I Took a Baptist to Church - Catholics & Anglicans Help Me Out

[JonNC]

Just make sure you are not generalizing about Lutherans.

That’s almost as hard as generalizing about Anglicans.

Right, GKC?

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

I’m not going to put a resume on a public forum because I value my privacy. They were Independent. Southern, American, and Reformed Baptist.

Now, as to the question of generalization. I really don’t feel that is what is being done (at least not by me). I have been in many mainline Protestant denominations, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Disciples of Christ, all but Lutheran (I’ve already threatened to pop in on Jon’s church in NC someday. ) In those mainline Protestant churches I never saw the caos I knew in Baptist and evangelical churches.
When people don’t have an experience with something they can, yes, generalize. I have been in a few Catholic parishes that I would hate a non-Catholic to visit and think all Catholic churches are like that one.
However, when someone HAS had experience in many, many churches, as I have, of the same type (non-liturgical churches), one can deduce pretty quickly what the pattern is.
Now, I am not even lumping all Baptist churches into this category. I have been in a few small Baptist churches that still retain at least a skeleton of liturgy. There actually is a sense of seriousness and respect in the service. Even though I disagree theologically with these churches, they have my utmost respect for doing so.
They are unfortunetly in a minority, and are fast dying off.
The mega-church model is spreading like wildfire even among mainline Protestants. It is replacing a fixed order of worship (something you do) with worshiptainment (something I watch). If I would transport Charles Haddon Spurgeon, one of the most famous of Baptists, into a time machine to the local Baptist mega-church wannabe, the poor guy would have a heart attack and die.
I guess in some ways its to be expected. We live in a short-attention span society now. Even preaching in these churches is like a postscript to the music on stage.
It is a problem that cannot be easily dodged.

I trust your analysis or observation since you have had the experiences. I cannot say such a thing because I have never been a Protestant.

 

[Sandalwood]

I’m not going to put a resume on a public forum because I value my privacy. They were Independent. Southern, American, and Reformed Baptist.

Now, as to the question of generalization. I really don’t feel that is what is being done (at least not by me). I have been in many mainline Protestant denominations, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Disciples of Christ, all but Lutheran (I’ve already threatened to pop in on Jon’s church in NC someday. ) In those mainline Protestant churches I never saw the caos I knew in Baptist and evangelical churches.
When people don’t have an experience with something they can, yes, generalize. I have been in a few Catholic parishes that I would hate a non-Catholic to visit and think all Catholic churches are like that one.
However, when someone HAS had experience in many, many churches, as I have, of the same type (non-liturgical churches), one can deduce pretty quickly what the pattern is.
Now, I am not even lumping all Baptist churches into this category. I have been in a few small Baptist churches that still retain at least a skeleton of liturgy. There actually is a sense of seriousness and respect in the service. Even though I disagree theologically with these churches, they have my utmost respect for doing so.
They are unfortunetly in a minority, and are fast dying off.
The mega-church model is spreading like wildfire even among mainline Protestants. It is replacing a fixed order of worship (something you do) with worshiptainment (something I watch). If I would transport Charles Haddon Spurgeon, one of the most famous of Baptists, into a time machine to the local Baptist mega-church wannabe, the poor guy would have a heart attack and die.
I guess in some ways its to be expected. We live in a short-attention span society now. Even preaching in these churches is like a postscript to the music on stage.
It is a problem that cannot be easily dodged.

I love that my hometown Baptist church is still rather small and not “entertainment”. We never had the “AMEN BROTHER!” shouting going on or the hand raising stuff (isn’t that more Southern Baptist?) We had a very serious and respectful service. It’s still my favorite church to visit when we go home. There’s definitely no entertainment or popular opinion preaching going on there!

 

[AbideWithMe]

I’m not going to put a resume on a public forum because I value my privacy. They were Independent. Southern, American, and Reformed Baptist.

