Dear Everyone,
Let me say first to Ron that the magisterium does not talk specifically about specific acts, but provides a moral framework for guidance in understanding chaste relations. Therefore, you will not see them say specifically, “oral stimulation is okay as foreplay…” or anything else of that nature. Currently many moral theologians and those who actually recieved their degree from the John Paul Institute have been taught that the magisterium’s guidance in these area’s is referring to a marital act (which includes foreplay, actual vaginal intercourse, and resolution) is chaste when it is done in such a way that does not render it infertile (ie male seed is properly deposited) and that the act is done not solely for the purpose of gratifying one’s desires or becoming a slave to those desires. West’s book has the support of many bishops such as Milwaukee ArchBishop Timothy Dolan. I doubt the magisterium and the John Paul Institute which is an institute designed to teach the late Pope’s teachings is allowing these people to go around and mislead Catholics while remaining silent. You again offer quotes from sources that do not specificaly back your position, but you take the word unnatural to mean anything that seems perverse to you while everyone else believes they mean it refers to acts that do not facilitate the marital embrace.
Not to be blunt, but a husband has a duty according to JPII to help assist his wife in attaining the joy of the embrace and not merely seek his own pleasure and most woman would agree that what you describe as acceptable will lead to many women not attaining that joy because women are not like men. They are more gradual and not to get anatomical, but if you know how God designed a woman’s body, you would understand that simple intercourse will do very little in going the way of the husband fulfilling the duty of helping his wife attain that joy that she should during the embrace. Therefore, many sexual moral theologians do not find the acts that you find offensive as wrong because they are done in a loving way to assist the wife and in no way hinder openess to life. And guess what, many are very conservative and the magisterium is not rushing out to reprimand them on their teachings because I bet the magisterium sees that they have rightly interpreted their teachings.
You have not even defined what unnatural means and why some acts such as kissing and caressing certain areas fall under natural, but others fall under unnatural as part of foreplay.
Basically its a cicular arguement, its wrong because its unnatural and its unnatural because it is wrong.
To everyone else, feel rest assured that the Magisterium’s teaching have not been interpreted by any moral theologian with a degree from john Paul Institute or other fine orthodox institutions, and getting reprimanded by bishops or the Holy See, I dont think they have called West up or ArchBishop Dolan to say “Hey you have it wrong and recant that.” These seem to be strictly Ron’s interpretations and I do not know what his background is to speak authoratatively in interpreting magisterium teaching that contradicts all other teachers including bishops. So I suggest not continuing to question Ron because he is probably very convinced in these beliefs.
Finally to Ron, I know your intentions are well and so I am not mad at you… better to have your thinking than many who do not believe in chastity at all within marriage. Continue your journey and seek out authoritative writers in this area. I think we have exhausted each side and sadly I do not have my Love and Responsibility book by JPII which has quotes to support many the things I am trying to explain. please forgive me for not being able to really enrich this discussion.
Which was I?
