I Took a Baptist to Church - Catholics & Anglicans Help Me Out

[JonNC]

A friend of mine, who is Baptist, is having a sort of crisis of faith so I invited him to attend church with me last Sunday; I thought a different perspective might help him out. I wasn’t trying to convert him, as I firmly believe one’s spiritual journey is their own to travel.

After Mass, we got in the car and I asked him what he thought. He asked me how I could attend a church that was so ritualistic and empty. I empathized with his sentiments because I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church and have heard this criticism many times.

I told him that he couldn’t compare a Baptist service to an Episcopal service; the two are too different. A Baptist service is for praise and worship, and he should think of an Episcopal Mass, from procession to recession, as one long prayer.

I didn’t know what to say; I was speaking off the cuff. What should I have said?

While not Catholic nor Anglican, Lutheran worship is highly liturgical, as well. This may or may not help, but in our Lutheran Worship book, the liturgy is layed out, and each part, from invocation to benediction has a specific scriptural reference. Perhaps if you went through the mass from a scriptural reference perspective, it might make some connections for him.

Just a thought.

Jon

 

[manualman]

My (name removed by moderator)ut might be too defensive to be useful as an immediate response unless the fellow is a blunt spoken oaf (like me!).

If the question is one of “How can you find meaning in such empty rituals?” my response would be “because I have learned the difference between spiritual meaning and enthusiasm /entertainment.”

Evangelical “praise and worship” services are heavy on the praise songs and even sometimes spontaneous exclamations of praise. But they tend to ignore the ‘worship’ aspect. In my (admittedly limited) experience, they seem to think that ‘praise’ is the fast paced tunes that make you excited and ‘worship’ is the slow paced tunes that make you teary. It’s all about us and how we feel. Doesn’t that get old? Don’t you ever yearn to participate in worship where the focus is on God, on His revelation, on His Incarnation as Christ and on the amazing gift He has given us? One which is not dependent on emotional manipulation techniques and group-feel experiences? That’s what mass is. You don’t come away feeling wowwed and entertained because that’s not the PURPOSE. The purpose is to BRING yourself and offer yourself in worship and sacrifice in union with the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary. To be remade and transformed by that participation. It’s NOT entertaining. It’s worship. Sacrifice is never fun, but it is the basis of actual love. Entertainment is not.

 

[JustaServant]

Regarding the perceived emptiness I think a lot of that can be cured by having understanding of what is going on. But it is also important to realize that we don’t worship God to get a feeling. I think a lot of people have that expectation. One thing I’ve found being around some Baptists is they are on fire for the Lord in a way that I am not. I don’t have that same feeling they do. It can make you question whether you are a true believer. But I don’t think I’m lacking. I think there are just different personalities and I also think that there is a danger in basing your faith on strong emotions. A real test of faith is doing God’s will when you don’t feel like doing God’s will. A real act of love is being loving even when you don’t feel loving. It is easy to do things you are inclined to do by emotion.

Good points.
An emotional pep rally is no way to measure who is and who is not a true believer. Many evangelicals have come on this forum and said “Catholics pray with no emotion, like robots.” Just because someone is jumping and singing with thier Bible doesn’t mean a thing.

Luke 18:
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[Nicea325]

A friend of mine, who is Baptist, is having a sort of crisis of faith so I invited him to attend church with me last Sunday; I thought a different perspective might help him out. I wasn’t trying to convert him, as I firmly believe one’s spiritual journey is their own to travel.

After Mass, we got in the car and I asked him what he thought. He asked me how I could attend a church that was so ritualistic and empty. I empathized with his sentiments because I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church and have heard this criticism many times.

I told him that he couldn’t compare a Baptist service to an Episcopal service; the two are too different. A Baptist service is for praise and worship, and he should think of an Episcopal Mass, from procession to recession, as one long prayer.

I didn’t know what to say; I was speaking off the cuff. What should I have said?