Now, as to the question of generalization. I really don’t feel that is what is being done (at least not by me). I have been in many mainline Protestant denominations, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Disciples of Christ, all but Lutheran (I’ve already threatened to pop in on Jon’s church in NC someday. ) In those mainline Protestant churches I never saw the caos I knew in Baptist and evangelical churches.
When people don’t have an experience with something they can, yes, generalize. I have been in a few Catholic parishes that I would hate a non-Catholic to visit and think all Catholic churches are like that one.
However, when someone HAS had experience in many, many churches, as I have, of the same type (non-liturgical churches), one can deduce pretty quickly what the pattern is.
Now, I am not even lumping all Baptist churches into this category. I have been in a few small Baptist churches that still retain at least a skeleton of liturgy. There actually is a sense of seriousness and respect in the service. Even though I disagree theologically with these churches, they have my utmost respect for doing so.
They are unfortunetly in a minority, and are fast dying off.
The mega-church model is spreading like wildfire even among mainline Protestants. It is replacing a fixed order of worship (something you do) with worshiptainment (something I watch). If I would transport Charles Haddon Spurgeon, one of the most famous of Baptists, into a time machine to the local Baptist mega-church wannabe, the poor guy would have a heart attack and die.
I guess in some ways its to be expected. We live in a short-attention span society now. Even preaching in these churches is like a postscript to the music on stage.
It is a problem that cannot be easily dodged.

JustaServant–

Thanks for filling me in with more information on what kind of Baptist you were before reverting. I wasn’t looking for your resume.

I’m not disagreeing with you about whether completely non-liturgical services are the best thing or not. I am saying though that there are many Evangelical churches which have retained some liturgy----more than a small number that are fast dying off as you say is the case among Baptist churches; and that further, there has been a distinct return to even more liturgy in some of the Evangelical churches that gave up most elements of it. I believe you’re giving an accurate account of your experience as far as it went, but here I am giving an accurate account of what I’ve seen and I feel like it’s going unheard.

You said, “In those mainline churches I never saw the chaos I knew in Baptist and evangelical churches.” I’m puzzled by this statement for a couple of reasons.

First, sometimes churches self-identify as both mainline and Evangelical (in the American sense of the word). When I lived in Philadelphia I went to the well-known Tenth Presbyterian Church, which also the headquarters of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. I’ve seen Tim Keller, a well-known Presbyterian pastor and author, considered an Evangelical. I know from personal acquaintance and from writings that more than a few Methodists self-identify as Evangelicals. I even know/see some Lutherans call themselves Evangelicals, though I think that’s usually considered improper by most Lutherans based on the history of German Pietism. I realize Evangelical is a slippery word, but I’m sometimes puzzled by how I see it used at CAF.

Secondly, I’m puzzled because I’ve never seen a chaotic service in an Evangelical church, ever.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I trust your analysis or observation since you have had the experiences. I cannot say such a thing because I have never been a Protestant.

Nicea—I’m not refuting or dismissing JustaServant’s account of his experiences. I am saying, though, that there’s much more to the story. Can you also trust my observation since I’ve also had significant first hand experience in a variety of Evangelical churches?

I’m not promoting Evangelical churches. There are some bad ones out there to be sure and people can get burnt. I’m just asking for less Evangelical-bashing and less broad-brushing, so that those of us who know how much good we’ve found in Evangelical churches can read at CAF without feeling rightly defensive of our churches.

 

[Patavium]

What are the general points of a Baptist “Liturgy”?

1. Rock Concert Music
2. Powerpoint Presentations
3. Pastor with Jokes, and comments about scriptures in PPT
4. Questions for the audience
5. Pieces of bread, and grape juice once in a while?

How is this worship? This is an extended bible study, or a social gathering.

Are these features uncommon ?

 

[Reuben_J]

manualman:

My (name removed by moderator)ut might be too defensive to be useful as an immediate response unless the fellow is a blunt spoken oaf (like me!).

If the question is one of “How can you find meaning in such empty rituals?” my response would be “because I have learned the difference between spiritual meaning and enthusiasm /entertainment.”

Evangelical “praise and worship” services are heavy on the praise songs and even sometimes spontaneous exclamations of praise. But they tend to ignore the ‘worship’ aspect. In my (admittedly limited) experience, they seem to think that ‘praise’ is the fast paced tunes that make you excited and ‘worship’ is the slow paced tunes that make you teary. It’s all about us and how we feel. Doesn’t that get old? Don’t you ever yearn to participate in worship where the focus is on God, on His revelation, on His Incarnation as Christ and on the amazing gift He has given us? One which is not dependent on emotional manipulation techniques and group-feel experiences? That’s what mass is. You don’t come away feeling wowwed and entertained because that’s not the PURPOSE. The purpose is to BRING yourself and offer yourself in worship and sacrifice in union with the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary. To be remade and transformed by that participation. It’s NOT entertaining. It’s worship. Sacrifice is never fun, but it is the basis of actual love. Entertainment is not.

JustaServant:

Typical Baptist church ritual:
Greeting.
Opening song.
Announcments.
2nd Song.
Offering (with song).
Special music.
Sermon.
Final song with invitation (a very sacramental and liturgical practice I might add).
Closing prayer.
Gossip in the parking lot.

Ah, so this is all to it? I mean, I can go to my prayer meeting, and I would get all this. No, I do not mean to look down on their service, in fact, like my prayer meeting it is a Spirit filled gathering and I can say it is upbuilding. It can be emotionally fulfilling too. But it is nothing like the mass.

Gathering like this, very often depends on the ‘anointing’ of the music ministry and the presiding leader who sometimes ‘break the word’, which is not very different from a sermon. Very often this depends also on the level of the participation by the participants. It can be very dry if the participants are not very enthusiastic or the music ministry chooses inappropriate songs and the one who breaks the word is a boring speaker. So yes, service like this, depends very much on the participants and the leaders to make it ‘emotionally’ satisfying.

But the mass is a different kind of experience. The worship and the prayer you get here is simply what do you not experience in an evangelistic service. The depth and the profound worship in the mass in fact can give you even deeper spiritual experience. As an example, it is not unusual that tears would flow as the Lord speaks to me at any time during the mass to address my needs and answers my queries and prayers.

If mass is a ritual, I would want this ritual anyday anytime. I enjoy the prayer meeting too but I would be missing something even more beautiful if I do not have the mass.

God bless.

 

[JustaServant]

I’m not disagreeing with you about whether completely non-liturgical services are the best thing or not. I am saying though that there are many Evangelical churches which have retained some liturgy----more than a small number that are fast dying off as you say is the case among Baptist churches; and that further,** there has been a distinct return to even more liturgy in some of the Evangelical churches that gave up most elements of it. **I believe you’re giving an accurate account of your experience as far as it went, but here I am giving an accurate account of what I’ve seen and I feel like it’s going unheard.

There is within evangelical churches today a desire to return to order. I read a book several years ago called “Ancient-Future Faith” by Robert Webber. Webber basis his ideas on the Episcopal model. It’s a good direction for many churches to go in. They retain their music and preaching, and at the same time get the people used to things being done “decently and in order”. My only concern (at the time still I was still a Baptist) with the movement was: will some evangelical churches take it as a kind of “worship fad”, and discard it when they grow tired of it?
There is a difference in attitude with liturgical churches and non-liturgical churches. Each group looks at liturgy (the “ritual” of the OP) differently. Liturgical churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopal, Lutheran) look at liturgy as a necessity, not something we “try for a while” to see if it works. If these churches see the necessity of liturgy, there will be a change in direction for them (at least in terms of worship). If they do not, they could very well discard it and return to worshiptainment.
Only time will tell.
I can tell you around here worshiptainment is BIG. What passes for a megachurch in our town has an ad on the local cable channel that looked like they were advertising a rock concert. I worked with a guy who goes to that church. He bragged about the “million dollar sound system” they now have.
Is God deaf? He needs a “millon dollar sound system” now? A piano, organ, guitar or even a simple choir won’t do any more? Hmmm. Reminds me of a story in OT about a contest between God and Baal. I think Elijah asked the same question…
How we worship was laid out by God. Maybe some of these churches should see what He thinks before they get a “millon dollar sound system”.

 

[JustaServant]

You said, “In those mainline churches I never saw the chaos I knew in Baptist and evangelical churches.” I’m puzzled by this statement for a couple of reasons.

First, sometimes churches self-identify as both mainline and Evangelical (in the American sense of the word). When I lived in Philadelphia I went to the well-known Tenth Presbyterian Church, which also the headquarters of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. I’ve seen Tim Keller, a well-known Presbyterian pastor and author, considered an Evangelical. I know from personal acquaintance and from writings that more than a few Methodists self-identify as Evangelicals. I even know/see some Lutherans call themselves Evangelicals, though I think that’s usually considered improper by most Lutherans based on the history of German Pietism. I realize Evangelical is a slippery word, but I’m sometimes puzzled by how I see it used at CAF.

Secondly, I’m puzzled because I’ve never seen a chaotic service in an Evangelical church, ever.

It sounds like you have been around more Reformed type evangelicals. A couple churches I associated with years ago were with the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. I only encountered Reformed churches late in my walk as a Protestant. I am familair with Keller. Did he write a few books? Throw out some titles to me so I dust the cobwebs in my brain.
The Reformed emphasize the mind over emotion. Different churches do different things. Some of the Reformed churches are somewhat liturgical. Its more of a return to Reformation principals with the emphasis on preaching.
There are a few I know of who have tried to combine Reformed teaching with “worshiptainment”, and its not a good match. One or the other gives in.
And since young people prefer the music, guess which that is…

P.S. Caos was the wrong word. Perhaps “without process” or “disjointed” would be better. It lacks a central purpose.

 

[Cat]

Nicea—I’m not refuting or dismissing JustaServant’s account of his experiences. I am saying, though, that there’s much more to the story. Can you also trust my observation since I’ve also had significant first hand experience in a variety of Evangelical churches?

I’m not promoting Evangelical churches. There are some bad ones out there to be sure and people can get burnt. I’m just asking for less Evangelical-bashing and less broad-brushing, so that those of us who know how much good we’ve found in Evangelical churches can read at CAF without feeling rightly defensive of our churches.

The word “evangelical” is such a broad one that many “styles” of Protestants are included. Certainly JustaServant is correct in their description of certain evangelical churches and people, especially the Pentecostal sects.

But many of the rest of us who grew up in evangelical churches had an entirely different experience, and our experiences should be trusted, too. I spent 47 years in these churches, and until the last few years, found much love and peace and yes, decorum in the worship.

In fact, in the Conference Baptist denomination in which I grew up, “emotionalism” was discouraged, even condemned, and we were taught the “Fact, Faith, Feeling” model.

This was an invaluable help to me when I was investigating the Catholic Church. I KNEW that I shouldn’t rely on my feelings, or on the “entertainment level” of the Mass to assess whether the Church was legitimate or not. I KNEW that I needed to examine the FACTS first, and then have FAITH, and that the feelings may or may not follow. This knowledge, taught to me by my evangelical Protestant church, helped me to get to a place where I accepted the Catholic Church as the True Church of Jesus Christ.

This Fact/Faith/Feeling model has been a tremendous help to me in the Catholic Church, because truly this is not an “entertaining” Church, and faith is required to be able to accept the Truth of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

In fact, I would suggest to the OP that they consider asking their friend about Fact/Faith/Feeling. (Always keep in mind that there is a wide variety of Baptists, and they are NOT at all in agreement.) If they are one of the “Baptists” who accept this model (tell them that it comes from Campus Crusade for Christ founder, Dr. Bill Bright), then ask them to begin by examining the FACTS about the Catholic Church. If they are willing to do that, then please give them some of the wonderful apologetic books written by contemporary apologists who are converts from Protestantism.

