the Bible came from a council that happened far before the Reformation. That isn’t what’s being rejected. What’s being rejected is that the Catholic Chirch is still exactly the same as the church founded by Christ. For many of us, it seems impossible that an institution run by man could remain perfect, as many of us believe that men are inherently bad creatures. I know you believe that Christ meant that your church would be eternally perfect when he said “the gates of Hell shall not overcome it,” but bear in mind that we believe he was referring to the universal church, which breaks the boundaries between Catholic and Protestant.

The point being, in the things rejected by Protestants overall, I don’t think the origins of the Bible are among them.

***The problem dear friend is not recogonizing what God HIMSELF has to say about it.

Let’s, for this post, look at only three passages in the light of Matthew 16:18-19 where Jesus gives to Peter, whom HE CHOOSE, to lead His One New Faith, One New Chuch. we will use ONLY the Gospel of John for this lesson, as he was “closest” [the beloved], of Christ, and lived the longest. ***

John.14:16 to 17 “And I [JESUS] will pray the Father, ***and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, ***[17] even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.”

Notice Here that Jesus Gives HIMSELF as warranty of the teachings of the RCC;

John.17: 15 to 19 : I [JESUS] do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.*** As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [19][This means with Christ Own Powers and Authority] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.***

John.20: 19 to 23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, **“Peace be with you.” ** When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. ***As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ***[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

All of the following have taken place in this brief passage:

The promise Jesus made to send the HS to guide, lead and protect the teachings of His Church has now been completed

The Feast of Pentecost is founded

Jesus transfers to His apostkes THROUGH the SEE of Peter; His actual Powers and Authority AS GOD READ Mt. 10:8]

This is the Official Founding of todays RCC

And the Sacramnets of Confirmation and Reconcillation [Confession] are instituted by Christ Himself.

So dear friend it IS NOT MERLLY “a man”; it is thee MAN chosen by God, and protected and guided in what the Chair of Peter claims as TRUTH and as necessary for ALL to follow. It is a SPIRITUAL IMPOSSIBILITY that ANY OFFICIAL CC Teaching on Faith matters [what MUST be believed] and or Moral issues be in error. God HIMSELF is warranty of this truth

God Bless you, and thanks for your post!
Pat

 

[PJM]

=AnneTeresa;8590245]This issue was the final impetus for my returning to the catholic church a year ago. (There were other issues that just didn’t sit right with me but this was the final straw.)

We were in a small group study (non-denom church) and were studying about the Bible. The person doing the discussion that week held up the bible over her head and we all had to do it because it was our sword (which is scriptural I know and we do it at mass at the Gospel, but this was very different).

I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable with this. During the discussion, I tried to explain that there is so much more than the bible, but it was not understood (granted, I didn’t know a good way to explain but I just KNEW something was very off).

The leader made very strong remarks about how the bible was all we needed, etc. But I knew there was a lack of depth in prayer at the same time.

When we read the verses in John about the Word, I really think they thought it was talking about the bible, not Jesus.

I couldn’t take it anymore. I was so uncomfortable. I started going back to the Catholic church then.

God works in mysterious and POWERFUL ways in the hearts that let Him in

WELCOME HOME!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[jmcrae]

We see it especially in the “petros/Petra” argument. So many Protestants right here on this forum have almost come right out and said, “never mind what Jesus actually said to Peter. Here is what the text of the Scriptures says - and because it is in the Scriptures, it is more true than whatever it was that actually happened.”

They don’t actually put it into those words, but they are very insistent that what is written down supercedes what actually happened - that what Matthew’s Greek translator wrote is of greater authority than Christ Himself when speaking aloud to Peter. (Because we always point out that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, and used neither “petros” nor “petra” but said “Kepha” and “kepha.” But “petros” is different than “petra” and therefore Jesus was not actually speaking to Peter. (Even though he was not speaking Greek at the time, but Aramaic.)

 

[Kristin234]

If something is considered the infallible word of God then it has authority. Protestants see the Bible as the infallible living word of God, so when we read the Bible it is basically God talking to us. This is why Protestants go back to the Bible. Because it comes** from God**. We don’t pray to the Bible, we don’t worship the Bible (we do use it to learn more about God and to live like Christ. “Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path”), and we definitely did not replace Jesus with the Bible.

Jesus has the final authority. The Bible tells us he has the final authority. Because the Bible is God’s word and since the Bible tells us Jesus has final authority we know that indeed he has the final authority.

It is ridiculous to say that we give it more authority than Jesus. Without Jesus there would be no New Testament. We obviously know that the Bible isn’t the one that saved us and that it isn’t our god, but we do know that our God is speaking to us through it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

If something is considered the infallible word of God then it has authority. Protestants see the Bible as the infallible living word of God, so when we read the Bible it is basically God talking to us. This is why Protestants go back to the Bible. Because it comes** from God**. We don’t pray to the Bible, we don’t worship the Bible (we do use it to learn more about God and to live like Christ. “Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path”), and we definitely did not replace Jesus with the Bible.

Jesus has the final authority. The Bible tells us he has the final authority. Because the Bible is God’s word and since the Bible tells us Jesus has final authority we know that indeed he has the final authority.

It is ridiculous to say that we give it more authority than Jesus. Without Jesus there would be no New Testament. We obviously know that the Bible isn’t the one that saved us and that it isn’t our god, but we do know that our God is speaking to us through it.

This is what I am talking about. Jesus Himself place His Church in authority and not the Bible. it is the through the Church that we hear the Word of God. Jesus says this Himself. protestants have simply ignored what Jesus says to place authority in the Bible.

 

[Nicea325]

If something is considered the infallible word of God then it has authority. Protestants see the Bible as the infallible living word of God, so when we read the Bible it is basically God talking to us. This is why Protestants go back to the Bible. Because it comes** from God**. We don’t pray to the Bible, we don’t worship the Bible (we do use it to learn more about God and to live like Christ. “Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path”), and we definitely did not replace Jesus with the Bible.

Jesus has the final authority. The Bible tells us he has the final authority. Because the Bible is God’s word and since the Bible tells us Jesus has final authority we know that indeed he has the final authority.

It is ridiculous to say that we give it more authority than Jesus. Without Jesus there would be no New Testament. We obviously know that the Bible isn’t the one that saved us and that it isn’t our god, but we do know that our God is speaking to us through it.

Yeah and God is also speaking through His Church he founded many years ago.

 

[Kristin234]

This is what I am talking about. Jesus Himself place His Church in authority and not the Bible. it is the through the Church that we hear the Word of God. Jesus says this Himself. protestants have simply ignored what Jesus says to place authority in the Bible.

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that the Bible is not the word of God? If you believe that the Bible is the word of God then it has authority because…well to put it simply it is God’s word. If you don’t believe the Bible has authority then it is not the word of God. Which is it because I am getting confused now

To say that the Bible is God’s infallible true word but then to say it has no authority makes no sense. How could God’s word have no authority?

Like I said, Protestants do not go to the Bible because they worship it. They go to the Bible because it is the word of God.