Well I would have personally told him that even the early church was ritualistic. I also would have told him that ALL churches are ritualistic,including his Baptist Church.

 

[JustaServant]

Well I would have personally told him that even the early church was ritualistic. I also would have told him that ALL churches are ritualistic,including his Baptist Church.

Typical Baptist church ritual:
Greeting.
Opening song.
Announcments.
2nd Song.
Offering (with song).
Special music.
Sermon.
Final song with invitation (a very sacramental and liturgical practice I might add).
Closing prayer.
Gossip in the parking lot.

 

[rdscheirer]

The Catholic Mass consists of three parts:

1. The worship of God as the progenitor of all things. We give all glory to God.
2. Reception of the Word of God from the Bible and the Homily(Sermon).
3. Celebration of Thanksgiving (Eucharist) that Christ sacrificed himself to save us. Do this in remembrance of me.

 

[Rhuarc]

Would he say the same thing about the ancient Israelites and their God ordained sacrifice of the lamb in the Temple during Passover?

 

[catholicmom2010]

Father John Riccardo has a great series of videos on the mass. He makes the analogy of someone coming to mass the first time to someone watching a football for the first time- it is hard to understand unless you know the rules and the players and the nuances. If you get a chance to view his videos on the Magnificant Mass, they are wonderful.

olgcparish.net/education/true_magnificence.html

If you scroll down you can look at Chapters One through Four

 

[AbideWithMe]

While not Catholic nor Anglican, Lutheran worship is highly liturgical, as well. This may or may not help, but in our Lutheran Worship book, the liturgy is layed out, and each part, from invocation to benediction has a specific scriptural reference. Perhaps if you went through the mass from a scriptural reference perspective, it might make some connections for him.

Just a thought.

Jon

I think this is good advice. I’ve been in semi-liturgical Evangelical churches for most of my life, so I’m used to responsive readings, written prayers, the Doxology, and a set benediction, etc., but…the first time I went to a high church Lutheran service about 20 years ago, I was lost. I wouldn’t have minded if someone had recognized that I was a stranger and had offered me help in following the service. As it was, being there on my own, I felt pretty foolish.

 

[AbideWithMe]

My (name removed by moderator)ut might be too defensive to be useful as an immediate response unless the fellow is a blunt spoken oaf (like me!).

If the question is one of “How can you find meaning in such empty rituals?” my response would be “because I have learned the difference between spiritual meaning and enthusiasm /entertainment.”

Evangelical “praise and worship” services are heavy on the praise songs and even sometimes spontaneous exclamations of praise. But they tend to ignore the ‘worship’ aspect. In my (admittedly limited) experience, they seem to think that ‘praise’ is the fast paced tunes that make you excited and ‘worship’ is the slow paced tunes that make you teary. It’s all about us and how we feel. Doesn’t that get old? Don’t you ever yearn to participate in worship where the focus is on God, on His revelation, on His Incarnation as Christ and on the amazing gift He has given us? One which is not dependent on emotional manipulation techniques and group-feel experiences? That’s what mass is. You don’t come away feeling wowwed and entertained because that’s not the PURPOSE. The purpose is to BRING yourself and offer yourself in worship and sacrifice in union with the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary. To be remade and transformed by that participation. It’s NOT entertaining. It’s worship. Sacrifice is never fun, but it is the basis of actual love. Entertainment is not.

Dear Manualman----Way too much generalization and mischaracterization of Evangelicals here. It seems to me you’re almost doing in return/reverse what the OP’s friend did.

 

[Nicea325]

Typical Baptist church ritual:
Greeting.
Opening song.
Announcments.
2nd Song.
Offering (with song).
Special music.
Sermon.
Final song with invitation (a very sacramental and liturgical practice I might add).
Closing prayer.
Gossip in the parking lot.

Exactly! Looks and sounds ritualistic to me. Shoot! Even Jesus practiced a ritualistic faith.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think @CopticChristian is right that the first thing you should have done, and this is a global rule, is get clarification. So much of what we do is based on misunderstandings or incomplete knowledge. Getting your friend to express more fully what he meant would help you to address his specific concerns.

