I think the Catholic Church needs some change

[cargau]

I had it explained to me on another thread, that confirmation was never meant to be the “graduation” sacrament, and that a lot of young adults feel that once they go through their confirmation, they are “done,” graduated, got the degree, that’s it. I am now of the mind that confirmation should actually happen BEFORE the First Holy Communion and not after. It puts the Eucharist back in its proper place as the pinnacle of sacraments. There’s no reason confirmation should be delayed until late jr. high or high school. JMO after consideration.

I am not sure why you think the order of reception serves to indicate the importance of a Sacrament. The Eucharist is the greatest simply because it is Jesus, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.

Delaying Confirmation until one is old enough to make a consious decision to accept the Holy Spirit is very much a part of the Church’s plan. I have been doing Confirmation interviews this week and we ask every confirmant, “Do you freely choose to receive this sacrament?” Can that be done in first grade?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I am not sure why you think the order of reception serves to indicate the importance of a Sacrament. The Eucharist is the greatest simply because it is Jesus, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.

Delaying Confirmation until one is old enough to make a consious decision to accept the Holy Spirit is very much a part of the Church’s plan. I have been doing Confirmation interviews this week and we ask every confirmant, “Do you freely choose to receive this sacrament?” Can that be done in first grade?

The eastern Catholic churches Confirm infants, right after their baptism.

Thus it is not a necessity for prospective recipients of Confirmation to be able to answer that question. In your case, they are asked because they are already past the age of reason, but if one isn’t past the age of reason, such a question is unnecessary.

The Sacraments are not things we obtain for ourselves, and they are not a reward for “graduating” from Sunday school. They are God’s free gifts to us. They are His actions, not ours.

At best, “delaying Confirmation until one is old enough to make a conscious decision to accept the Holy Spirit” is part of the recent practice of the Latin Church. By far the approach more in line with Catholic Tradition is for Confirmation to *precede *one’s First Holy Communion.

And yes, order of reception does indisputably have powerful psychological connotations. One builds to a climax. And the Holy Eucharist is the climax of initiation into Catholic Sacramental life.

 

[maryjk]

I am not sure why you think the order of reception serves to indicate the importance of a Sacrament. The Eucharist is the greatest simply because it is Jesus, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.

Delaying Confirmation until one is old enough to make a consious decision to accept the Holy Spirit is very much a part of the Church’s plan. I have been doing Confirmation interviews this week and we ask every confirmant, “Do you freely choose to receive this sacrament?” Can that be done in first grade?

To me, this reflects a protestant view of accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.

I would love to see us go the proper order of the Sacraments.

 

[Maryann_C]

Homily is but one part of the Liturgy of the Word. It is required on Sundays and Holy days of obligation and encouraged (not required) during the week days. Even on Sundays it might be omitted for a serious reason. The Liturgy of the Word is essential to the mass, the homily is not.

I do not believe the homily should be skipped and I think it is important to have one on Sunday. At the same time it should not be ridiculously long (and 45 minutes is ridiculously long) and it should not be considered the main point of the mass.

True and to put a time limit on the Holy Spirit speaking ( one hopes) through the Priest is also not a good idea. Let us not forget the whole reason there was a homily in the first place …it came from the example of Jesus and indeed long before Him where religious leaders would give and explanation of the scriptures or an instruction on how to live according to God’s will.
To the Jews the temple was THE place to offer sacrifice and the teachings were given in synagog . With Jesus the new Jewish Christian sect followed the teachings of his disciples and have continued to do so through the apostolic succession and they taught that Jesus was the only sacrifice that was now needed the old sacrifices in the temple were no longer merited. Jesus did not only say to his apostles “go and do this” he also told them to “go and teach the good News” That is the function that the homily serves- without it the Church would HAVE to give Bible study outside of mass in order to fulfill its mission entrusted by Jesus.
It is important for us to not get nit-picky with time rules but rather to remember what Jesus taught us by what he said AND did and what He commanded the apostles to do .

 

[TheRealJuliane]

To me, this reflects a protestant view of accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.

I would love to see us go the proper order of the Sacraments.

It definitely does. Confirmation is not the pinnacle of the sacraments, and the idea that a person has to “consent” with adequate training puts it into that position.

 

[joshkt79]

Sermon is not an important part of the mass at all. Mass is valid with or without the sermon. I do not believe that 10 minutes of religious education is enough, but Mass is not for religious education or catechism or Bible study. In my experience, long sermons are not usually exactly informative and often short messages are more memorable. But before all, mass is for remembering and re-living the sacrifice of Christ. I am usually not bothered or disappointed by bad sermons, because that is not what I come to mass for.

As for not having time for God on Sunday, your post comes across slightly insulting. How would like to go to an emergency room on Sunday and not have a doctor on call there because he is spending four hours in the church? There are catholic doctors, nurses, firefighters and some of them are struggling to fulfill their Sunday obligation because somebody decided that a 7 am mass should last for over an hour. There are also people that care for sick relatives for whom it might not be easy to spend a long time in the Church. I wish there was a parish in each area that would have at least one early morning 6am or 6:30 am Sunday or a late Saturday mass so these people can attend. I am not saying that every mass should last under one hour, but I wish there was at least one. I normally do not care about the length of the mass, but this has been a very difficult issue for my husband, hence the strong opinion.

Also, to make each Sunday mass last for 2 hours would be very burdensome for many people, even those that in principle have a lot of time on Sunday. It would not be beneficial at all and the end result would be a decrease in the Sunday mass attendance. You will not solve any perceived problems with the religious education of catholics, you will only create new ones.

One more thing - have you thought about the poor priest that is supposed to preside over these two hour long masses? My previous parish had a single priest and 2 churches, with 2 Saturday masses and 3 Sunday masses. I did not envy his weekend schedule at all.

Maybe a 4 hour mass isn’t the way to go. It was a bad idea, but I’m just trying to figure out ways to do more than “just go to church”. Also, Catholic doctors, nurses, policemen, firefighters chose their profession and they knew working weekends is necessary before choosing their profession. No one forced them to pick their jobs. If you’re worried about fulfilling your Sunday obligation, talk to a Priest about it.

No one ever has to worry about going into a hospital and wonder if a doctor is on call, or if he’s at church for however many hours. There is always a doctor on call…just like firefighters and policemen. No offense, but what you said didn’t make much sense.

The last bold-like above, Priests chose their profession. No one forced them into it. it’s their job.

 

[teresadeavila]

On Sundays, we are in church around 2 hours, 1st hour for our children’s religious ed classes then Mass - sometimes parish breakfast afterwards. Our parish also offers a small Bible study group during RE classes. Look for a parish that offers that or Mass then a small Bible study group or discussion group on another day. I’ve seen a lot of parishes offer that.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Delaying Confirmation until one is old enough to make a consious decision to accept the Holy Spirit is very much a part of the Church’s plan. I have been doing Confirmation interviews this week and we ask every confirmant, “Do you freely choose to receive this sacrament?” Can that be done in first grade?

Regarding the bolded part: Then why does the Church allow infants to be confirmed if they are in danger of death? They’re not in a position to make a decision at all.

As for whether a first-grader could freely choose – in general the answer is no. But a second-grader has reached the age of reason and CAN choose to receive a sacrament. That’s why an unbaptized second- or third-grader goes through RCIA and receives all of the sacraments of initiation at once.

 

[tafan]

Certainly the original order of the sacraments of initiation should be restored. It is the mindset that confirmation is some type of rite of adulthood and/or the idea that it is the only way to keep kids coming to CCD classes that keeps it from being implemented the correct way. People who think confirmation should be delayed until teenage years must not have much faith in the efficacy of the sacrament. In this day and age, our kids need those graces more than ever!!!

As to extending mass to 2 hours (half of it being a mandatory bible study): what a horrible idea. I think a Sunday mass of an hour is about right, and certainly should not be longer on a regular basis.

And a daily mass should be 20-25 minutes tops!!! On days where our school has mass, a 45-60 minute daily mass sure does get in the way and makes it difficult to fit in. I have certainly been known to “shop” for shorter masses on those days of the week.

I also think all parishes should have adult focused faith formation.

 

[Rence]

In respect to Mass and Confirmation.

I think Mass isn’t long enough. I believe it should be a standard 2 hour mass across the board. One hour of mass, one hour of bible study. I find many people look for churches that have the shortest mass times and that is just wrong.

IMOHO, it’s hard enough to get people to go to Mass as it is. Making the Mass longer and more tedious by adding an hour of bible study isn’t going to bring them in any easier. You’d probably have a group of people just coming in during the actually required times. I’d anticipate that if one hour of Bible study was added after the Mass, people would just leave after Mass. It would be just like those parishes that offer Bible study: some would attend, some would not.

When I made my Confirmation(1996), all we did was have weekly Wednesday Catechism classes. No tests and the majority of the time, the teacher, or Priest wasn’t even there. So, we mainly just sat there for about 20 minutes and then we all left. I think Confirmation should not be made until after you turn 18, graduate high school, and take a year to do a “mission”, kind of like the LDS.

I agree. I don’t think confirmation should be made until the participants are older and full understand. Though, traditionally, it was done with Baptism. As for preparation, it was incorporated into our religion class throughout the year.

 

[Rence]

Regarding the bolded part: Then why does the Church allow infants to be confirmed if they are in danger of death? They’re not in a position to make a decision at all.

As for whether a first-grader could freely choose – in general the answer is no. But a second-grader has reached the age of reason and CAN choose to receive a sacrament. That’s why an unbaptized second- or third-grader goes through RCIA and receives all of the sacraments of initiation at once.

Well first of all, Confirmation isn’t a consentual thing anyway. Baptism obligates the candidate to be Catholic and obey canon law, so that was done when the infant was Baptised. Second of all, in a Catholic family, a first grader has no more or less freedom to choose than a 14 or 15 year old. They still live under their parents’ home and under the parents’ rule. Some have their Confirmation regardless of whether they want it or not, simply because their parents make them do it. Again, it’s not a consent thing anyway. They’re already Catholic by their Baptism. However, a good instructor will delay Confirmation if the child is adamantly and/or obviously not ready for it.

 

[MomaMary8]

Maybe a 4 hour mass isn’t the way to go. It was a bad idea, but I’m just trying to figure out ways to do more than “just go to church”. Also, Catholic doctors, nurses, policemen, firefighters chose their profession and they knew working weekends is necessary before choosing their profession. No one forced them to pick their jobs. If you’re worried about fulfilling your Sunday obligation, talk to a Priest about it.

No one ever has to worry about going into a hospital and wonder if a doctor is on call, or if he’s at church for however many hours. There is always a doctor on call…just like firefighters and policemen. No offense, but what you said didn’t make much sense.

The last bold-like above, Priests chose their profession. No one forced them into it. it’s their job.

I’m skipping the debate part of this thread and I want to ask you (OP) what do you do for your daily habits to keep God present? It is not up to the Church or to the priests to make God a part of your life. It is up to YOU! I also want you to remember that there is no greater prayer than the mass, so if at all possible, go to daily mass. Receive the Lord in the Eucharist and have Him with you. If you cannot attend mass, be sure to pray a spiritual communion prayer and ask God to receive Him spiritually.

Other things I suggest you do is plan your day around God. Wake up every morning and thank Him for the day and offer it up to Him. At every hour or at every new task, make a short prayer or some aspiration (I like: “Hear I am, for you did call me.”) Make sure to set aside at least 15 minutes for spiritual reading and more time for quiet prayer. End your day with an examination of conscience. Ask yourself how you kept God a part of your day? Did you remember Him??

It sounds like you hear God’s call to make Him a part of your life, so structure your day around Him! Just because you are not in the church building does not mean God is not with you!

God bless!

 

[tafan]

. However, a good instructor will delay Confirmation if the child is adamantly and/or obviously not ready for it.

And a good instructor can do that as just as well with a 2nd grader as with a 7th or 8th grader.

 

[Rence]

And a good instructor can do that as just as well with a 2nd grader as with a 7th or 8th grader.

I agree

 

[tafan]

I agree

Then why did you agree with the OP that confirmation should be delayed until adulthood? I am confused about your position. Sorry, maybe I am just a little slow today.

 

[cargau]

The eastern Catholic churches Confirm infants, right after their baptism.

Thus it is not a necessity for prospective recipients of Confirmation to be able to answer that question. In your case, they are asked because they are already past the age of reason, but if one isn’t past the age of reason, such a question is unnecessary.

The Sacraments are not things we obtain for ourselves, and they are not a reward for “graduating” from Sunday school. They are God’s free gifts to us. They are His actions, not ours.

At best, “delaying Confirmation until one is old enough to make a conscious decision to accept the Holy Spirit” is part of the recent practice of the Latin Church. By far the approach more in line with Catholic Tradition is for Confirmation to *precede *one’s First Holy Communion.

And yes, order of reception does indisputably have powerful psychological connotations. One builds to a climax. And the Holy Eucharist is the climax of initiation into Catholic Sacramental life.

I Think its fair to say that there is no clear “best” way. I do see the wisdom of the Church providing the sacrament of Confirmation when young people are preparing to enter into adulthood. I still don’t see that the primacy of a Sacrament is “indisputably” tied to the order of reception psychologically or otherwise. All Sacraments are vital to a vibrant and enriching spiritual life. The Eucharist is the greatest because of what it is, not when it is received in relation to the other sacraments.

 

[tafan]

… The Eucharist is the greatest because of what it is, not when it is received in relation to the other sacraments.

I think the point is the order of reception should be restored not in order to make the Eucharist the greatest, but because it is the greatest; ie before receiving the Eucharist one should be fully initiated into the Church. Perhaps that is bad wording, but I hope you understand the point.

However, my main point would be that the graces of confirmation are needed during one’s formative years. That is why it should be received earlier (much earlier).

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Certainly the original order of the sacraments of initiation should be restored. It is the mindset that confirmation is some type of rite of adulthood and/or the idea that it is the only way to keep kids coming to CCD classes that keeps it from being implemented the correct way.

Well said. That attitude - “Well they’ll stop coming to PSR then!” - makes me want to do this: :banghead:

I also think all parishes should have adult focused faith formation.

Indeed!

I Think its fair to say that there is no clear “best” way. I do see the wisdom of the Church providing the sacrament of Confirmation when young people are preparing to enter into adulthood. I still don’t see that the primacy of a Sacrament is “indisputably” tied to the order of reception psychologically or otherwise. All Sacraments are vital to a vibrant and enriching spiritual life. The Eucharist is the greatest because of what it is, not when it is received in relation to the other sacraments.

I agree and disagree.

There is good reason for the current practice of most dioceses of the Latin Church, but it’s totally lost on most people, for whom Confirmation merely represents the equivalent of graduating from Sunday school.

Traditionally, the bishop is the one who ordinarily confers Confirmation. There are not a lot of bishops to go around, however, so different Christian communities developed different ways of dealing with this problem:

… in the East, which gives all three Sacraments of Initiation to infants, the bishop consecrates the chrism oil, which priests then use when they Confirm infants.

… in the West, we now (in most dioceses) solve this issue basically by waiting for the bishop to come around - i.e., doing Confirmation at a later age.

So there is an advantage to the practice of the Latin Church, which is that our practice emphasizes unity with our local bishop.

This, however, can be achieved even if the traditional order is preserved - the bishop would merely be coming when the kids are younger, that’s all.

Under no circumstances should Confirmation be delayed merely because parents will stop caring about their children’s religious education once they’ve crossed what the parents lazily and inaccurately perceive as the finish line.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Second of all, in a Catholic family, a first grader has no more or less freedom to choose than a 14 or 15 year old. They still live under their parents’ home and under the parents’ rule.

Well…yes and no.

I work with our adult confirmation program and one of the questions I always ask at the beginning is why people have decided to prepare for confirmation now, as adults. The most common thing I hear is something like “I didn’t get confirmed when I was 15. I told my parents they couldn’t make me do it. But now that I’m 30 (or 40 or whatever age) I understand that I should have done it then and can go ahead and do it now. Besides, if I want to be able to tell my kids that this is important, I need to show them how important it is to me.”

Unfortunately in the teen years, rebellion and independence may mean moving away from the Church. They show their independence by refusing to go to Mass or be confirmed. Parents can push to a certain extent, but they have a lot more influence with their younger children.

 

[thewanderer]

Maybe a 4 hour mass isn’t the way to go. It was a bad idea, but I’m just trying to figure out ways to do more than “just go to church”. Also, Catholic doctors, nurses, policemen, firefighters chose their profession and they knew working weekends is necessary before choosing their profession. No one forced them to pick their jobs. If you’re worried about fulfilling your Sunday obligation, talk to a Priest about it.

No one ever has to worry about going into a hospital and wonder if a doctor is on call, or if he’s at church for however many hours. There is always a doctor on call…just like firefighters and policemen. No offense, but what you said didn’t make much sense.

The last bold-like above, Priests chose their profession. No one forced them into it. it’s their job.

And I really appreciate that you are trying to figure out ways for this to happen! I think much of the backlash waas not so much about the idea of holding a bible study afterwards, but rather about making it a universal requirement. I think you’ve started a very interesting conversation though, this is definitely something worth talking about!

As to the fact that there is alwaays a doctor on call so we shouldn’t worry about trying to be accomadating to Catholic Doctors… that seems a little harsh to me. We need good catholics working in *all *fields, and the medical fields especially!!! Do you really mean to say that you would prefer it if no health professionals were Catholic?? I can’t imagine that being a good thing in any sense!!!. Whatever way you cut it, there are going to be Catholics who have to work on the weekend, and it is charitable to attempt to make it easier for them to get to mass. This doesn’t mean that *no *mass should be an hour long, but rather that it would be a very good and charitable thing to have a shorter mass (with shorter or fewer hymns, maybe without lengthy prayers of the faithful, short but to the point homily etc) early sunday morning for those who would have difficulty attending a later or longer mass. Yes, having a shorter mass means that you will very likely get people who go to it just because it is shorter and they want to just get in and out as fast as they can, but people with this attitude are not going to change the attitude just because the mass is longer, all that is likely to happen if this is the only thing that is done is that they are going to become more irritated about ‘having’ to go to mass.

So the real question is, how do we help others change from a lukewarm state, to being on fire with love for Christ?