I would recommend Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie. Also, I think the books and CDs by Tim Staples (a CAF apologist) are excellent for evangelical Protestants. Dr. Scott Hahn’s books are probably better for mainline Protestants, or more specifically, those Protestants who have a Calvinist background (which does include many evangelical Protestants, BTW–John Calvin is “trendy” at the moment among evangelical Protestants, especially among the young people.)

 

[JustaServant]

I love that my hometown Baptist church is still rather small and not “entertainment”. We never had the “AMEN BROTHER!” shouting going on or the hand raising stuff (isn’t that more Southern Baptist?) We had a very serious and respectful service. It’s still my favorite church to visit when we go home. There’s definitely no entertainment or popular opinion preaching going on there!

If I were Protestant again (and there is little chance of that), give me a tiny church with a modest choir, a old piano and an honest pastor anyday over these overblown entertainment centers.

 

[AbideWithMe]

There is within evangelical churches today a desire to return to order. I read a book several years ago called “Ancient-Future Faith” by Robert Webber. Webber basis his ideas on the Episcopal model. It’s a good direction for many churches to go in. They retain their music and preaching, and at the same time get the people used to things being done “decently and in order”. My only concern (at the time still I was still a Baptist) with the movement was: will some evangelical churches take it as a kind of “worship fad”, and discard it when they grow tired of it?
There is a difference in attitude with liturgical churches and non-liturgical churches. Each group looks at liturgy (the “ritual” of the OP) differently. Liturgical churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopal, Lutheran) look at liturgy as a necessity, not something we “try for a while” to see if it works. If these churches see the necessity of liturgy, there will be a change in direction for them (at least in terms of worship). If they do not, they could very well discard it and return to worshiptainment.
Only time will tell.
I can tell you around here worshiptainment is BIG. What passes for a megachurch in our town has an ad on the local cable channel that looked like they were advertising a rock concert. I worked with a guy who goes to that church. He bragged about the “million dollar sound system” they now have.
Is God deaf? He needs a “millon dollar sound system” now? A piano, organ, guitar or even a simple choir won’t do any more? Hmmm. Reminds me of a story in OT about a contest between God and Baal. I think Elijah asked the same question…
How we worship was laid out by God. Maybe some of these churches should see what He thinks before they get a “millon dollar sound system”.

JustaServant—

You have a good point regarding the necessity of worship in liturgical churches compared to how some Evangelical churches may regard it as a fad to try out. I can only say that the Evangelical church I grew up in always kept quite a lot of liturgy, and I greatly value the good effect it has on me even today—the responsive readings, written prayers rather than “Jesus, we just…” prayers, colorful ceremonies relating to the church seasons, and especially the great old hymns which included the ancient ones as well----all those things got deep into me a child and today they are some of the strongest things to recall me back to God. I was almost conditioned–in a good way, not a brain-washing sort of way—by the unchanging steadiness of these things, so that even today church bells ringing as I walk through an unfamiliar town or familiar hymns being played from a bell tower act almost in a Pavlovian way to melt my heart as they call me to remember how much of God’s faithfulness and
mercy I’ve seen over my nearly half a century of sometimes doing really stupid things.

I do see some Evangelical churches wising up about the need for a steady liturgy, because the push away from it indeed hasn’t worked out well to keep children in the church. By catering to kids too much with changing fads, that inner draw of early memories and associations that brings young adults back into the church is lost. I do see Evangelicals discussing this, I do hope too that more churches take to it to heart. It’s been a huge gift to me that I grew up in a church with large remnents of liturgy. (It was Evangelical Congregational—Methodist based, not Reformed. In my very heavily Pennsylvania German area of southeast PA, quite a few Lutheran/Reformed/Pietist congregations set aside some differences to form around a need for services in German, so on my mom’s side I have about 300 years of that behind me as well as the Methodist influence…no Baptists in my family, though.)