Others have pointed this out but understanding what is going on is very important to getting meaning out of the experience. In sports the more you understand the more you can appreciate. I’ve heard a lot of people complain that baseball is boring due to the lack of action. But the more you understand the subtleties the more you can appreciate the game.

Regarding the perceived emptiness I think a lot of that can be cured by having understanding of what is going on. But it is also important to realize that we don’t worship God to get a feeling. I think a lot of people have that expectation. One thing I’ve found being around some Baptists is they are on fire for the Lord in a way that I am not. I don’t have that same feeling they do. It can make you question whether you are a true believer. But I don’t think I’m lacking. I think there are just different personalities and I also think that there is a danger in basing your faith on strong emotions. A real test of faith is doing God’s will when you don’t feel like doing God’s will. A real act of love is being loving even when you don’t feel loving. It is easy to do things you are inclined to do by emotion.

Even though I have some appreciation for the enthusiastic attitude towards God I know that is not the only way to have faith and likely not even the best since it is far more temperamental and easily threatened. In fact I would say one of the reasons we have a marriage crisis in America is because marriage has become something based merely on a feeling. If marriage was based on a commitment to love regardless of feelings it would be much stronger and more stable. I think there is a great danger in applying the same approach to God that has done so much damage to marriage.

Exhilo,

Thank you. I believe it might be a bit of an adventure to engage this friend on a journey to other religions and other Christian communities. Vist some Buddhists etc and in searching these there will be commonality as to what the others do not have as compared to Christianity. A visit with some Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc would allow for discussion of some similarities…I believe it would bond these friends and allow for a more convenient dialogue.

 

[Cat]

Dear Manualman----Way too much generalization and mischaracterization of Evangelicals here. It seems to me you’re almost doing in return/reverse what the OP’s friend did.

Thank you for pointing this out in a gentle way.

I agree, way too many generalizations about evangelical Protestants on this thread. I find certain comments from certain posters just plain hurtful.

We will never be a good witness of Catholicism to our evangelical Protestant friends and relatives until we are willing to acknowledge that they are indeed our separated brothers and sisters, and recognize what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says–“Many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church.” (Para. 819)

We also have to be able to get into the evangelical Protestant’s head and try to understand why they feel the way they do about “liturgy” and “ritual.” I tried to explain those feelings in an earlier post, but it apparently didn’t make it into this thread, so I’ll just let it rest.

But I will say this: one of the best things we could do with our “Baptist” friends is listen to what they have to say and try to understand their mind and heart without attempting to refute them, at least not right away. We Catholics should try to live a life of righteousness and love, and then others will see that our faith in Christ is real and vibrant, and long to have what we have.

That entire section of the Catechism is worth a re-read: Paragraphs 813-822.

 

[JustaServant]

We also have to be able to get into the evangelical Protestant’s head and try to understand why they feel the way they do about “liturgy” and “ritual.”

Having spent 20 years across the Tiber, and more than a few of those years in a pulpit in many types of Baptist/evangelical churches, I feel I am more than qualified to critique non-liturgical services. When I critique I am speaking as a person who also once believed as they do.
Set words, prayers and responses are exercises that require my attention. They’re not entertaining and give me goosebumps. Boredom sets in because it requires concentration and effort. Worship is something I do, not something I*** watch***. Even in a traditional Latin Mass the congregation are not passive observers.
Worship is not “fun”, the purpose is not to give me a tingley emotional high and make my toe tap to the music. It is an encounter with the living God. I do not go into His Sacred Presence like a cookout on a neighbor’s back yard.
Since you think we are being hurtful, maybe if I made it a little more personal.
This form of worship fed into MY lazy nature. Nothing was required of me, just sit and stare. What I was doing could be achieved by simply popping in a music or preaching CD or watching a service in the privicy of my home. The emotional high is great, but it doesn’t last long. It wasn’t until I stood in a pulpit that I realized this.
If that is hurtful, then the truth is hurtful. I wish someone had told me this years ago, I wouldn’t have wasted 20 years across the Tiber endlessly searching for real worship.

