I think that protestants have taken the authority

[GaryTaylor]

" let it be done to you according to YOUR will" said the Holy One.

PR states earlier…"the paradigm that I am refuting is this one: “The Holy Spirit will lead us to understanding Scripture. We do not need any authority to tell us what Scripture means!”

jlhargus and CopticChristian confirm the point basically by stating…

jlhargus- How does scripture tell us to HEAR Christ? Answer by hearing those “He SENT”.

CopticChristian- Do you not find it odd that Paul writes letters to Churches not individuals?

However…

Whats failed to be recognized is “Apostolic Succession” as in JOHN-20:22-23. Matthew all of Pauls letters and Johns etc etc etc.

In the third century the Pope claims authority from the fact that they are St. Peter’s successors, and no one objects to this claim, no one raises a counter-claim. And this continues to date!

Before the Bible existed the Christian Church which was led by Apostolic Authority “ONLY” given by Jesus Christ through Oral Tradition, which dates directly to Christs death, specifically to St Peter by “Divine Providence”. That tradition has never been broken, except by a “few” who chose to follow mans way and not Gods, in disobedience, thus his own Pride instead of Humility. Thus when you read Scipture and ignore this “Elephant” in the room. You then take content/context and turn it into PRETEXT. The Bible then becomes your word, not Gods, your will, not Gods. The Bible is not the authority, the Church is. And thats “why” the gates of hell can never prevail…

The Mystical Body of Jesus Christ exists “exactly” were He placed it, and more important with “whom” He placed it, and for “eternity”.

" let it be done to you, according to YOUR will" are you sure your following Gods will and not your own? How do you know?

When your asked that question, the response must be, No, I am the Thief who deserved to be Crucified not the Lord. Let YOUR WILL be done Lord. Thats the “correct” response. And what is that will? Not only Apostolic Succession, but the Liturgy/Eucharist through the “entire” content/context of OT/NT. Living the Commandments and Beatitudes.

Pride turned Angels to demons, Humility turned men to Saints. The path of humility is obedience.

Just Sayin, lot to “think” about above. Re-Read with on open mind and not some pre-conceived learned behavior.

Are they “all” right in all the Protestant denominations? Because they certainly “all” say something different and worship different. Then how could you be so certain YOUR learned behavior is RIGHT until you look at it “objectively” with an open mind, understanding perhaps you are wrong. Seek truth not mans slick talk.

And there is “NO” authority in the Protestant church, for no-one had it to begin with to start the church. They have their own thinking thus their own will being done. The Lords will was the Apostolic Authority to establish the Mystical Body which would guided by the Holy Spirit for eternity. Thus the head of the Mystical Body is Christ.

If the purpose one arrives here is to show the CC is incorrect and the Protestant theory is correct. Then you arrived with a closed mind in denial under the “assumption” everything your doing is absolutely correct. And your life and learned behavior probly confirms this. There’s some very moral-ethical individuals whom attend NO church, and their state of being would also indicate the same as yours.

So how do you know your right?

Peace

 

[Dan_Daly]

from Jesus the Christ and gave to the Bible.

I see this when they insist that the Bible is the final authority. What do you think people?

Protestantism is not a pro-Scripture religion despite protests to the contrary. It takes the authority of God and tries to place it on the individual. How can a faith be pro-Scripture when it claims the authority to reject whatever books of the Bible it wishes?

Pax Christi

 

[rinnie]

from Jesus the Christ and gave to the Bible.

I see this when they insist that the Bible is the final authority. What do you think people?

No one takes authority from Christ nor his Church.

As Christ said he and his Church are one. No one can overpower Christ or his Church not even protestants!!

 

[rinnie]

Protestantism is not a pro-Scripture religion despite protests to the contrary. It takes the authority of God and tries to place it on the individual. How can a faith be pro-Scripture when it claims the authority to reject whatever books of the Bible it wishes?

Pax Christi

Where does the authority come from??? The bible came from the CHurch which was given directly from the Holy Spirit.

So that is probally the biggest question in the history of faith. WHO has the authority to reject books that were put in by the power of the Holy Spirit?

Now maybe the Protestant Church can claim it, but the CC will surely reject it. Again the question, where was the right? WHO claims to truly have it? And if they say they have it where did it come from? God?

That would be like saying the Holy Spirit made a mistake or something, And thats IMPOSSIBLE!! The Original Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. No one can deny that. but then how can they deny all of the books

 

[GaryTaylor]

Where does the authority come from??? The bible came from the CHurch which was given directly from the Holy Spirit.

So that is probally the biggest question in the history of faith. WHO has the authority to reject books that were put in by the power of the Holy Spirit?

Now maybe the Protestant Church can claim it, but the CC will surely reject it. Again the question, where was the right? WHO claims to truly have it? And if they say they have it where did it come from? God?

That would be like saying the Holy Spirit made a mistake or something, And thats IMPOSSIBLE!! The Original Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. No one can deny that. but then how can they deny all of the books

Who was given the authority?

And the issue remains in this sentence of Dan…

(It takes the authority of God and (tries) to place it on the individual.)

Mightly grand of one to “assume” they may know better than God."

Definition of (Try)- 1. to “attempt” to do or accomplish. 2. to “test the effect” or result of.

And what is the result? 3600 denomination’s all who have their “one” version of how to “try” to accomplish what God established in Earth by covenant. Divine Providence through St. Peter and the Apostles in “succession”.

Definition of (covenant)- 1. A binding agreement; a compact. 2. Law, a formal sealed agreement or contract.

Upon this Rock (St. Peter) I shall build MY (GODs) church. And the gates of hell shall “never prevail”.

Course by Bible alone I suppose we can interpret Gods word any way we want which we have seen, over and over and over.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

Who was given the authority?

And the issue remains in this sentence of Dan…

(It takes the authority of God and (tries) to place it on the individual.)

Mightly grand of one to “assume” they may know better than God."

Definition of (Try)- 1. to “attempt” to do or accomplish. 2. to “test the effect” or result of.

And what is the result? 3600 denomination’s all who have their “one” version of how to “try” to accomplish what God established in Earth by covenant. Divine Providence through St. Peter and the Apostles in “succession”.

Definition of (covenant)- 1. A binding agreement; a compact. 2. Law, a formal sealed agreement or contract.

Upon this Rock (St. Peter) I shall build MY (GODs) church. And the gates of hell shall “never prevail”.

Course by Bible alone I suppose we can interpret Gods word any way we want which we have seen, over and over and over.

Peace

You just wrote it yourself upom this ROCK Peter I shall build my Gods Church. So there you have it. And who has Authority Peter aka the Pope and the Bishops with him. Just the way Christ left it.

Read it, Matt 28 The 11 disciples set out for Galilee, WHo did Jesus speak to, the word of GOD says THEM Gary. God gave them the authority to teach in his name. God said he was with then always until the end of time.

The laying of hands. Read it. St Paul tells Timothy to be very carefull on who they lay their hands on,

Now is it the end of time Gary? No it is not. Jesus said I am with YOU ALWAYS UNTIL the end of time. How could the Pope and Bishops not have the authority passed on to them, Jesus said they would until the ends of time.

 

[rinnie]

Who was given the authority?

And the issue remains in this sentence of Dan…

(It takes the authority of God and (tries) to place it on the individual.)

Mightly grand of one to “assume” they may know better than God."

Definition of (Try)- 1. to “attempt” to do or accomplish. 2. to “test the effect” or result of.

And what is the result? 3600 denomination’s all who have their “one” version of how to “try” to accomplish what God established in Earth by covenant. Divine Providence through St. Peter and the Apostles in “succession”.

Definition of (covenant)- 1. A binding agreement; a compact. 2. Law, a formal sealed agreement or contract.

Upon this Rock (St. Peter) I shall build MY (GODs) church. And the gates of hell shall “never prevail”.

Course by Bible alone I suppose we can interpret Gods word any way we want which we have seen, over and over and over.

Peace

Also Gary please explain to me how the Pope and Bishops who have Christ with them until the end of time assume that they know the word of God better then God when the words comes straight from God as he promised. Or are you saying God did not keep his word and is still with them until the end of time??? You make no sense to me.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Also Gary please explain to me how the Pope and Bishops who have Christ with them until the end of time assume that they know the word of God better then God when the words comes straight from God as he promised. Or are you saying God did not keep his word and is still with them until the end of time??? You make no sense to me.

It makes no sense, because you assume I disagree with you. Which is Not the case.

“Also Gary please explain to me how the Pope and Bishops who have Christ with them until the end of time (assume that they know the word of God better then God) when the words comes straight from God as he promised.”

I have no idea what this means, didn’t say anything of the such. However, lets move foward instead of debating what we agree on.

Peace

 

[Candlepower]

from Jesus the Christ and gave to the Bible.

I see this when they insist that the Bible is the final authority. What do you think people?

Do you have any proof that Scripture in all that it speaks shouldn’t be the final authority?

 

[Nicea325]

Do you have any proof that Scripture in all that it speaks shouldn’t be the final authority?

And do you have proof Jesus explicitly stated Scripture is the final authority? Christianity is a not a religion of the book,but of the person: Christ. Are we Muslims?

 

[Candlepower]

And do you have proof Jesus explicitly stated Scripture is the final authority? Christianity is a not a religion of the book,but of the person: Christ. Are we Muslims?

Answer my question please.

 

[Nicea325]

Answer my question please.

Easy. The Bible no where states it is the final authority.

So explain to me how a sacred book all on its own declares itself as the final authority?

 

[kbachler]

Clearly, the HS cannot be leading people into all these divergent opinions on the same Scriptures.

Clearly? Why not?

Scripture has not always been clear to man. There are very key and important points about which clarity is important – the greatest fundamentals. The Pharisees were certain that healing on the Sabbath was not allowed because one is to rest on the Sabbath. They were right! But what they ignored is that everything is based on the two fundamental commandments. Does one love God or ones neighbor (thus following the two most important commandments) if one does not heal the neighbor when one is able to do so? Does it give more glory to God to heal, or to rest?

The key is to be a “man after God’s own heart.” The idea that there rules which are set for everyone, and exactly the same to the most minute detail, and that these rules must be always followed no matter what is a concept that was refuted by Christ Himself. Did Christ provide His disciples a plethora of rules, or the simplicity of few - but important rules?

So, could the HS be leading some people one way because they can most easily chase God’s heart with one “flavor” while someone else might do better with a different “flavor”?

There may be arguments of lineage that carry power and weight, but this argument is not one that convinces me that any particular form of Protestantism is “contradictory”.

 

[JustaServant]

Do you have any proof that Scripture in all that it speaks shouldn’t be the final authority?

Argument from absence, gotta love it.
One would think that such an important concept would be clearly stated with the Scripture itself.

 

[rinnie]

It makes no sense, because you assume I disagree with you. Which is Not the case.

“Also Gary please explain to me how the Pope and Bishops who have Christ with them until the end of time (assume that they know the word of God better then God) when the words comes straight from God as he promised.”

I have no idea what this means, didn’t say anything of the such. However, lets move foward instead of debating what we agree on.

Peace

My Bad! I misunderstood completely. Forgive me:crying::flowers:

 

[rinnie]

Do you have any proof that Scripture in all that it speaks shouldn’t be the final authority?

Yes the bible itself states that. It also states the CHURCH is the Pilar of All Truth, not the Bible.

The bible is good to read but you cannot interpret it on your own. Unless you feel that you have the power of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture, which is in direct conflict with scripture itself.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Do you have any proof that Scripture in all that it speaks shouldn’t be the final authority?

How is this for proof:

There were Christians before there was a Christian Bible.

If you needed the Bible to be a Christian, that wouldn’t be possible…but it’s true.

A friend told me about a Protestant friend who was starting up a church. He was telling my Catholic friend “we’re going to do it just like the early Church!”

To which I replied: “So they aren’t going to have a New Testament?”



Pax

 

[PRmerger]

Clearly? Why not?

Ok. Let’s take the “clearly” out of the equation and say, “The Holy Spirit can not lead 2 Christians into 2 contrary doctrines.”

So, could the HS be leading some people one way because they can most easily chase God’s heart with one “flavor” while someone else might do better with a different “flavor”?

Oh, absolutely, if by “flavor” you mean different types of Spirituality, such as Ignatian, Dominican, Benedictine, praying charismatically or in silence, Latin Mass or vernacular…

But if you mean teaching contrary doctrines, absolutely not!

 

[GaryTaylor]

My Bad! I misunderstood completely. Forgive me:crying::flowers:

Christmas Blessing, Gary

 

[rinnie]

Portestants do raise the Bible up over people and traditions. Jesus said that not one word in the law, old testment, would disipear until all was complete. So the Holy Spirit would move it down through history without change. This way we have an rock solid old testment. In the new testment Paul say, under the power of the Holy Spirit, that all scripture is God breath and good for teaching, rebuking, correctiong and training. 2 Tim. 3:16. So if you want to get to the bed rock of truth and not trust men they go to the bible only. Yes men may interpret it to meet their wants, but I have found if I get along with the Father and read His words He will teach me the correct maening. In John gospel twice Jesus says he would send the Holy Spirit to teach us. If all true believers do this there would not be religious killings, hatred, jealousy. And if we disagree on a passage the Holy Spirit will guide us together to the answer.

Hi Rich what you wrote was beautiful and I agree with alot of what you are saying. But here is the problem, the bible also tells us we all have Different gifts.

We do not have the power of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. If we all had that power we would all never disagree on scripture Ever.

God never left us a book, he could have, and he could have even just given scripture in our minds and we would not even need the Church.

But see God didn’t do it that way. He send his Son to teach the Apostles and gave them the power of the Holy Spirit to teach in HIS NAME. HE told THEM to GO and spread the Good News.

Think back to what St Peter said, He said God has made his choice and it was to be through my mouth that the truth be taught to the gentiles. That is US. He left us the Pope who has a direct link to St Peter. That is why we believe that the Pope and his Bishops have the only authority to teach in his name. Even a Priest does not have the power of the Holy Spirit to interpret Scripture. That is why they even have to learn and teach what they are taught.

Even our Pope cannot say what he THINKS it COULD mean. He must teach what was handed down to him from the former Apostles or is given to him by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

God did make us a promise that the Holy Spirit would come to the Church and teach in his name. And it is through the Pope and Bishops we can be guaranteed it comes from God.

Many times people get so tied up in authority they forget the words of Christ. He gave the Pope and Bishiops authority and said until the end of age. This is not to try to make them better then anyone else. it is to keep us all tied together into ONE FAMILY in Christ.