A thoughtful post from you, JustaServant. Thank you. I feel “heard”. I’m not contesting your experience, and I actually agree with most of your criticisms, but I just meant to point out that significant parts of the American Evangelical world haven’t fallen into the megachurch entertainment mistake.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It sounds like you have been around more Reformed type evangelicals. A couple churches I associated with years ago were with the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. I only encountered Reformed churches late in my walk as a Protestant. I am familair with Keller. Did he write a few books? Throw out some titles to me so I dust the cobwebs in my brain.
The Reformed emphasize the mind over emotion. Different churches do different things. Some of the Reformed churches are somewhat liturgical. Its more of a return to Reformation principals with the emphasis on preaching.
There are a few I know of who have tried to combine Reformed teaching with “worshiptainment”, and its not a good match. One or the other gives in.
And since young people prefer the music, guess which that is…

P.S. Caos was the wrong word. Perhaps “without process” or “disjointed” would be better. It lacks a central purpose.

Tim Keller’s best known book is The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The word “evangelical” is such a broad one that many “styles” of Protestants are included. Certainly JustaServant is correct in their description of certain evangelical churches and people, especially the Pentecostal sects.

But many of the rest of us who grew up in evangelical churches had an entirely different experience, and our experiences should be trusted, too. I spent 47 years in these churches, and until the last few years, found much love and peace and yes, decorum in the worship.

In fact, in the Conference Baptist denomination in which I grew up, “emotionalism” was discouraged, even condemned, and we were taught the “Fact, Faith, Feeling” model.

This was an invaluable help to me when I was investigating the Catholic Church. I KNEW that I shouldn’t rely on my feelings, or on the “entertainment level” of the Mass to assess whether the Church was legitimate or not. I KNEW that I needed to examine the FACTS first, and then have FAITH, and that the feelings may or may not follow. This knowledge, taught to me by my evangelical Protestant church, helped me to get to a place where I accepted the Catholic Church as the True Church of Jesus Christ.

This Fact/Faith/Feeling model has been a tremendous help to me in the Catholic Church, because truly this is not an “entertaining” Church, and faith is required to be able to accept the Truth of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

In fact, I would suggest to the OP that they consider asking their friend about Fact/Faith/Feeling. (Always keep in mind that there is a wide variety of Baptists, and they are NOT at all in agreement.) If they are one of the “Baptists” who accept this model (tell them that it comes from Campus Crusade for Christ founder, Dr. Bill Bright), then ask them to begin by examining the FACTS about the Catholic Church. If they are willing to do that, then please give them some of the wonderful apologetic books written by contemporary apologists who are converts from Protestantism.

I would recommend Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie. Also, I think the books and CDs by Tim Staples (a CAF apologist) are excellent for evangelical Protestants. Dr. Scott Hahn’s books are probably better for mainline Protestants, or more specifically, those Protestants who have a Calvinist background (which does include many evangelical Protestants, BTW–John Calvin is “trendy” at the moment among evangelical Protestants, especially among the young people.)

A well-written post, Cat.

 

[manualman]

Manualman—

You’ve made a good point about generalizations sometimes being useful. However, it seems to me that rather than taking a large sampling of Evangelicals to help you form your judgment, you’re noting the problems of a portion (perhaps the loudest and pushiest portion) and judging it as though it was representative of the whole or the majority. Meanwhile, as one of the many Evangelicals for whom your critique is inaccurate, I read this “Evangelical as whipping boy for Christianity” stuff here at CAF and I’m annoyed.

You make a good point that my experience is limited and not representative of the entire evangelical population. But then, how could it be, I’m one guy. And I think you’ll notice that I acknowledge my limitations in each of those posts that annoyed you.

But I must defend myself and my impressions to a certain extent. My experience is hardly limited to encountering a few Chick tracts on my windshield from time to time. I spent four years in college praying, studying, singing and not a few times arguing with an evangelical group called the Navigators (similar to Campus Crusade and Intervarsity, but they consider themselves a bit more hard core disciples). Out of courtesy, I attended the services of several members over the years, including Christian & Missionary Alliance, an LCMS parish (admittedly my favorite, though not as liturgical as some LCMS parishes I’ve seen since), Baptist and a nondenom ‘jumbo’ church (it was Madison, WI - ‘mega’ hardly applies!). Of the group of 50 or so students I knew well almost half were originally raised catholic. Part of that is our fault, admittedly, for doing a negligent job of evangelization and catechesis. But there is a mean streak that runs through evangelical circles that delights in ‘converting’ catholics. It’s not isolated, it’s systemic. I can’t tell you the number of times that earnest, believing, otherwise holy people have tried to ‘save’ me from the Whore of Babylon. And it does color my perception because I saw clearly that what attracted catholics to those groups was the emotionalism of community and praise music, not the clarion ring of doctrinal truth and consistency with the faith handed down to the apostles by Christ himself. They THOUGHT it was, and they considered themselves earnest seekers of truth, but it was all so shallow. Their idea of context was reading the whole chapter instead of isolated verses. They had no appreciation for the early fathers (to the contrary often considering them dangerous substitutes for the bible), they had no awareness of how uniquely modern American their theology was, nor how foreign it would be to any christians of any earlier era. They were uninterested in considering that perhaps being a person 2,000 years removed from Christ, in an utterly different culture and speaking an utterly different language that perhaps one today needs MORE (name removed by moderator)ut on the meaning of difficult passages than just what is written in the text itself.

I’m fully aware that not all evangelicals are this way and I’m glad to see that you’re one who is different. But I’ve seen what I’ve seen and I get rather cranky when I hear about such people putting down Holy Mother Church as occurred in the experience of the OP here. Sometimes a putdown warrants a snappy comeback if the original person making the putdown is ignorant of what he is criticizing and unaware of the shallowness of his own position. Such a response can (to some people in the right situations) be a reality check.

 

[losh14]

I think there are very different modes of worship. Your friend is used to a free-form, you have chosen one that is liturgical. Neither is wrong. Certainly liturgical worship practiced by Jews and ordained by God through Moses has been practiced for 3,500 years or more.

I’d talk about the horizontal connection. Liturgy can be seen by non-liturgical Christians as vertical worship only, the pastor talking to God on behalf of a people who are, at best, passive observers. Think of what would happen in a Baptist or non-denominational congregation if the sermon, instead of being instructive to the congregants, was instead addressed as a 20-minute series of prayers to the Lord?

What’s going on in your mind and heart as the liturgy progresses? That’s a fertile topic for conversation. This is where the difference between formal and informal prayer becomes important. Liturgical prayers, being formal and established, center one upon the teachings being conveyed.

Think about the Our Father, a prayer that puts the Lord at the center and asks Him humbly to keep His Promises and provide only what we need. It posits a Creature-Creator relationship, and expresses our total dependence upon and trust in God. When we say it in community it becomes the prayer of the Church, the expression of a people led by Christ seeking, despite our differences, the Will of the Father.

Could you say an informal prayer commending yourself to the Lord and expressing your belief? Certainly, and it could be beautiful too:

“Lord Jesus Christ, I trust in You. Never let me go, Lord, but keep me close to You. I want to serve You with my entire self. Help me to live in a way that shows at all times I am Your disciple. I believe in Your Scripture, and I look forward to the defeat of the Enemy and seeing You come in Your Glory. Jesus, I love you. Amen.”

But you wouldn’t say it out loud in community any more than you’d have three dozen congregants debating simultaneously the sermon while the pastor gives it.

Different modes, different approaches, neither bad and, I’d argue, you need both in your life.

 

[andrewstx]

I have visited Broadway Baptistin Ft Worth TX. They are affiliated with both the American Baptist Churches, and the Southern Baptist convention.

This church was began as a reaction to First Baptist’s becoming more and more fundamental over the years, and waas founded in the early 20th century.

Broadway Baptist is much more main-line than most Baptist churches, and they incorporate elements of Liturgy.

The church is beautiful with a central raised altar with rederos… Instead of the usual Baptist practice of putting an ambo centrally with a “Lords Supper table” on the floor.

The even have a huge award winning pipe organ, that is played it’self, instead of competing with a piano.

 

[JustaServant]

A thoughtful post from you, JustaServant. Thank you. I feel “heard”. I’m not contesting your experience, and I actually agree with most of your criticisms, but I just meant to point out that significant parts of the American Evangelical world haven’t fallen into the megachurch entertainment mistake.

I certainly hope they don’t, but education moves slower than fads. And before you know it, the fads are over and leave nothing but desolation in their wake.

As for generalizing. Be aware there are two kinds of Catholics on CAF:

1. Those who are cradle Catholic who have had only limited experiences with Protestatnts. If you have only had one or two experiences in an evangelical church, you might imagine they’re all like that. Like I said earlier, there are some Catholic parishes I would never bring a non-Catholic to for fear they would have a similar reaction.
2. Those who are either converts or (in my case) reverts. We can get rather defensive with the “broad brush” because we know what we are talking about. There was a Baptist on CAF (now banned) who essentially called us liars and painted a picture of the Baptist world that I and a few others knew were not accurate (probably to “win souls to Jesus”). So we probably have a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Contarini]

A friend of mine, who is Baptist, is having a sort of crisis of faith so I invited him to attend church with me last Sunday; I thought a different perspective might help him out. I wasn’t trying to convert him, as I firmly believe one’s spiritual journey is their own to travel.

After Mass, we got in the car and I asked him what he thought. He asked me how I could attend a church that was so ritualistic and empty. I empathized with his sentiments because I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church and have heard this criticism many times.

I told him that he couldn’t compare a Baptist service to an Episcopal service; the two are too different. A Baptist service is for praise and worship, and he should think of an Episcopal Mass, from procession to recession, as one long prayer.

I didn’t know what to say; I was speaking off the cuff. What should I have said?

I don’t see how that’s even worth answering.

If he thinks ritual is empty, pray for him and let him go his way.

Either people feel hunger for liturgy or they don’t.

Myself, I find non-liturgical worship terribly “empty”–a lot of well-meaning people babbling away as if their thoughts and feelings were what most mattered. I know that’s rude and uncharitable–there is much value in extemporaneous prayer–but after 14 years of Anglicanism I find it pretty hard to have patience with this kind of anti-ritual rhetoric, when my own prejudices run quite the other way.

You might, just to unsettle him, try citing Matt. 6:7 and pointing out that “thinking they will be heard by their many words” fits the typical evangelical extemporaneous prayer a lot better than an Anglican collect. . . .

Or, more constructively, if you really want to engage this, you could point out the Biblical and theological content of the liturgy. You might also point out that we pray with the Church’s words (in public worship) because we profess the Church’s faith. That is very helpful when we have “crises of faith,” as you say he is. I can say the Creed even if I’m struggling with what I believe, because it’s the faith of the Church and I choose to trust the Church.

But that may not be helpful to him. He just may not be in a place where the liturgy can speak to him.

Edwin

 

[CopticChristian]

I certainly hope they don’t, but education moves slower than fads. And before you know it, the fads are over and leave nothing but desolation in their wake.

As for generalizing. Be aware there are two kinds of Catholics on CAF:

1. Those who are cradle Catholic who have had only limited experiences with Protestatnts. If you have only had one or two experiences in an evangelical church, you might imagine they’re all like that. Like I said earlier, there are some Catholic parishes I would never bring a non-Catholic to for fear they would have a similar reaction.
2. Those who are either converts or (in my case) reverts. We can get rather defensive with the “broad brush” because we know what we are talking about. There was a Baptist on CAF (now banned) who essentially called us liars and painted a picture of the Baptist world that I and a few others knew were not accurate (probably to “win souls to Jesus”). So we probably have a knee-jerk reaction.

Just,

I feel left out. Here I am a Catholic all my life. Here I am not a convert or a revert. Here I am having a great deal of Experience in Protesant thought, evangelized to the extent that I made it a study for the past 30 years. I attended numerous services, Bible studies, stadiums, read, listened and still study…Wow…you just left me hanging in the breezee…could you please create another category for me…

thanks…