 

[JustaServant]

Dear Manualman----Way too much generalization and mischaracterization of Evangelicals here. It seems to me you’re almost doing in return/reverse what the OP’s friend did.

Could you explain for us what that generalization is?

 

[JustaServant]

Having spent 20 years across the Tiber, and more than a few of those years in a pulpit in many types of Baptist/evangelical churches, I feel I am more than qualified to critique non-liturgical services. When I critique I am speaking as a person who also once believed as they do.
Set words, prayers and responses are exercises that require my attention. They’re not entertaining and give me goosebumps. Boredom sets in because it requires concentration and effort. Worship is something I do, not something I*** watch***. Even in a traditional Latin Mass the congregation are not passive observers.
Worship is not “fun”, the purpose is not to give me a tingley emotional high and make my toe tap to the music. It is an encounter with the living God. I do not go into His Sacred Presence like a cookout on a neighbor’s back yard.
Since you think we are being hurtful, maybe if I made it a little more personal.
This form of worship fed into MY lazy nature. Nothing was required of me, just sit and stare. What I was doing could be achieved by simply popping in a music or preaching CD or watching a service in the privicy of my home. The emotional high is great, but it doesn’t last long. It wasn’t until I stood in a pulpit that I realized this.
If that is hurtful, then the truth is hurtful. I wish someone had told me this years ago, I wouldn’t have wasted 20 years across the Tiber endlessly searching for real worship.

One more thing I want to add to this.
When I reverted back to the Catholic Church someone asked me if I felt any anger toward evangelical chrisitans. I told them, no, I held no resentment toward them because they didn’t know any better.
The people I was upset at were liberal “kubaya” Catholics who never bothered to tell me of the richness of the Catholic Church and explain what real worship was.
We do evangelicals no favors by withholding the obvious. By not telling them the truth “at least not right away”. An immediate emotional defense is expected, but when your spirit hears a truth, it stays anchored, whether you like it or not.
The words of a Episcopal priest (not a Catholic) rung in my ears for years until I finally saw the truth of it.
I am more grateful for one man in stating the truth, than in the many who held back because it might be “hurtful”.
I praise God someone took the time to “hurt me” 20 years ago.

 

[JonNC]

I think this is good advice. I’ve been in semi-liturgical Evangelical churches for most of my life, so I’m used to responsive readings, written prayers, the Doxology, and a set benediction, etc., but…the first time I went to a high church Lutheran service about 20 years ago, I was lost. I wouldn’t have minded if someone had recognized that I was a stranger and had offered me help in following the service. As it was, being there on my own, I felt pretty foolish.

I’m sorry that happened to you. Someone should have noticed. I would encourage you, should you ever decide to attend a Lutheran divine worship again, to speak to an usher, or an Elder, about assisting you with the liturgy.

Jon

 

[JustaServant]

I’m sorry that happened to you. Someone should have noticed. I would encourage you, should you ever decide to attend a Lutheran divine worship again, to speak to an usher, or an Elder, about assisting you with the liturgy.

Jon

Lutheran services have missels right? I know the few Episcopal churches I have been in have the Book of Common Prayer.

 

[JonNC]

Lutheran services have missels right? I know the few Episcopal churches I have been in have the Book of Common Prayer.

Yes, the Lutheran Service Book contains vurtually all of the liturgy. The lectionary for the day is usually printed in the bulletin, as is the order of worship with corresponding page numbers (there are 5 different settings for the liturgy) . But it can be confusing if you are new to Lutheran Divine Service. additionall, there are Matins, Vespers, and other types of worship other than mass.

Jon

 

[Ben_F]

Do you worship God to be more Holy or worshop God to feel good about yourself? God bless:thumbsup: